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Offline checht

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Windscreen for xy config?
« on: June 11, 2022, 02:26:28 PM »
Looking to run schoeps active caps in xy config outdoors, and considering windscreen options.

1. Use usual Movo WST50s and separate caps 2" vertically to accommodate.
2. Use teeny little popscreens (maybe windtech) plus loose-knit wool cap.
3. ?

Creativity welcomed!
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Offline vanark

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2022, 04:22:09 PM »
Solution: Don't run XY
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Offline checht

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2022, 04:36:32 PM »
Solution: Don't run XY
😀 Thanks for sorting me.
Other option would be dina, this is center pair in an OMT4 config.
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Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2022, 05:56:39 PM »
:yack: I think you want to stick with XY for the center OMT. Even if you have a two inch vertical separation would imo be better than almost a seven inch spread in dina. Paging gutbucket...
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); CA-14(c); Naiant X-R (h); Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
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Offline yug du nord

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2022, 07:30:14 PM »
41’s??..  Where are you running mikes from?
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline vanark

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2022, 07:36:41 PM »
Friends don't let friends run XY.
If you have a problem relating to the Live Music Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/etree) please send an e-mail to us admins at LMA(AT)archive(DOT)org or post in the LMA thread here and we'll get on it.

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Mics: Microtech Gefell M21 (with Nbob actives) | Church Audio CA-11 (cards) (with CA UBB)
Pres: babynbox
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2022, 11:13:29 AM »
I'd choose a near-spaced config over X/Y too if it was not going to be used in combination with spaced omnis or some other wider spaced pair.  Coincident isn't my favorite configuration used on its own, yet tends to work better than a near-spaced in combination with a wide pair.  Sort of like a well-matched human couple who complement each other rather than bickering.  Extending the analogy, near-spaced is analogous to someone particularly well-adjusted to single life, doing it all on their own.  Friction arises when a partner moves in.  I can torture that analogy further if anyone likes!  Ménage à trois?  There is an entire orgy going on atop my mic stand. ;)

A tricky, not immediately obvious thing about combining multiple mics in an array is that the most optimal arrangement for use in combination will be somewhat different than the most optimal arrangement for each individual pair used on its own.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2022, 11:35:26 AM »
On the windscreen question- Best arrangement for two coincident mics would be a single windscreen, but not a lot of options there. I recall seeing somewhere a largish round grey-foam ball windscreen with two holes bored into it intended for X/Y.  It looked Schoeps-like, very similar the Schoeps M/S windscreen but with angled holes instead of parallel.  That would probably be ideal if you can find one.  Add fur cover if necessary.

Last time I used my full-body MG21's in X/Y in combination with wide omnis was in a last minute 2nd rig, expecting windy conditions.  I broke out the old Shure vert-bar and set up the mics in X/Y with small foam windscreens on the caps, the front half of a Rycote BBG shell in front and the BBG windjammer over that and the capsules, with it's draw-string snugged up in back and secured between the mics with a black binder clip.  Essentially it was the BBG windjammer arrangement without the hemispherical back half of its shell in place.  The small foams inside mostly just helped with spacing between the mics and front shell.  That arrangement was similar to your loose-knit wool cap idea. I found myself wishing for alternate rear BBG shells with two rubber grommet openings to accommodate a pair mics instead of one.  Two alternate versions: one with them angled for X/Y and one with them parallel for M/S.  Hey Rycote, you listening?

Easiest will be X/Y with a bit more vertical spacing to accommodate both Movos.  That's probably the most practical way to go, at least initially to see how you like it.

Most of the time I use M/S as the coincident pair in the middle and prefer it over X/Y for numerous reasons, one of which is an easier to achieve, more streamlined arrangement on the mic-stand as both mic bodies are parallel.  The only problem with M/S instead of X/Y is that it requires a fig-8.  If you find you like what X/Y does in the middle between the omnis, consider picking up a Naiant X8 from Jon (as we discussed over PM's).  Its inexpensive and works great in the role of Side channel mic in support of whatever Mid you prefer.  I have two of them and use both as Side mics - with either Gefell or DPA Mids. 

For M/S with a Gefell cardioid or supercard Mid, I use the same half BBG shell + windjammer arrangement, without the binder clip in back as the draw-string of the windjammer snugs up nice and tight around the two parallel bodies gaff-taped together just forward of the single mic-clip.  The miniature DPA supercardioid Mid is so small it actually fits inside a big ass Shure taped atop the X8.  I plan to try the same combination inside a single Movo soon.


These photos show two OMT rigs sharing the same stand, both using M/S center pairs with X8 Mids.  The upper rig uses a Shure WS and miniature DPA Mid in the center position, in addition to other Sure WS for its other channels.  The lower clamped rig is using the half-BBG + windjammer arrangement with a Gefell M94 cardioid Mid.  Edit- to clarify what you are seeing, in the top photo both arrays are facing left (stage would be off to the upper left).  In the bottom photo both arrays are facing right (stage would be off to the lower right).
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 11:59:15 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline checht

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2022, 12:02:10 PM »
Super helpful, thanks a lot!
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6II -OR- Naiant IPA > Sony PCM-A10
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Niaint x8
Recordings at LMA

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2022, 12:19:36 PM »
Friends don't let friends run XY.

