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Author Topic: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022  (Read 8440 times)

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Offline fandelive

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Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« on: June 19, 2022, 03:36:05 PM »
Hello,

Some guy (I never met, actually) listened to a couple of my tapes and just asked me to help him building a 007 taping rig from scratch. He told me he could manage to secure a spot between the audience and the stage, where press-photographers are allowed to stand during shows (I think it's called "the rail"), in an almost 2000 capacity theater which name starts with wilt and ends with ern. Please don't name it.

He wants to tape high SPLs rock concerts.

Considering the spot and the fact that he's totally new to taping, I adviced him to get a pair of omnidirectional mics (which will be easier to use for a newbie and probably the best choice regarding his spot... Right???) and to mount them at head level, close to his ears. He told me he was ready to spend a good amount of $$$ to get great results, so I suggested him two options:

  • Core Sound High End Binaural Set (using DPA 4061 - I INSISTED on the fact that he absolutely wants LOW SENSIVITY caps, whatever the mics). I know there would be cheaper alternatives if you can find a second hand pair with micro dot connectors and someone who is willing to build a stereo 3.5 jack Y adapter, but I can't supervise the whole thing and you need both caps to be matched and all that kind of trouble...
  • Church Audio CA-14's omnis (for a budget alternative - warned him about the building delay)

I then adviced him to get a 9V battery box to power the mics (either Core Sound and Church Audio will provide that). I wonder if it's a good suggestion since he'll probably get very low levels if he uses line-in. What do you think?

I don't know about the CA-14's (never owned a pair of those), but I've been experiencing DPA 4061's > 9V battery box > Tascam dr-2D line-in (levels set at 95 aka unity gain) and levels barely reached the -20dB threshold.
I've only recently replaced the battery box with a Church Audio CA-9100 preamp (knob set at 9 o'clock) and managed to make the levels peak at -3dB.

Before that, I've experienced a pair of 4.7k modded MM-HLSC-1's > Church Audio CA-9100 preamp (knob pushed to the max)  > Edirol R09-HR line-in (levels set at unity gain) and always got great results.

I've come to the point where I perfectly know my gear and don't have to think anymore about how to combine and set everything up to get great results.

So I question myself... A battery box is way easier to use than a preamp for a newbie, since you only have to control your levels on the recorder. But can you get decent results with a battery box powered low sensivity caps?

As for the recorder: I'm only experienced with devices that are no longer available (Edirol R-09HR and Tascam dr-2D), so I don't even know what to suggest for that point (and, again, I can't supervise the whole thing). He'll probably need help on how the set the recorded up.

I'd like to suggest a rig that's easy to manipulate and safe to set up, so he can get at least decent distorted-free results. Something he won't have to think too much about, like: mics > battery box > recorder <mic-in or line-in> <levels set at unity gain> > decent results > end of the story.

...but is it even possible?

Any suggestion is welcome as I'll probably point my young padawn to this thread :)
Thanks !

-fandelive
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 03:41:03 PM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2022, 03:45:13 PM »
Schoeps MK4 actives babynbox Tascam DR-2D, Edirol R-9 or Sony A10.  Can provide lots of samples and a number of other tapers can do that also.

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2022, 04:27:52 PM »
Schoeps MK4 actives babynbox Tascam DR-2D, Edirol R-9 or Sony A10.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call that a starter rig  ;D
You've been actively taping for a long time to the point you became a legend.

What would be the approximative total cost of your rig?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 04:33:31 PM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2022, 05:34:46 PM »
Schoeps MK4 actives babynbox Tascam DR-2D, Edirol R-9 or Sony A10.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call that a starter rig  ;D
You've been actively taping for a long time to the point you became a legend.

What would be the approximative total cost of your rig?

Less than 2500 can be done with used gear

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2022, 06:27:25 PM »
Schoeps MK4 actives babynbox Tascam DR-2D, Edirol R-9 or Sony A10.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call that a starter rig  ;D
You've been actively taping for a long time to the point you became a legend.

What would be the approximative total cost of your rig?

If purchasing used about $2300-$2700.   Not a starter rig but saw spending a good amount of money so figured he wanted to go all in.  If he changes his mind he can sell for what we paid for it too.

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2022, 12:16:15 AM »
AT-853 omnis would be a good low(ish)-cost substitute for the CA-14s. DPAs will sound better, Schoeps even better, but as you note those are pricier.

How is the sound from that location? I can't tell if there are fill speakers along the stage lip; if not, he's going to be at risk of having all the PA sound (i.e., the vocals) go over his head.

