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Author Topic: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022  (Read 8381 times)

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Offline fandelive

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Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« on: June 19, 2022, 03:36:05 PM »
Hello,

Some guy (I never met, actually) listened to a couple of my tapes and just asked me to help him building a 007 taping rig from scratch. He told me he could manage to secure a spot between the audience and the stage, where press-photographers are allowed to stand during shows (I think it's called "the rail"), in an almost 2000 capacity theater which name starts with wilt and ends with ern. Please don't name it.

He wants to tape high SPLs rock concerts.

Considering the spot and the fact that he's totally new to taping, I adviced him to get a pair of omnidirectional mics (which will be easier to use for a newbie and probably the best choice regarding his spot... Right???) and to mount them at head level, close to his ears. He told me he was ready to spend a good amount of $$$ to get great results, so I suggested him two options:

  • Core Sound High End Binaural Set (using DPA 4061 - I INSISTED on the fact that he absolutely wants LOW SENSIVITY caps, whatever the mics). I know there would be cheaper alternatives if you can find a second hand pair with micro dot connectors and someone who is willing to build a stereo 3.5 jack Y adapter, but I can't supervise the whole thing and you need both caps to be matched and all that kind of trouble...
  • Church Audio CA-14's omnis (for a budget alternative - warned him about the building delay)

I then adviced him to get a 9V battery box to power the mics (either Core Sound and Church Audio will provide that). I wonder if it's a good suggestion since he'll probably get very low levels if he uses line-in. What do you think?

I don't know about the CA-14's (never owned a pair of those), but I've been experiencing DPA 4061's > 9V battery box > Tascam dr-2D line-in (levels set at 95 aka unity gain) and levels barely reached the -20dB threshold.
I've only recently replaced the battery box with a Church Audio CA-9100 preamp (knob set at 9 o'clock) and managed to make the levels peak at -3dB.

Before that, I've experienced a pair of 4.7k modded MM-HLSC-1's > Church Audio CA-9100 preamp (knob pushed to the max)  > Edirol R09-HR line-in (levels set at unity gain) and always got great results.

I've come to the point where I perfectly know my gear and don't have to think anymore about how to combine and set everything up to get great results.

So I question myself... A battery box is way easier to use than a preamp for a newbie, since you only have to control your levels on the recorder. But can you get decent results with a battery box powered low sensivity caps?

As for the recorder: I'm only experienced with devices that are no longer available (Edirol R-09HR and Tascam dr-2D), so I don't even know what to suggest for that point (and, again, I can't supervise the whole thing). He'll probably need help on how the set the recorded up.

I'd like to suggest a rig that's easy to manipulate and safe to set up, so he can get at least decent distorted-free results. Something he won't have to think too much about, like: mics > battery box > recorder <mic-in or line-in> <levels set at unity gain> > decent results > end of the story.

...but is it even possible?

Any suggestion is welcome as I'll probably point my young padawn to this thread :)
Thanks !

-fandelive
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 03:41:03 PM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2022, 03:45:13 PM »
Schoeps MK4 actives babynbox Tascam DR-2D, Edirol R-9 or Sony A10.  Can provide lots of samples and a number of other tapers can do that also.

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2022, 04:27:52 PM »
Schoeps MK4 actives babynbox Tascam DR-2D, Edirol R-9 or Sony A10.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call that a starter rig  ;D
You've been actively taping for a long time to the point you became a legend.

What would be the approximative total cost of your rig?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 04:33:31 PM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2022, 05:34:46 PM »
Schoeps MK4 actives babynbox Tascam DR-2D, Edirol R-9 or Sony A10.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call that a starter rig  ;D
You've been actively taping for a long time to the point you became a legend.

What would be the approximative total cost of your rig?

Less than 2500 can be done with used gear

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2022, 06:27:25 PM »
Schoeps MK4 actives babynbox Tascam DR-2D, Edirol R-9 or Sony A10.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call that a starter rig  ;D
You've been actively taping for a long time to the point you became a legend.

What would be the approximative total cost of your rig?

If purchasing used about $2300-$2700.   Not a starter rig but saw spending a good amount of money so figured he wanted to go all in.  If he changes his mind he can sell for what we paid for it too.

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2022, 12:16:15 AM »
AT-853 omnis would be a good low(ish)-cost substitute for the CA-14s. DPAs will sound better, Schoeps even better, but as you note those are pricier.

How is the sound from that location? I can't tell if there are fill speakers along the stage lip; if not, he's going to be at risk of having all the PA sound (i.e., the vocals) go over his head.

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2022, 01:05:26 AM »
How is the sound from that location? I can't tell if there are fill speakers along the stage lip; if not, he's going to be at risk of having all the PA sound (i.e., the vocals) go over his head.

I saw a video he shot with his smartphone from that spot. Couldn't see any fill speakers (if I'm ever able to recognize one when I see it) but it sounded like a decent balanced mono mix. Judging by the PA speakers only, yes, the sound would go over his head. Definitely. That's also why I recommended omnis. Told him the PA speakers should directly point at him and to avoid standing close to a wall.