They try to convince them to try M/S in the middle instead!
 :cheers:
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DSatz

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2022, 10:00:02 AM »
The following might not interest old-timers so much; it's mainly for anyone who's newer to this hobby.

X/Y has its uses, and can sound good sometimes. But a lot of people use microphones with pickup patterns that are too broad (especially at low frequencies), and they don't set up a wide enough angle between the microphones. This isn't their fault; there are lots of really ignorant or overly generalized suggestions "out there" about how to set up microphones for stereo recording. Plus the design of some recorders and even stereo microphones with X/Y cardioids at a fixed angle of 90 degrees suggests that that's some ideal, scientifically chosen arrangement, when in fact it sucks big time for music recording at medium distance.

[1] Cardioid isn't a narrow pickup pattern! When you're recording with only two microphones (or when your main stereo feed is coming from one "main pair"), the overlap between the microphones goes right to the center of your stereo image in playback, i.e. it's like using a mono main setup with much smaller contributions from separate left and right microphones. And even if you put two cardioids completely back to back (i.e. 180 degrees) so that they have the maximum amount of separateness for an X/Y pair, literally half the output of each microphone will be exactly the same as each other. That's what a cardioid pattern means: 50% pressure response (= inherently omnidirectional), 50% pressure gradient/velocity response. This removes the vividness of the stereo image as well as fun possibilities at low frequencies.

As a result the pickup angle for X/Y cardioids at 90 degrees is hopelessly wide. It might be a fine setup for recording round-table business meetings (the application which most of those recorders are mainly sold for), but for a relatively narrow angular range of sound sources coming from some distance away, I agree--friends don't let friends use such a setup.

[2] Especially people who are new to this hobby don't understand that the wider you angle your mikes apart, the more specific (i.e. differentiated) the localization in the eventual playback will be. Intuitively it seems as if a narrower mike arrangement will lead to more precise "focus". And with narrower mike setups, yes, you will pick up somewhat more of the direct sound and less of the diffuse (reverberant) sound, which is important. But for most "semi-distant" music recording, the default angle for cardioids should be more like 120 degrees than 90; you might even increase that angle sometimes, depending on conditions and taste. In any case 90 degrees isn't some kind of magic number where cardioids (or even super- or hypercardioids) are concerned.

[3] On top of that, many cardioid microphones are cardioid only in the midrange; their patterns get broader (i.e. even MORE like omni) at low frequencies (just where you need that NOT to happen), and narrower at high frequencies. The worst offenders are large, dual-diaphragm cardioids (including the cardioid setting of most large-diaphragm stereo microphones). This is why I rebel against the social pressure here to respect some people's choice of "LDCs" as if that were simply one equally valid aesthetic preference among others. If so, it's only the visual and historical aspect and not the auditory aesthetic that I can honestly respect.

Coincident and closely-spaced stereo recording makes very specific demands on a pair of microphones; consistent polar (directional) patterns need to be maintained throughout the frequency range, otherwise this trick of the brain that we call stereo imaging doesn't work nearly as well. And large-diaphragm microphones (especially dual-diaphragm microphones, which most large-diaphragm cardioids are) physically can't meet those requirements. So please don't get distracted by looks, in-group feelings of personal coolness, or studio traditions for spot/solo miking where the requirements are quite different.

[4] The reasons for considering supercardioids instead of cardioids for stereo recording has little to do with filtering out crowd sounds, and much more to do with increasing the difference between what the two microphones in the pair are each picking up at any given moment (again, working with the brain to make the stereo trick work, rather than against it). Yes, they are also a bit "drier and clearer" sounding, but this depends a lot on the room and the distance as well as the microphones. Also, if they're well made, they'll still have a good directional pattern even where their frequency response rolls off, so any deficiency in low-frequency response (which a lot of them have, because they were designed primarily for speech pickup in reverberant/noisy environments) can be compensated with EQ. It's not cheating; it's undoing a design feature that was built into mikes made for applications different from our own.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 10:15:40 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2022, 12:44:38 PM »
Looking to run schoeps active caps in xy config outdoors, and considering windscreen options.
2. Use teeny little popscreens (maybe windtech) plus loose-knit wool cap.

I've used smaller windscreens that wouldn't normally be robust enough outdoors because either poor planning on my part or I just didn't have them available. Putting a Crown Royal bag over each screen did the trick for me once or twice. I'd imagine throwing a knit cap over the setup might at least help if not be just exactly perfect.

Lots of talk in this thread about everything but windscreens. LOL. If you want to run XY go for it. I kinda like the way it sounds using cards or supercards at 90 degrees or so in the middle of spaced omnis.
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Offline vanark

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2022, 01:17:48 PM »
Okay, well, I now know (somewhat) why my advice that friends don't let friends run XY is true (sometimes). As always, an very informative post by DSatz. Thank you.
If you have a problem relating to the Live Music Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/etree) please send an e-mail to us admins at LMA(AT)archive(DOT)org or post in the LMA thread here and we'll get on it.