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2022, 01:05:26 AM »
How is the sound from that location? I can't tell if there are fill speakers along the stage lip; if not, he's going to be at risk of having all the PA sound (i.e., the vocals) go over his head.

I saw a video he shot with his smartphone from that spot. Couldn't see any fill speakers (if I'm ever able to recognize one when I see it) but it sounded like a decent balanced mono mix. Judging by the PA speakers only, yes, the sound would go over his head. Definitely. That's also why I recommended omnis. Told him the PA speakers should directly point at him and to avoid standing close to a wall.

Do Sound professionals sell AT 853's? Under which reference (SP-BMC-??)? All I could find are cardioid caps. Is a low sens mod available?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 01:29:01 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2022, 01:28:11 AM »
Tascam DR-2D, Edirol R-9 or Sony A10.

If buying new, would an Edirol R-07 make it? Listened to a tape done with CA-11 > CA Ugly BB > Edirol R-07 combo on dime and it doesn't sound overloaded. I guess I can find information about that device unity gain somewhere...
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline unidentified

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2022, 07:19:11 AM »
How is the sound from that location? I can't tell if there are fill speakers along the stage lip; if not, he's going to be at risk of having all the PA sound (i.e., the vocals) go over his head.

I saw a video he shot with his smartphone from that spot. Couldn't see any fill speakers (if I'm ever able to recognize one when I see it) but it sounded like a decent balanced mono mix. Judging by the PA speakers only, yes, the sound would go over his head. Definitely. That's also why I recommended omnis. Told him the PA speakers should directly point at him and to avoid standing close to a wall.

Do Sound professionals sell AT 853's? Under which reference (SP-BMC-??)? All I could find are cardioid caps. Is a low sens mod available?

SP-CMC-4U, and yes regarding the low sensitivity mod.

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2022, 08:01:25 AM »

SP-CMC-4U, and yes regarding the low sensitivity mod.

And I believe these are the omni caps:

https://soundprofessionals.com/product/UE-O/

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2022, 09:52:25 AM »
I've been experiencing DPA 4061's > 9V battery box > Tascam dr-2D line-in (levels set at 95 aka unity gain) and levels barely reached the -20dB threshold.

A few DR2d specific things-
If running this battery-box > line-in configuration, bump it up to 100 to make use of use the additional 5 units of available gain.  Not sure what difference in dB that equates to, but it may be just about right for that combination.  The important thing is not to set it below 95 in an attempt to accommodate an input that is too hot.  No problem with settings higher than 95.  The only issue in that case is that the available range between 95 and 100 is rather small, and adjustment is only available through the menu.

Alternate configuration is battery box > mic-input (set to low sensitivity, PIP turned off).  You'll then have additional gain available (95 line-in equates to about 65 mic-in / low-sens),which is adjustable while recording if necessary via the input level control and/or remote.

He told me he could manage to secure a spot between the audience and the stage, where press-photographers are allowed to stand during shows (I think it's called "the rail"). [...]
He wants to tape high SPLs rock concerts.

Suggest that he look for smallish fill PA speakers located across the front of the stage, or either side pointing toward the center and position himself near them or arrange for a clear line of sight between himself and them.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2022, 11:11:30 AM »
Definitely agree with the Omni rec. Brand/mic is personal preference, but I love my churches and wouldn’t want to stealth with a $2k rig.

The photo pit is definitely not the best place to tape a show, though as others have said, if there’s repeaters in the lip of the stage it could sound solid. I’ve made a handful of tapes from that sort of location and they tend to be mostly drums and will almost definitely lack vocals

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2022, 11:20:39 AM »
Been stealthing with a $2K-$3K rig for 30 years.   Go big or go home.   :headphones:

Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2022, 02:44:47 PM »
Another idea: DPA 4061's > DPA Dvice > Iphone/Android phone

Assuming they already have a phone, 4061's can be gotten used pretty easily - I see a set in the yard sale for $600 now. $659 for the dvice. So not cheap, but as stealthy as you can get & doesn't require a separate recording device.

Offline edtyre

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2022, 06:03:32 PM »
Been stealthing with a $2K-$3K rig for 30 years.   Go big or go home.   :headphones:

18 years for me, I’ll agree if you are serious about taping
get the goods right away, if you decide to get out, you can sell
without losing any money

My first rig cost 750, after I made one recording I was disappointed
My second rig cost 1400 I was still pretty much looking for better
Third times the charm!
music>mics>pre>recorder

 

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