Do Sound professionals sell AT 853's? Under which reference (SP-BMC-??)? All I could find are cardioid caps. Is a low sens mod available?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 01:29:01 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2022, 01:28:11 AM »
Tascam DR-2D, Edirol R-9 or Sony A10.

If buying new, would an Edirol R-07 make it? Listened to a tape done with CA-11 > CA Ugly BB > Edirol R-07 combo on dime and it doesn't sound overloaded. I guess I can find information about that device unity gain somewhere...
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline unidentified

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2022, 07:19:11 AM »
How is the sound from that location? I can't tell if there are fill speakers along the stage lip; if not, he's going to be at risk of having all the PA sound (i.e., the vocals) go over his head.

I saw a video he shot with his smartphone from that spot. Couldn't see any fill speakers (if I'm ever able to recognize one when I see it) but it sounded like a decent balanced mono mix. Judging by the PA speakers only, yes, the sound would go over his head. Definitely. That's also why I recommended omnis. Told him the PA speakers should directly point at him and to avoid standing close to a wall.

Do Sound professionals sell AT 853's? Under which reference (SP-BMC-??)? All I could find are cardioid caps. Is a low sens mod available?

SP-CMC-4U, and yes regarding the low sensitivity mod.

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2022, 08:01:25 AM »

SP-CMC-4U, and yes regarding the low sensitivity mod.

And I believe these are the omni caps:

https://soundprofessionals.com/product/UE-O/

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2022, 09:52:25 AM »
I've been experiencing DPA 4061's > 9V battery box > Tascam dr-2D line-in (levels set at 95 aka unity gain) and levels barely reached the -20dB threshold.

A few DR2d specific things-
If running this battery-box > line-in configuration, bump it up to 100 to make use of use the additional 5 units of available gain.  Not sure what difference in dB that equates to, but it may be just about right for that combination.  The important thing is not to set it below 95 in an attempt to accommodate an input that is too hot.  No problem with settings higher than 95.  The only issue in that case is that the available range between 95 and 100 is rather small, and adjustment is only available through the menu.

Alternate configuration is battery box > mic-input (set to low sensitivity, PIP turned off).  You'll then have additional gain available (95 line-in equates to about 65 mic-in / low-sens),which is adjustable while recording if necessary via the input level control and/or remote.

He told me he could manage to secure a spot between the audience and the stage, where press-photographers are allowed to stand during shows (I think it's called "the rail"). [...]
He wants to tape high SPLs rock concerts.

Suggest that he look for smallish fill PA speakers located across the front of the stage, or either side pointing toward the center and position himself near them or arrange for a clear line of sight between himself and them.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2022, 11:11:30 AM »
Definitely agree with the Omni rec. Brand/mic is personal preference, but I love my churches and wouldn’t want to stealth with a $2k rig.

The photo pit is definitely not the best place to tape a show, though as others have said, if there’s repeaters in the lip of the stage it could sound solid. I’ve made a handful of tapes from that sort of location and they tend to be mostly drums and will almost definitely lack vocals

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2022, 11:20:39 AM »
Been stealthing with a $2K-$3K rig for 30 years.   Go big or go home.   :headphones:

Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2022, 02:44:47 PM »
Another idea: DPA 4061's > DPA Dvice > Iphone/Android phone

Assuming they already have a phone, 4061's can be gotten used pretty easily - I see a set in the yard sale for $600 now. $659 for the dvice. So not cheap, but as stealthy as you can get & doesn't require a separate recording device.

Offline edtyre

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2022, 06:03:32 PM »
Been stealthing with a $2K-$3K rig for 30 years.   Go big or go home.   :headphones:

18 years for me, I’ll agree if you are serious about taping
get the goods right away, if you decide to get out, you can sell
without losing any money

My first rig cost 750, after I made one recording I was disappointed
My second rig cost 1400 I was still pretty much looking for better
Third times the charm!
music>mics>pre>recorder

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2022, 01:18:22 AM »
Been stealthing with a $2K-$3K rig for 30 years.   Go big or go home.   :headphones:
what's that, a dollar a show?
#amortized!

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2022, 03:15:06 AM »
My MK4s have made close to a 1000 shows over 30 years.   

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2022, 04:46:15 AM »
My MK4s have made close to a 1000 shows over 30 years.

It's all about personal perspective and parameters. I must have taped 30 shows in 15 years.

If I had infinite money in the bank, I'd probably run two Schoeps rigs (omnis and cards) in a row, but that's not the case.

And it's not a 2 to 3k question. You also have to spend money on tickets, travel, hotels, food, storage concerns for your recordings... Which multiplies the bill for each new show you attend.

I just can't afford it.

With that being said, I'm happy when a Schoeps tape of a favourite artist of mine pops up.

I'm actually happy whenever a tape doesn't sound distorted, or metallic, or muffled, or any other thing that can ruin a recording.

I also don't accumulate a shitload of recordings I'm never listening to. But I'm not being critical with people who do.

Just be happy.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 02:20:19 PM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2022, 11:46:45 AM »
I prefer the tone of my CA-11s to almost every Schoeps tape I've ever heard... ducks and hides

Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2022, 12:13:37 PM »
If they’re new to taping, some CA14s > batt box > recorder is a no-brainer. Can do it for $200 or less with used gear, and get perfectly fine/nice recordings.