Link to LMA Recordings

Link to Team Dirty South Recordings on the LMA

Mics: Microtech Gefell M21 (with Nbob actives) | Church Audio CA-11 (cards) (with CA UBB)
Pres: babynbox
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D | Tascam DR-40 | Sony PCM-A10 | Edirol R-4

Offline checht

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2022, 01:18:09 PM »
Thanks a lot, GC. I carry my mk41s w actives in a Crown bag, so always have one handy 😀. The cap I was considering passes breath a bit easier than the tight knit of the bag, so I figure it'd attenuat HF less. I should mess around with all that at home.

Sat night, I recorded Ween at Edgefield in Troutdale, OR. Outdoor venue w great sound. Ran 4' spaced omnis plus 90º x/y 41s in the center. Geometry meant that 90º was PAS, and I'm really liking the sound of the 2 pairs. Rough mix with 41s down 3 db combines smooth, clear, present mids/highs with rock solid imaging and sound stage and natural, full bass.

I've ordered a figure of 8 mic to play with and see if I prefer m/s to x/y. Don't know a thing about manipulating m/s in post, so that'll be some fun new territory to explore.

In 1985 I added a Senn 421 in the center of my AKGs to improve LF, not thinking about pattern at all. Pretty quickly ditched that and the portable Yamaha mixer and switched to used km84i bought from Wally Heider studios in SF. They were used in sessions for Big Brother and lots of Janis. Loved their sound, and had fun designing/building a phantom power box w Jensen transformers for decoupling and a bit of gain to run line in to the D-5. Selling those boxes funded my time on Dead tour...

So it's been 37 years of running 2 mics, first 90º x/y then ortf, which I've loved since I first tried it.

I'm trying to learn about OMT in hopes it'll improve my recordings, but also hoping it improves my knowledge and ear. One thing that I love about this hobby is that it offers opportunities to learn and discard prior beliefs as my perspective changes. Flexibility of thought seems crucial to maintaining high cognitive function as I age. And this is all super interesting and fun!

Folks here have strong opinions strongly expressed. That's fine. I strive for fluidity and openness to new information counter to previously held beliefs. Scientific method FTW, even when so much of this is sensory and therefore subjective.

Thanks all who have contributed to this thread! Appreciate the community very much.

~Chris
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 01:23:57 PM by checht »
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6II -OR- Naiant IPA > Sony PCM-A10
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Niaint x8
Recordings at LMA

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2022, 01:57:15 PM »
Thanks a lot, GC. I carry my mk41s w actives in a Crown bag, so always have one handy 😀.

Same. I use Crown bags to keep my gear sorted out and somewhat padded so it doesn't get scratched in my gear bag. They do muffle the sound a little but it's better than having wind rumble which is very hard to eliminate after the fact. Surprisingly effective when deployed in a pinch.

Nowadays I carry my Movo WST50 screens ALWAYS if I'm taping out of doors. Never a problem with these and it looks like they are back in stock now after being unavailable for quite some time. You might be able to homebrew a solution using one of these.

I was at my GFs house and there was a can of Scotchguard repellant so I took it home and sprayed a couple of the bags just for shits and giggles. Resorted to using those bags a couple times when I lived in NOLA since rain can be unpredictable there. Kept my mics dry when it was just sort of drizzly not really pouring. If it's pouring rain I break down my stuff.
Line Audio CM3 || ADK A51 type IV
SD MixpreD || Oade Warm Mod UA5
Tascam DR680 || Marantz PMD661 || Korg MR1 (homebrew internal battery mod)

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City
"I don't know who left this perfectly good inflatable wook doll here, but if I'm blowing her up, I'm keeping her." -  hoppedup

Offline checht

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2022, 02:45:44 PM »
Also use WST50s. You can find them on Movo's site if they're out of stock on Amazon. Same price, free shipping.
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6II -OR- Naiant IPA > Sony PCM-A10
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Niaint x8
Recordings at LMA

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2022, 02:21:34 AM »
used km84i bought from Wally Heider studios

If these are still around I'd like to get my hands on them.
Line Audio CM3 || ADK A51 type IV
SD MixpreD || Oade Warm Mod UA5
Tascam DR680 || Marantz PMD661 || Korg MR1 (homebrew internal battery mod)

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City
"I don't know who left this perfectly good inflatable wook doll here, but if I'm blowing her up, I'm keeping her." -  hoppedup

Offline checht

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Re: Windscreen for xy config?
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2022, 05:09:09 PM »
used km84i bought from Wally Heider studios

If these are still around I'd like to get my hands on them.

At the time, needed to sell them to buy cmc621s. Regretting that now...
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6II -OR- Naiant IPA > Sony PCM-A10
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Niaint x8
Recordings at LMA

 

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