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Author Topic: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System  (Read 5578 times)

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Offline mountainhop

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2022, 04:21:52 PM »
coming along. got the gooseneck and was able to do a variety of tests. not going to type out all here until posts start going through, which hasnt happened since i had to start a new acct.

lets just say the audio tests exceeded my expectations

mounting sans gooseneck is coming along. pics of a crude mount are below but say they are yet to be approved by moderator so you probably cant see them yet.

 now that i have the threads sized im working on a more elegant solution, stay tuned

--------------

edit: giving up on attachments images still "awaiting approval" days later, here's an imgur link

https://imgur.com/a/l7QHRF9

« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 11:30:50 AM by mountainhop »

Offline mountainhop

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2022, 09:27:25 AM »
a few more details now that my posts are working

test setup: KK14 capsule+MCM100 gooseneck+AC31 cable (sennheiser style trs)

microdot cables arent available anywhere yet so i had to do my microdot testing with some pigtails and alligator clips

first test i did was just PIP on the A10 - it worked well and i could not see any audible or visual distortion in the waveform by generating the loudest sound i could with a monitor. also worked with a church ugly 9V to similar results

for microdot tests i used two pieces of gear. it worked fine on an MMA6000, ran a KK14 on one channel and a 4011+MMP-G on the other. the 4011 was about 10dB more sensitive as expected, as the KK14 are very low sens - 3.6 mv/Pa vs the typical ~11mV/Pa for a 4011.

so that's a consideration. 4060s are around 20 mV/Pa, 4061s about 6mV/Pa. the 4071 "extreme" version is 2mV/Pa. typically as sensitivity goes down, self-noise goes up. that 406x series are 23, 26, and 33 dBA self-noise respectively. of course diaphragm size helps, and the 11mV/PA 4011s clock in at 18 dB.

The KK14 is somewhere in between the miniatures and a ("full size" for our typical use) condensor. its 3.6 mV/PA low-sens comes in at a respectable 23 dBA. so, directionality aside, it has a noise floor as low as a 4060, yet a max SPL higher than a 4061. So pretty ideal for our application

ok so back to the tests, with the gain set 10dB higher for the neumann, i tested both an audio source then put it outside to record 'silence' (rural area at night=pretty quiet). the resulting noise looked the same on both, the noise floor was below ambient. id have to build a soundproof box to test them better than that (and i might...dont threaten me with a good time!)

so a pretty good test if it can hang with a 4011. sound-wise they were comparable but i realize the limitations of a home test so ill save that for a real venue test.

ok so on to the d:vice. unfortunately it wasn't plug and play. the kk14 is higher impedance and lower current draw than either of the dpa microdot mics, and the d:vice wouldnt recognize it. easily defeated with the addition of a load resistor in parallel, so this would need to be built into the cabling. i could be wrong, but my guess is the microdot accessory cable is a straight wire and it wouldn't make a difference if i had the actual cable. Again it works fine with a passive pre like the MMA6000 but the d:vice needs to see the right load to fire up.

So if you want an off-the-shelf solution for the d:vice this isnt it, and i wouldn't recommend doubling the price of your capsule by adding a gooseneck and cable anyway. measuring the gooseneck, it appears completely passive. resistance was 5 ohms including the extension cable, and the continuity/diode test worked both ways.

ive already sized the threads per the pic above and have some additional parts on the way including what i need to make that center contact. there's enough real estate inside the cap that i should be able to make cable ends that are darn near flush with the back of the cap. like 3/16" or less deep with a side cable exit 

i have a show on friday and will try to take it with me and find a loud AF spot to test it with the A10 with and without the ugly BB. thats the only real field-worthy setup i have right now and i will be wired up with my d:vice so i dont want to be tinkering with that inside

while it did seem to work great on  PIP with the A10 (likely due to the capsule's low current consumption) keep in mind the two caveats:
1. i am not able to generate super loud sounds at home
2. that is still only one capsule and the A10 powering two caps might look different as its probably one current-limited power rail split to 2 channels

so i can do a kinda test this week but not a full test until i build out my own cable ends, id rather not buy another gooseneck right now. That said im confident that if it works that well on PIP that battery solution would be light. a 28A would run a pair of these forever

will report back
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 09:36:32 AM by mountainhop »

Offline mountainhop

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2022, 09:47:48 AM »

I'm very curious about how these will perform at any kind of distance.

The frequency graph https://en-de.neumann.com/kk-14#technical-data shows linear response at 15cm distance down to 20hz but the "farfield" response shows significant roll off starting at 350hz and down to -20dB at 20hz.