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2022, 02:31:57 PM »
If they’re new to taping, some CA14s > batt box > recorder is a no-brainer. Can do it for $200 or less with used gear, and get perfectly fine/nice recordings.

If they can find CA-14 omnis, definitely.

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2022, 03:35:35 PM »
If they’re new to taping, some CA14s > batt box > recorder is a no-brainer. Can do it for $200 or less with used gear, and get perfectly fine/nice recordings.

If they can find CA-14 omnis, definitely.

Currently 2 in stock on CA's website.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2022, 04:35:28 PM »
There's actually an existing thread about that venue in the venue info section.

Here's what tapers have to say about the sweet spot:

Last I was there was for As the Crow Flies 18 months ago. They made folks set up on the level right in front of FOH, so a bit back from the sweet spot.

I'd go low profile and further forward...


Ditto....the board is under an overhang and for taper friendly bands they make you setup there in most cases. As Chect said if you lowpro you can grab the space at the rail dfcfob and it will sound killer

I ignore what DFC means. FOB is front of board. Also, I thought the rail was a reference to the space between the fence that keeps people away from the stage and the stage itself. But I might have been mistaken? Would be a curious place for the board...
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline jefflester

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2022, 05:01:01 PM »
There's actually an existing thread about that venue in the venue info section.

Here's what tapers have to say about the sweet spot:

Last I was there was for As the Crow Flies 18 months ago. They made folks set up on the level right in front of FOH, so a bit back from the sweet spot.

I'd go low profile and further forward...


Ditto....the board is under an overhang and for taper friendly bands they make you setup there in most cases. As Chect said if you lowpro you can grab the space at the rail dfcfob and it will sound killer

I ignore what DFC means. FOB is front of board. Also, I thought the rail was a reference to the space between the fence that keeps people away from the stage and the stage itself. But I might have been mistaken? Would be a curious place for the board...
FOB doesn't mean directly in front of the board, it means anywhere in front of the board, just to differentiate from an OTS, generally behind the board. "FOB" means anywhere between the stage and the board. And rail can mean a fence that separates the stage from the crowd ("rail rats"), but in taper talk it means an elevated divider/wall between sections. At this venue, there are even multiple "rails" between the board level and the stage, at the front of each terraced section. I've haven't recorded there in years, but my recollection is that the first "rail" is maybe even a little close, though it depends on how much stage fill PA there is and how much stage volume vs PA volume the band has.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 05:05:04 PM by jefflester »
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Offline checht

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2022, 09:34:19 PM »
Want to mention the new Zoom F3 as a good recorder for a noob, as there's no levels to set. Small, has p48 if desired, looks pertty promising.
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Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2022, 06:30:47 AM »
Want to mention the new Zoom F3 as a good recorder for a noob, as there's no levels to set. Small, has p48 if desired, looks pertty promising.

No levels? Does that mean you have limiter or automatic gain control applied by design and you can't disable it?

Can give ugly results in case you have sudden level fluctuations.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline hedfro

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2022, 07:29:44 AM »
No limiter. No level ‘cause its 32bit i guess
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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2022, 09:18:03 AM »
i came here to suggest the f3 as well. 32bit for low pro is a game changer. But the dvice is a pretty great solution too, and less likely to get noticed by security.
4015gs/4061->mma:a d-vice/mixpre 10 ii/zoom f3

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2022, 01:46:46 PM »
Been stealthing with a $2K-$3K rig for 30 years.   Go big or go home.   :headphones:

18 years for me, I’ll agree if you are serious about taping
get the goods right away, if you decide to get out, you can sell
without losing any money

My first rig cost 750, after I made one recording I was disappointed
My second rig cost 1400 I was still pretty much looking for better
Third times the charm!

You can 'get by" with AT 853, or Church Audios, but the gulf between the Churches and the ATs, and say MK4/4V>nbox plat_deck, is vast. If you can't swing the latter, I'd go DPA 4060/61>Church audio preamp>the handheld deck of your choice. If you go used should be like $600-800 for the mics, $100 for a used Church preamp, and $100-200, or less, for a good used deck. The DPA rig punches way above $1000 imho. Drag is the 4060/61 are omnis, but if you get close indoors in a good room, they do well, and kill outdoors. IMHO.
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Offline mrfender

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2022, 02:27:45 PM »
Been stealthing with a $2K-$3K rig for 30 years.   Go big or go home.   :headphones:

18 years for me, I’ll agree if you are serious about taping
get the goods right away, if you decide to get out, you can sell
without losing any money

My first rig cost 750, after I made one recording I was disappointed
My second rig cost 1400 I was still pretty much looking for better
Third times the charm!

You can 'get by" with AT 853, or Church Audios, but the gulf between the Churches and the ATs, and say MK4/4V>nbox plat_deck, is vast. If you can't swing the latter, I'd go DPA 4060/61>Church audio preamp>the handheld deck of your choice. If you go used should be like $600-800 for the mics, $100 for a used Church preamp, and $100-200, or less, for a good used deck. The DPA rig punches way above $1000 imho. Drag is the 4060/61 are omnis, but if you get close indoors in a good room, they do well, and kill outdoors. IMHO.

