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Offline dueling

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Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« on: March 29, 2022, 11:26:26 AM »
Any ideas or direction here would be appreciated.  I picked up a pair of mk41's to run alongside my mk4v's (>MixPre6II) and am looking for a mount, and best configuration.   Wondering what direction I should go in?  Shapeways?  etc?  Mostly taping in midsize venues, but will also be taping outdoors at Dillon Amp and Red Rocks in August (Goose).

Thanks!
Schoeps MK4v's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
Schoeps MK41's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
DPA 4015's > MMP-ER Modular Active Rear Cable > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2022, 12:01:44 PM »
What mic amps are you using? Schoeps, nbob actives, etc.

If nbobs, I like the adjustable DINa mount SRS sells on ebay

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133333134534?hash=item1f0b462cc6:g:X-YAAOSwkiVeRUop
« Last Edit: March 29, 2022, 12:17:40 PM by DavidPuddy »

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2022, 12:27:15 PM »
Nbob actives, yes.  This looks great! but also wondering if there is an all in one solution?  There are some shapeways mounts that hold two sets at once, just not sure if any of them would work for this 4v+41 combo?  Thank you!
Schoeps MK4v's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
Schoeps MK41's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
DPA 4015's > MMP-ER Modular Active Rear Cable > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2022, 01:19:30 PM »
[..]I picked up a pair of mk41's to run alongside my mk4v's (>MixPre6II)[..]

If running both pairs so as to be able to compare the two and have the ability to choose whichever pair worked better each time, in general you'll want to use a stereo configuration that uses slightly less angle between mk41's, or slightly less spacing between them, in comparison to whatever configuration you like best when using the mk4v's, in order to make a recording that has similar width and imaging properties.

Once you determine what those two configurations are, Shapeways may be able to make you a single mount that supports both pairs.

If using the supercardioid mk41's to help deal with a reverberant room or challenging audience, go for less angle between mics.  You can push that further if necessary by using even less angle and going wider-spaced than whatever configuration you find you like with the mk4's.  The logical conclusion of this is pointing the mics directly at the outside edge of the PA (PAS) in combination with a spacing between them that is most appropriate to that particular angle and polar pattern.  Pointing the mics at the PA is generally the best configuration possible when dealing with a challenging room.  It does mean that you'll need a mic bar that allows adjustment of both spacing and angle.  But, an alternative option to an adjustable bar when using something like the 3d printed Shapeway bars is a few different bars which aren't adjustable but collectively provide different spacing/angle combinations that are more or less appropriate to your recording position in the rooms in which you record.  You might need to contact them to specify the particular spacing/angle combinations, but you can then pick the most appropriate ones.. and stack them for recording both pairs at once.

Here is the way to determine what spacing between mics is most appropriate based on the angle between the microphones when the microphones are pointed at the stacks (or outer edges of the ensemble for non-PA-amplified stuff)- >>Improved PAS table<<


If instead you want to explore making recordings in which the two pairs of microphones are mixed together, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.  Sure, you can simply try mixing them together which may or may not produce good results.  But to really optimize things so as to make a better recording than either pair generally achieves on its own on a consistent basis, totally different configurations are required, different than those used for two microphones as a pair.  Can help point you in the right direction if so.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2022, 01:40:54 PM »
Nbob actives, yes.  This looks great! but also wondering if there is an all in one solution?  There are some shapeways mounts that hold two sets at once, just not sure if any of them would work for this 4v+41 combo?  Thank you!

I've heard that Scott is doing custom mounts again. A few people here have NOS/DIN or DIN/DINa combo mounts. I'd try emailing him through Shapeways.

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2022, 02:24:13 PM »
Awesome info.. thank you!  I will send you a PM.  Appreciate the help!

[..]I picked up a pair of mk41's to run alongside my mk4v's (>MixPre6II)[..]