This is what you want to limit proximity effect when you are close miking an instrument but not necessarily what you want when you are more than a few feet away from the source.

not uncommon with pressure gradient condensers

from another thread:
4011 cardioid


not *that* much different than the KK14, though they dont tell us what distance "freefield" is. assuming its 1m or more its not much different than we would expect from the 4011... its always a challenge to compare different mfr's measurements apples-to-apples... we will see when we put it in an actual room




« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 09:50:47 AM by mountainhop »

Offline DSatz

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2022, 07:17:17 AM »
- All pressure gradient microphones have proximity effect, not only condensers (unless we get into "variable-D" microphones which no one here is using TTBMK).

- "Free field" effectively means direct and anechoic rather than any particular measuring distance. It's "free" in the sense of "unobstructed", with room boundaries considered as obstructions if any sound bounces off of them and then reaches the microphone indirectly.

- The DIN/IEC standard refers to "plane wave" conditions, which would mean that no proximity effect should be included at all. But nothing in the real world generates true plane waves, so the effect can only be approximated. Proximity effect trails off gradually as you get farther away from the sound source, though, and typically is still evident at 1 meter, assuming a point source or the like. To reduce it to where it's negligible, you would generally need a greater distance, depending on the geometry of the capsule. This is particularly true for supercardioid or figure-8 patterns, where the effect is greater than for an equivalent cardioid, and for larger microphones in general.

The thing is, I know of no manufacturer that follows this rule to the letter. Neumann, Schoeps, Sennheiser, I believe AKG when they still existed, and many/most other European manufacturers of studio microphones as well as some in other countries, generally have used a 1-meter (or calculated equivalent) measurement distance. They do it because they have always done it and because the others are doing it and they don't want to be the only one that looks bad.

Nowadays some manufacturers specify different models differently, depending on the intended application. Microphones designed for very close miking might be measured at 15 or 30 cm (about 6 or 12 inches). This makes the graphs easier to interpret for people who really use microphones at such distances. But such graphs are difficult to interpret for other miking distances, and can deceive those who don't understand the issue, or who set their concern aside out of sheer enthusiasm when they see a bright, shiny object that they want to own. (Of course that could never happen here ...)

Even if you know what measurement distance was used (which the manufacturers don't often tell you), there's no set formula for converting a 15 or 30 cm curve to a 1-meter curve. It depends, as I said, on the acoustical design and physical dimensions of the capsule. So I'm always glad when a manufacturer indicates the low-frequency response at various distances.

--best regards
« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 01:29:27 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Popmarter

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2022, 12:17:21 AM »
what is that? 🤤
Recorders: SD MixPre 3 II; Sony A10; Edirol R44; Sony M10; Sony WM-D6; Edirol R-09HR; iRiver IHP-120; Sharp MD-MT20; Sharp MD-MT190
Microphones: Nevaton MC59/S (cards); Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 7.4mod (cards); AT831 (cards); Nakamichi CM300 (all CP's); Soundman OKM II Rock Studios
Preamps: Beyerdynamic MV100; JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b; Naiant IPA; Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use

Offline mountainhop

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2022, 05:44:14 AM »
its a work in progress of the first prototype of a small cable end to replace the gooseneck - a part that otherwise doesn't yet exist in nature (that we know of)

Offline Popmarter

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2022, 10:54:05 AM »
so great you do this, have you tried them in the field yet?
Recorders: SD MixPre 3 II; Sony A10; Edirol R44; Sony M10; Sony WM-D6; Edirol R-09HR; iRiver IHP-120; Sharp MD-MT20; Sharp MD-MT190
Microphones: Nevaton MC59/S (cards); Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 7.4mod (cards); AT831 (cards); Nakamichi CM300 (all CP's); Soundman OKM II Rock Studios
Preamps: Beyerdynamic MV100; JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b; Naiant IPA; Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use

Offline mountainhop

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2022, 01:24:21 PM »
so great you do this, have you tried them in the field yet?
i only had one gooseneck and i handheld it at points in a recent gig where i had a stereo pair of subcards in my hat. it was extremely loud stack taping situation and it didnt overload. beyond that im reserving judgement on overall sound until i can give it a fair fight as a stereo pair next to another pair of cardioids

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2022, 02:12:19 PM »
Nice work and exploration of these thus far, Mountainhop.

I somehow missed this thread when it originated, but happy to find, join and follow it now. The KK14 is a very cool development that strongly piques my interest as it makes for a potentially attractive alternative to the DPA 4098H miniature supercardioids I currently employ in my surround/stereo recording rig (5 of 8 total channels) .

A few comments:
This microphone system appears designed to address market currently dominated by the now ubiquitous miniature DPA goose-neck directional mics intended to be clamped directly to instruments.  Because of that, in addition to the mounts and goosenecks, the measurements, response tailoring, and SPL handling all reflect that kind of close-mounted use.   In comparison to the DPA "on-instrument" mics, the DPA 4098H I use is (was?) designed for installed hanging choir microphone and podium applications.  As such it has a somewhat higher sensitivity, lower self-noise and max SPL (think 4060 verses 4061) and uses a slightly longer tiny interference tube grid, yet otherwise essentially shares the same design lineage.