I'm in that area where I'd like to step up from AT/CAs but it's tough to justify the cost (for me any way).  I'd almost consider CM4s but you're probably not going to stealth easily with those.
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2022, 05:57:22 PM »
I bought some crappy Church Audio mikes and a battery box and after awhile realized that I wanted to get into this hobby seriously.  So if the taper is serious, buy the best mikes you afford, like Neumann or Schoeps. 

What I did to vet the possible mikes was to download 50-75 of the best sounding shows off The Dime and then looked at the gear being used.  The top 80% of the shows were Neumann's or Schoeps, with a smattering of DPA, AKG, and yes even some Church Audio mikes.  But the overwhelming majority of the good sounding shows were Schoeps or Neumann.  Schoeps stealths a little better and a bunch of California tapers use them, so I went on board with Schoeps and a NBox. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Offline kindms

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2022, 06:37:26 PM »
I bought some crappy Church Audio mikes and a battery box and after awhile realized that I wanted to get into this hobby seriously.  So if the taper is serious, buy the best mikes you afford, like Neumann or Schoeps. 

What I did to vet the possible mikes was to download 50-75 of the best sounding shows off The Dime and then looked at the gear being used.  The top 80% of the shows were Neumann's or Schoeps, with a smattering of DPA, AKG, and yes even some Church Audio mikes.  But the overwhelming majority of the good sounding shows were Schoeps or Neumann.  Schoeps stealths a little better and a bunch of California tapers use them, so I went on board with Schoeps and a NBox.

I wonder how much schoeps being one of the only serious mics to have modular options in years past played in to that. lovely microphones either way
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2022, 07:16:23 PM »
So if the taper is serious, buy the best mikes you afford, like Neumann or Schoeps. 

"Best mikes you can afford" is going to vary depending on, well, what you can afford. Agreed that those are the best, though, for those who can front the money.

Offline checht

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2022, 09:18:07 PM »
I bought some crappy Church Audio mikes and a battery box and after awhile realized that I wanted to get into this hobby seriously.  So if the taper is serious, buy the best mikes you afford, like Neumann or Schoeps. 

What I did to vet the possible mikes was to download 50-75 of the best sounding shows off The Dime and then looked at the gear being used.  The top 80% of the shows were Neumann's or Schoeps, with a smattering of DPA, AKG, and yes even some Church Audio mikes.  But the overwhelming majority of the good sounding shows were Schoeps or Neumann.  Schoeps stealths a little better and a bunch of California tapers use them, so I went on board with Schoeps and a NBox.
Concur with above and want to offer an alternate theory.
Not sure we can count on this being a causal relationship. What if all the 'best' tapers use Schoeps/Neumanns, and their expertise puts them reliably in the sweet spot, allows them to do great post-productoin work, etc?

Correlation looks a lot like causation in the real world. Just sayin'
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2022, 10:38:58 PM »
Having used Churchs, some other kind I cannot now remember, DPA and Schoeps and borrowed Neumanns, this is what I found:

Being in a crappy location (under a balcony, at the back of the theater, next to some talkers, or over at the side), what I found was that good microphones do a better job in a crappy location than cheaper microphones; and conversely, a crappy microphone in a great location can make a good tape.  Obviously, good microphones in a good location make as good a tape as one can get.  Small clubs or stack tapes close in?  DPAs did really well and are excellent stealth mikes. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2022, 10:57:41 PM »
Everything devolves into a shoeps or everything else argument. It’s so lame.

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2022, 04:39:18 AM »
There's also a omnis VS cards question you'll have to ask yourself.

I've always found Schoeps cards to be surgically precise... to the point I sometimes feel like listening to raw studio recordings rushes  where all the post processing and mastering work (eq, reverb, delay, compression, and so on...) is missing.

That's why I tend to prefer omnis over cards. It's, a live event we're trying to document.

It's a matter of taste. Again, I won't spit on a Schoeps tape. I won't spit on any decent recording tape. It's been said before but reaching the sweet spot is more than half the job done.

I bet you 99.99999% of the tapers would favor omnis if stars where always aligned regarding taping conditions (sweet sounding spot, sweet audience, sweet everything). Cards and subcards are better at cutting the shit off. Omnis are better at capturing the whole experience of a live concert.

BTW: Can we get anything better than DPA's for omnis???
« Last Edit: June 28, 2022, 05:50:52 AM by fandelive »
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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2022, 01:11:24 PM »
Everything devolves into a shoeps or everything else argument. It’s so lame.

No, Neumanns are also perfectly good microphones, and with good placement, AKG and DPAs are fine as well.  The DPA Card is a little big to stealth, but is doable.  The DPA Omni is a wonderful sounding microphone for small clubs or close in and ridiculously easy to steath. 

I did sound for a summer and while certainly do no have the knowledge that others here do, but .... when picking a microphone for a band or instrument, it really depends on the band, the sound you want to achieve, and the instrument.  There is no one size fits all. 