If running both pairs so as to be able to compare the two and have the ability to choose whichever pair worked better each time, in general you'll want to use a stereo configuration that uses slightly less angle between mk41's, or slightly less spacing between them, in comparison to whatever configuration you like best when using the mk4v's, in order to make a recording that has similar width and imaging properties.

Once you determine what those two configurations are, Shapeways may be able to make you a single mount that supports both pairs.

If using the supercardioid mk41's to help deal with a reverberant room or challenging audience, go for less angle between mics.  You can push that further if necessary by using even less angle and going wider-spaced than whatever configuration you find you like with the mk4's.  The logical conclusion of this is pointing the mics directly at the outside edge of the PA (PAS) in combination with a spacing between them that is most appropriate to that particular angle and polar pattern.  Pointing the mics at the PA is generally the best configuration possible when dealing with a challenging room.  It does mean that you'll need a mic bar that allows adjustment of both spacing and angle.  But, an alternative option to an adjustable bar when using something like the 3d printed Shapeway bars is a few different bars which aren't adjustable but collectively provide different spacing/angle combinations that are more or less appropriate to your recording position in the rooms in which you record.  You might need to contact them to specify the particular spacing/angle combinations, but you can then pick the most appropriate ones.. and stack them for recording both pairs at once.

Here is the way to determine what spacing between mics is most appropriate based on the angle between the microphones when the microphones are pointed at the stacks (or outer edges of the ensemble for non-PA-amplified stuff)- >>Improved PAS table<<


If instead you want to explore making recordings in which the two pairs of microphones are mixed together, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.  Sure, you can simply try mixing them together which may or may not produce good results.  But to really optimize things so as to make a better recording than either pair generally achieves on its own on a consistent basis, totally different configurations are required, different than those used for two microphones as a pair.  Can help point you in the right direction if so.
Schoeps MK4v's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
Schoeps MK41's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
DPA 4015's > MMP-ER Modular Active Rear Cable > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II

Offline dueling

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2022, 02:26:41 PM »
Nbob actives, yes.  This looks great! but also wondering if there is an all in one solution?  There are some shapeways mounts that hold two sets at once, just not sure if any of them would work for this 4v+41 combo?  Thank you!

I've heard that Scott is doing custom mounts again. A few people here have NOS/DIN or DIN/DINa combo mounts. I'd try emailing him through Shapeways.

I actually ordered the mount that is close to DIN with the verticals, and NOS with the standard horizontal clips.  The 4v's have made great recordings on their own in DIN vertical, I just don't know if running mk41's at NOS makes sense.    I emailed Scott to see if he could do a DIN/DINa combo mount for me.  Thank you!
Schoeps MK4v's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
Schoeps MK41's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
DPA 4015's > MMP-ER Modular Active Rear Cable > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2022, 04:11:18 PM »
Also, if I just used two separate Shapeways mounts instead of an all in one, what is the best shockmount to use?  Something like the SCHOEPS AMS 22?  Is there anything better/cheaper to do this?  Thanks
Schoeps MK4v's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
Schoeps MK41's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
DPA 4015's > MMP-ER Modular Active Rear Cable > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2022, 04:43:48 PM »
With supercards like MK41's DinA is pretty standard if up close. 
To my ears..  With MK41's I like 60-ish degrees, 30cm 24cm split.  More or less PAS at the outer edges of PA system.

IMO..  If you want flexibility with the mount, find a 30 cm 23cm Vark-style Bar with the Schoeps SGC clips (or better yet,with Nbob SGC clips).  Works great with a Rycote Invision III shock mount.
You could even run 4ch. on that one bar.
Sweet rig!