In our concert taper applications, the KK14's response is likely to produce a very similar low-frequency proximity roll off in comparison to the DPA 4098, producing a "clean and lean" sound direct to the recorder.  In my experience that proximity roll off is very linear and can be rather easily compensated for with EQ.  Sometimes with overdriven PA bass the inherent proximity roll off at typical taper distances is just about right on its own - in any case it is less severe, more musical, and easier to manage than the insertion of a low-cut filter.  I use 4098 in combination with a pair of 4061 omnis to achieve flexibility over LF response and  also collective pattern at the array level, and could not effectively run an 8 channel array if the microphones were not miniature.

..beyond that im reserving judgement on overall sound until i can give it a fair fight as a stereo pair next to another pair of cardioids

That's what it takes.  ..along with LF EQ as long as one is open to doing so.  I used MG M21 supercards as comparison reference when initially assessing the DPA 4098H.



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Offline rigpimp

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2022, 04:26:30 PM »
Marking the thread so I can geek out with everyone else from a safe distance.  Thank you for your work mountainhop.  I noticed your old account died and a new one went up so I am glad to see you are back.
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Sony PCM-A10
Playback: Jolida 1501 Hybrid > McIntosh MX 130 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR, or Creek OBH-11 > Sennheiser HD700
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider
https://archive.org/details/thespps

Offline aaronji

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2022, 04:43:52 PM »
I noticed your old account died and a new one went up so I am glad to see you are back.

His old account is still active, it appears...

Offline mountainhop

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2022, 05:56:04 PM »
Nice work and exploration of these thus far, Mountainhop.

I somehow missed this thread when it originated, but happy to find, join and follow it now. The KK14 is a very cool development that strongly piques my interest as it makes for a potentially attractive alternative to the DPA 4098H miniature supercardioids I currently employ in my surround/stereo recording rig (5 of 8 total channels) .

A few comments:
This microphone system appears designed to address market currently dominated by the now ubiquitous miniature DPA goose-neck directional mics intended to be clamped directly to instruments.  Because of that, in addition to the mounts and goosenecks, the measurements, response tailoring, and SPL handling all reflect that kind of close-mounted use.   In comparison to the DPA "on-instrument" mics, the DPA 4098H I use is (was?) designed for installed hanging choir microphone and podium applications.  As such it has a somewhat higher sensitivity, lower self-noise and max SPL (think 4060 verses 4061) and uses a slightly longer tiny interference tube grid, yet otherwise essentially shares the same design lineage.

In our concert taper applications, the KK14's response is likely to produce a very similar low-frequency proximity roll off in comparison to the DPA 4098, producing a "clean and lean" sound direct to the recorder.  In my experience that proximity roll off is very linear and can be rather easily compensated for with EQ.  Sometimes with overdriven PA bass the inherent proximity roll off at typical taper distances is just about right on its own - in any case it is less severe, more musical, and easier to manage than the insertion of a low-cut filter.  I use 4098 in combination with a pair of 4061 omnis to achieve flexibility over LF response and  also collective pattern at the array level, and could not effectively run an 8 channel array if the microphones were not miniature.

..beyond that im reserving judgement on overall sound until i can give it a fair fight as a stereo pair next to another pair of cardioids

That's what it takes.  ..along with LF EQ as long as one is open to doing so.  I used MG M21 supercards as comparison reference when initially assessing the DPA 4098H.

well these are cards not supercards of course

the 4099 (similar to 4098) always seemed to have a strange response/pattern to my ears that wasnt ideal for our application. not sure if that was due to the tight pattern or the interference tube design. the interference tubes are somewhat delicate for our use as well

as you know, pattern alone doesnt make a mic as it is frequency dependent, and in ambient/room situations that can certainly add color, for better or worse

but youre right, these do appear far more linear in LF response, if neumanns plot is to be believed

Marking the thread so I can geek out with everyone else from a safe distance.  Thank you for your work mountainhop.  I noticed your old account died and a new one went up so I am glad to see you are back.
yeah those few dozen posts are orphaned, which makes searching a little more challenging, but theyre still there it seems. not a lot of content in any case, and largely in same threads
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 05:58:32 PM by mountainhop »

Offline mountainhop

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« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 11:49:34 AM by mountainhop »

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Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Sony PCM-A10
Playback: Jolida 1501 Hybrid > McIntosh MX 130 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR, or Creek OBH-11 > Sennheiser HD700
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider
https://archive.org/details/thespps

Offline mountainhop

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2022, 11:51:14 AM »
good prototype i need to find some more appropriate cable like some dpa 1.6mm or 2.2mm microdot

 

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