For super loud rock music on the balcony, I would pick an MK41 or a KM184.  I'm sure others with more experience than I would have other ideas as well. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2022, 05:15:23 PM »
This thread still reeks of the "if you don't spend a ton of money your tapes will sound like shit" circle jerk attitude that I hate about this place sometimes. Buy whatever mics you want, find the best spot and make a great tape. Way to make me feel lesser than. Goddamn

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2022, 06:43:52 PM »
This thread still reeks of the "if you don't spend a ton of money your tapes will sound like shit" circle jerk attitude that I hate about this place sometimes. Buy whatever mics you want, find the best spot and make a great tape. Way to make me feel lesser than. Goddamn

Yes, pretty lame sometimes and it gets tiring. Plenty of people with expensive gear make crappy tapes and plenty of folks with budget gear make great tapes.

Buy the gear at a price point you are comfortable with and figure out how to tape, figure out if the hobby is for you. If you think you might want to upgrade in the future, buy used and you can resell without a big loss. Or buy new if that is what you want. Whatever works for you. I don't think this hobby is for everyone and would hate to see someone spend $3K only to find out they hate it.
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Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2022, 06:57:17 PM »
This thread still reeks of the "if you don't spend a ton of money your tapes will sound like shit" circle jerk attitude that I hate about this place sometimes. Buy whatever mics you want, find the best spot and make a great tape. Way to make me feel lesser than. Goddamn

 :clapping:

Offline grawk

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2022, 07:18:02 PM »
Like anything else, you can spend whatever your budget allows and get varying results.  There are microphones that are better than others, and it's not elitist to suggest that.  It's not a bad suggestion to listen to a bunch of tapes and see if there are mics you like better than others. Combined that with the various form factor issues, you might save yourself a lot of gear churn, and be happier sooner. 

Some people like having lots of options, and some people like knowing they're starting from a known good place so they can tell what's their technique vs their gear.  Others like starting with the least expensive setup they can and turning out the best possible tape they can with that gear.  There's nothing wrong with either solution.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2022, 08:41:38 PM »
Some people like having lots of options, and some people like knowing they're starting from a known good place so they can tell what's their technique vs their gear.  Others like starting with the least expensive setup they can and turning out the best possible tape they can with that gear.  There's nothing wrong with either solution.

 ::) this is the exact sentiment that I'm talking about. Least expensive =/= unknown shit gear. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

There are microphones that are better than others, and it's not elitist to suggest that
I mean it kinda is. Microphones are different and serve different functions, have different pickup patterns, and different freq response over those pickup patterns. Just because one costs more absolutely does not make it "better" for every scenario.

Offline dyneq

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2022, 08:45:17 PM »
OP, regarding your original question:

Since his location may not be optimal (under PA and existence of fills unknown), suggest that you loan him one of your setups as a proof of concept. Perhaps omnis > bb > easy to operate recorder. Spend some time showing him how to rig & record and encourage him to practice until he’s got it down.

If he’s still excited about it after the experience itself & post-processing steps, then you guys can discuss specific rig choices. I really hope this opportunity works out and that we’ll see his stuff in the kickdown! ^-^

Offline grawk

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2022, 08:52:59 PM »
Some people like having lots of options, and some people like knowing they're starting from a known good place so they can tell what's their technique vs their gear.  Others like starting with the least expensive setup they can and turning out the best possible tape they can with that gear.  There's nothing wrong with either solution.

 ::) this is the exact sentiment that I'm talking about. Least expensive =/= unknown shit gear. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

I didn't say least expensive was unknown shit gear.  Lots of inexpensive gear is plenty good for what we do. But on a whole, the same taper with schoeps, Neumanns, dpas, gefells, etc is going to turn out a better result than with church audio, line audio, or $12 Panasonic caps.  But any tape that gets made is better than one that doesn't.

There are microphones that are better than others, and it's not elitist to suggest that
I mean it kinda is. Microphones are different and serve different functions, have different pickup patterns, and different freq response over those pickup patterns. Just because one costs more absolutely does not make it "better" for every scenario.

We're not talking about every scenario, we're talking about recording live music unobtrusively.  And yes, some microphones are absolutely better than others.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2022, 09:55:09 PM »
I didn't say least expensive was unknown shit gear

I had a whole thing typed up, but you're (whether purposefully or not) restating the same contradiction over and over and clearly not taking my point, which is:

Expensive =/= better for concert taping and it bugs me seeing people saying "crappy" mics, and "buy the best you can afford." It's not necessary, insulting, and hurts the already ailing scene.

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2022, 09:59:33 PM »
the same taper with schoeps, Neumanns, dpas, gefells, etc is going to turn out a better result than with church audio, line audio, or $12 Panasonic caps.  \

No
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Offline grawk

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2022, 10:03:35 PM »
the same taper with schoeps, Neumanns, dpas, gefells, etc is going to turn out a better result than with church audio, line audio, or $12 Panasonic caps.  \

No

Ok, cool.  Any examples?
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2022, 10:13:52 PM »
the same taper with schoeps, Neumanns, dpas, gefells, etc is going to turn out a better result than with church audio, line audio, or $12 Panasonic caps.  \

No

Ok, cool.  Any examples?

You have some? "Better" is subjective.