***EDIT:  Mic spacing correction.  Sorry for any confusion.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 11:23:31 AM by yug du nord »
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Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2022, 04:45:32 PM »
Also, if I just used two separate Shapeways mounts instead of an all in one, what is the best shockmount to use?  Something like the SCHOEPS AMS 22?  Is there anything better/cheaper to do this?  Thanks

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133298041528?hash=item1f092eb2b8:g:uxEAAOSwxxFh9Y-Y

+

https://www.adorama.com/ry042271.html

I use a K&M stereo bar mounted parallel perpendicular to the stage (rotated 90 degrees from how you would normally use it) and run the wider pair in back.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 12:41:15 PM by DavidPuddy »

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2022, 10:09:19 PM »
Also, if I just used two separate Shapeways mounts instead of an all in one, what is the best shockmount to use?  Something like the SCHOEPS AMS 22?  Is there anything better/cheaper to do this?  Thanks

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133298041528?hash=item1f092eb2b8:g:uxEAAOSwxxFh9Y-Y

+

https://www.adorama.com/ry042271.html

I use a K&M stereo bar mounted parallel to the stage (rotated 90 degrees from how you would normally use it) and run the wider pair in back.

I run the same shock mount and base as posted here with a 4-way shapeways mount for nbobs. It works perfectly and I would highly recommend it. However, I’m not running vertical caps, so your mount will be slightly different. Scott does quality work and it’s extremely light weight yet durable.
Mics: AKG ck63 Hypercards, AKG ck61 Cards, 2x nBob Actives (460B bodies unused), Rode NT6/MJE-384K Roadster (Michael Joly modded Cards), Audix M1280 Hypercards, Audix M1290 Cards, AT853 Cards, Church Audio CA-11 Cards, AT MT830R Omnis
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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2022, 12:40:01 PM »
Great info and help everyone.. thank you!
Schoeps MK4v's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
Schoeps MK41's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
DPA 4015's > MMP-ER Modular Active Rear Cable > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2022, 12:43:26 PM »
With supercards like MK41's DinA is pretty standard if up close. 
To my ears..  With MK41's I like 60-ish degrees, 30cm split.  More or less PAS at the outer edges of PA system.

Like this, correct?...   https://www.shapeways.com/product/XKS9S2ZRE/hybrid-schoeps-nbobs-v2-2130?optionId=162123557

Is this considered PAS or NOS for the outside caps, which would be my mk41's?

Schoeps MK4v's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
Schoeps MK41's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
DPA 4015's > MMP-ER Modular Active Rear Cable > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II

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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2022, 10:41:52 AM »
With supercards like MK41's DinA is pretty standard if up close. 
To my ears..  With MK41's I like 60-ish degrees, 30cm split.  More or less PAS at the outer edges of PA system.

Like this, correct?...   https://www.shapeways.com/product/XKS9S2ZRE/hybrid-schoeps-nbobs-v2-2130?optionId=162123557

Is this considered PAS or NOS for the outside caps, which would be my mk41's?

NOS = 90* angle, 30cm spacing.
PAS is variable depending on location that you are set-up.

That mount looks like the front addressed capsules would be 60* angle, 30cm spacing.
And the side addressed (vertical) capsules are 21cm spacing.

Crazy cool looking Shapeways mount there!
I personally like to be able to adjust the angle a little if needed, so I prefer an adjustable mount.  But I always carry a DinA and an ORTF bar in my bag too. 
It’s best to be prepared/flexible unless you’re always set-up in the same spot.

Man that Shapeways mount would make 4ch set up easy!!..  looks like it’s all on the same plane too!


***EDIT:  I just measured, and it looks like I typically run my mount at 60*-ish, 24cm spacing.  Sorry for any confusion.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 11:21:25 AM by yug du nord »
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Re: Best configs for mk4v's with mk41's? > MP6II
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2022, 09:40:10 AM »
Just as a late update here, Scott made a mount for me and it has worked very well.  :headphones:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/T6FRNAZWE/cm-grahammunda
Schoeps MK4v's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
Schoeps MK41's > Nbob Actives > Naiant PFAs > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II
DPA 4015's > MMP-ER Modular Active Rear Cable > Sound Devices MixPre 10 II

 

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