Offline jefflester

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2022, 10:15:24 PM »
OP, regarding your original question:

Since his location may not be optimal (under PA and existence of fills unknown), suggest that you loan him one of your setups as a proof of concept. Perhaps omnis > bb > easy to operate recorder. Spend some time showing him how to rig & record and encourage him to practice until he’s got it down.
Good suggestion, except OP doesn't actually even know the potential taper (and may even live in another country), so not sure how well that would work out. Sounds like it was more of a cold call.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2022, 10:19:11 PM by jefflester »
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2022, 10:54:11 PM »
I'd have the unknown taper do what I did and make up his own mind what microphones sound best to him.  Borrowing gear is probably the best choice, but absent that, downloading bands and shows you like and seeing what kind of microphone-preamp rig it was will provide some good data. 

Death Metal arena shows will probably involve a different mike set up than a folk act at your local club. 

Whatever sounds good to the unknown taper is what matters. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Offline dyneq

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2022, 11:23:55 PM »
OP, regarding your original question:

Since his location may not be optimal (under PA and existence of fills unknown), suggest that you loan him one of your setups as a proof of concept. Perhaps omnis > bb > easy to operate recorder. Spend some time showing him how to rig & record and encourage him to practice until he’s got it down.
Good suggestion, except OP doesn't actually even know the potential taper (and may even live in another country), so not sure how well that would work out. Sounds like it was more of a cold call.

Thanks, I didn’t realize he was in a different area.

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2022, 01:40:07 AM »
OP, regarding your original question:

Since his location may not be optimal (under PA and existence of fills unknown), suggest that you loan him one of your setups as a proof of concept. Perhaps omnis > bb > easy to operate recorder. Spend some time showing him how to rig & record and encourage him to practice until he’s got it down.
Good suggestion, except OP doesn't actually even know the potential taper (and may even live in another country), so not sure how well that would work out. Sounds like it was more of a cold call.

Thanks, I didn’t realize he was in a different area.

Yep, that's the case. Anyway, great suggestion!!
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Offline Dan33185

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2022, 03:59:00 AM »
This thread still reeks of the "if you don't spend a ton of money your tapes will sound like shit" circle jerk attitude that I hate about this place sometimes. Buy whatever mics you want, find the best spot and make a great tape. Way to make me feel lesser than. Goddamn

It's a big reason why I joined here and then didn't post for a long time, it was intimidating reading how much people were spending compared to what I was and the equipment I had. I reached a point in my life (age and maturity) where I stopped caring so much what people thought and started posting. There is still a feeling of superiority from some, but for the most part, I think people here are just trying to help others get the best results. Now, that being said, I've compared recordings I've made against other tapers and looked up the price of all the equipment they used. Some of the recordings sounded better, but I'll be honest, they didn't sound 2,000 dollars better. It really comes down to location, the board mix, and the crowd around you. Even the best equipment will have a recording ruined by an unruly crowd, and equipment on the cheaper end can produce fantastic results in the right condition. My motto is, better for it to exist than not, and I do the best I can to make the best quality recording I can given my budget.

Offline unidentified

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2022, 09:05:42 AM »
The law of diminishing returns is also very much at work here. A microphone that costs 10 times more than another will not necessarily sound 10 times--or even twice--as better as the less expensive one, if that. In any event, Opsopcopolis's many many fine recordings speak for themselves and for his skill in using them. To quote Grand Moff Tarkin, this bickering is pointless.

Offline unidentified

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2022, 09:08:16 AM »
This thread still reeks of the "if you don't spend a ton of money your tapes will sound like shit" circle jerk attitude that I hate about this place sometimes. Buy whatever mics you want, find the best spot and make a great tape. Way to make me feel lesser than. Goddamn

It's a big reason why I joined here and then didn't post for a long time, it was intimidating reading how much people were spending compared to what I was and the equipment I had. I reached a point in my life (age and maturity) where I stopped caring so much what people thought and started posting. There is still a feeling of superiority from some, but for the most part, I think people here are just trying to help others get the best results. Now, that being said, I've compared recordings I've made against other tapers and looked up the price of all the equipment they used. Some of the recordings sounded better, but I'll be honest, they didn't sound 2,000 dollars better. It really comes down to location, the board mix, and the crowd around you. Even the best equipment will have a recording ruined by an unruly crowd, and equipment on the cheaper end can produce fantastic results in the right condition. My motto is, better for it to exist than not, and I do the best I can to make the best quality recording I can given my budget.

Concur.

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2022, 01:05:15 PM »
the same taper with schoeps, Neumanns, dpas, gefells, etc is going to turn out a better result than with church audio, line audio, or $12 Panasonic caps.  \

No

This is ridiculous. Spend a couple of hundred bucks on Churchies>Churchie pre>deck and you can make OK tapes. That's what I made when I had a pair. That's it. Ok is fine, but please don't pretend that every time, top shelf mics in the same spot won't destroy the Church rig. Find me one example otherwise.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 01:10:59 PM by MakersMarc »
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2022, 01:13:28 PM »
Does a Martin Guitar sound better than a Yamaha? 

Does a dry aged prime steak taste better than a grocery store variety?

Does a Nikon SLR 20mp with a CMOS processor take better pictures than a cell phone?

Is it worth it to buy a Martin, a dry aged prime steak, or a Nikon SLR?  To some, yes.  To others, not. 

Choices, Budget, and Priorities are all in play here.  A casual photographer on a budget would opt for a cell phone.  A serious photographer, even on a severe budget, would sacrifice anything for a nice Nikon SLR.  The choice of any taper is similar.  How often will you tape?  How good do you want your recordings?  What is your station in life, unemployed or a medical professional? 

Sweetwater has a very comprehensive review of nearly every microphone based on the use (kick, guitar cabinet, vocals, bass, choir, cymbals, vocals podcast etc) 

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/the-ultimate-shootout-roundup/?mrkgadid=1000000&mrkgcl=28&mrkgen=gdsa&mrkgbflag=0&mrkgcat=insync&acctid=21700000001645388&dskeywordid=39700070910208954&lid=39700070910208954&ds_s_kwgid=58700005287210068&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&adpos=largenumber&locationid=9073456&creative=368676154748&targetid=dsa-1677853388074&campaignid=1503606222&awsearchcpc=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw8O-VBhCpARIsACMvVLMcIZFE_zhVWnWgwTEnCYweIq_hAQXh_h_LwdM1XNpOkVD60Dk1WeIaAiU3EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2022, 01:28:17 PM »
I know I'm an asshole, but i hate when someone posts Zoomie audio of, say, Dead Company. And the ticket was like $250. For fucks sake, if you can buy that ticket you can buy mics. Even cheap ones is better than a Zoomie. Pissing in the gene pool.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2022, 01:35:22 PM »
I know I'm an asshole, but i hate when someone posts Zoomie audio of, say, Dead Company. And the ticket was like $250. For fucks sake, if you can buy that ticket you can buy mics. Even cheap ones is better than a Zoomie. Pissing in the gene pool.
I don't necessarily disagree that it's unnecessary, especially in the context of dead and co, who release all their shows and probably get some of the highest numbers of tapers of any bands, but if I saw a zoom internals tape of a band that never gets taped, I'd be happy that tape was made. If you shit on a tape just because it was made with "sub par" gear, no matter the context, then you've gone waaaay beyond the heart/intention of the scene IMO.

This is ridiculous. Spend a couple of hundred bucks on Churchies>Churchie pre>deck and you can make OK tapes. That's what I made when I had a pair. That's it. Ok is fine, but please don't pretend that every time, top shelf mics in the same spot won't destroy the Church rig. Find me one example otherwise.

Destroy how? My point is you can't really quantify that difference. What makes it better for you? Audio is subjective

How often will you tape?  How good do you want your recordings?  What is your station in life, unemployed or a medical professional? 

Jesus Christ, I'm happy you're rich, but this is EXACTLY my point. I don't feel the need to upgrade everything I own just because I make more money than I did 10 years ago.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 02:00:19 PM by opsopcopolis »

Offline NSL

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2022, 02:03:03 PM »
ITT: People upset they spent thousands of dollars on gear when cheaper gear makes tapes just as good and sometimes better
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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2022, 02:35:28 PM »
I'm happy when anyone tapes.  I'm happy when people make better tapes than I do at the shows I tape.  Better tapes is always the goal.

It is possible to make great tapes with gear that isn't expensive?  Of course.

What does expensive gear get you?  Sometimes nothing, sometimes a better product.  Some of these companies have been in business a very long time, so you get the assurance that you'll be able to get support down the road if you need it.  That matters to some people.

Why did I buy DPA microphones?  Because I like the form factor, available pre-amp options, off axis response, detail resolution, and general sound characteristics.  Before DPA, I had schoeps.  If DPA hadn't gone to modular cables and hadn't had microdot options, I probably would have gone schoeps Nbob again.  Because to my ears, listening on my equipment, and for my use cases, they're the next best option.

If I had unlimited money, would I always pick the rigs I own? No, but I'd probably pick them most of the time.  But sure, every scenario has a different potential solution.

All that said, no one should feel bad about using what they like, even the "zoomies".  Make your recordings.  Do what you like.  Unless you're doing it for hire, it's all on you. 
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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2022, 02:38:12 PM »
This is ridiculous. Spend a couple of hundred bucks on Churchies>Churchie pre>deck and you can make OK tapes. That's what I made when I had a pair. That's it. Ok is fine, but please don't pretend that every time, top shelf mics in the same spot won't destroy the Church rig. Find me one example otherwise.

Here's a good example. https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=197917.0
Church mics ($35 used) directly into the miniplug input of a Tascam DR701d vs MBHO KA300/Naiant PFAs(~$1000)/DR701d. Mics run taped together.

It's surprisingly hard to tell the difference between the two. There are differences but not $965 worth of differences.

Law of diminishing returns...

Gets me annoyed when people turn these conversations into "super high end or give up" especially coming from our moderator with his go big or go home comment.

My best recordings have been made with mid/low end mics - Studio Projects, ADK, Berliner and what I consider the low end of the high end AKG, Peluso and MBHO. I did well when I had Neumann and Schoeps but I'm a blue collar working stiff and those didn't provide me with enough of an upgrade in quality to justify the increase in price.
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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2022, 03:13:36 PM »
Hey Roger, is there a second clip?
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2022, 03:15:44 PM »
Killer example goodcooker. I'd implore anybody asking for proof that cheap mics don't sound as good to provide proof of the opposite, or at least quantify in what ways the more expensive ones 'outpunch' the cheaper ones. I've asked like 4 times and have yet to get a single response...  :shrug:

If I had unlimited money, would I always pick the rigs I own? No, but I'd probably pick them most of the time.  But sure, every scenario has a different potential solution.

All that said, no one should feel bad about using what they like, even the "zoomies".  Make your recordings.  Do what you like.  Unless you're doing it for hire, it's all on you.

Yep, exactly.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 03:18:04 PM by opsopcopolis »

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2022, 03:16:33 PM »
Hey Roger, is there a second clip?

From the original post:
First 20 seconds is one pair, the next 20 seconds the other and so on...until around 1:45 mark there is one minute of each until the end.
The fact that you asked kinda proves the point

Offline fandelive

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2022, 03:28:45 PM »
Here's a good example. https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=197917.0
Church mics ($35 used) directly into the miniplug input of a Tascam DR701d vs MBHO KA300/Naiant PFAs(~$1000)/DR701d. Mics run taped together.

It's surprisingly hard to tell the difference between the two. There are differences but not $965 worth of differences.

Law of diminishing returns...

I don't consider myself as an elitist. I listened to your sample and both mics sounded pretty much the same. Only what I suspect to be the MBHO sounded slightly more defined to me, less muddy.

With that being said, this band only consisted in singers, acoustic guitars and a bass.

My guess is the more audio information your mics will have to deal with, the more the most expensive will outperform the cheapest.

Still, not saying it's worth the price gap.

As for the recordings I'm grabbing on torrent sites for more than 20 years now, I tend to rely more on who actually taped the shows than with what equipment.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 03:34:25 PM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2022, 03:37:33 PM »
I know I'm an asshole, but i hate when someone posts Zoomie audio of, say, Dead Company. And the ticket was like $250. For fucks sake, if you can buy that ticket you can buy mics. Even cheap ones is better than a Zoomie. Pissing in the gene pool.


ah, this is why I stopped posting in this sort of thread. I don't give a shit really, and my opinion means nada. I was somehow wired to want to output the very best product possible, period. Nothing less will do. It's a character defect that I've failed to stomp out. Kinda expensive too. I tip my hat to those with self-restraint, if you like your setup, go forth and have fun.  :cheers:
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Offline yug du nord

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2022, 03:46:23 PM »
There are plenty of ‘lower cost’ mikes that can make weak recordings.
There are plenty of ‘lower cost’ mikes that can make great recordings.
There are plenty of ‘higher cost’ mikes that can make weak recordings.
But, consistently…. ‘higher cost’ mikes make better recordings consistently.
‘Cost’ of mikes is purely subjective.

All mikes make better recordings when the user knows how to use the specific mikes.
All recordings are better than no recording.
IMO, don’t compare sources unless you want to spend money on more gear.
Being happy with what ya got is priceless..  until you hear a better source.  ;)
IMO.
YMMV.
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2022, 03:50:26 PM »
Hey Roger, is there a second clip?

From the original post:
First 20 seconds is one pair, the next 20 seconds the other and so on...until around 1:45 mark there is one minute of each until the end.
The fact that you asked kinda proves the point

not so much. i haven't listened at all.


I think of it this way; the span between say C11/14 to 4Vs, we're talking maybe about a 15-20% difference, if even. For example: I taped Mule fob last week, the sound was pristine at 25'. A Church tape would have sounded good. I wish I could live with 85%, it is waaay cheaper.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 04:02:05 PM by MakersMarc »
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2022, 04:05:45 PM »
I think of it this way; the span between say C11/14 to 4Vs, we're talking maybe about a 15-20% difference, if even. For example: I taped Mule fob last week, the sound was pristine at 25'. A Church tape would have sounded good. I wish I could live with 85%, it is waaay cheaper.

yeah, but 15-20% difference in what? That's my point. What are you measuring? Goodness?

Offline aaronji

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2022, 04:44:40 PM »
Buy what YOU like. Use what you buy. Simple.

Personally, I make my recordings mostly for myself. If nobody else listens and/or likes them, I don't really care.

yeah, but 15-20% difference in what? That's my point. What are you measuring? Goodness?

In my opinion, the biggest difference is that high-quality mics (not necessarily super expensive, incidentally) have smoother off-axis response. They also usually have better frequency curves, handle transients better, and have much better after-sales support as well a wide range of accessories.

In that vein, it is a mystery to me why Church mics are so frequently touted. Mine (CA-11) were wonky off-axis and, quite frankly, Chris Church is a churlish shit-heel. Completely unreasonable response and service times. Barely literate if you're lucky enough to get an answer in the first place.

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2022, 04:51:52 PM »
Recently I've been using Sennheiser ME104 (cardioid) and also ME102 (omni)
The Omni are similar to other good mics, but the card is special.  Very small, and very good sounding.Getting these on ebay for approx $100 each, cable + connector + capsule + optional metal windscreen.
Work well on plug in power (eg., Sony PCM-M10 or Zoom F1).Have not tried loud shows, but really good sound for the money IMO.
Enjoy,  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Scooter123

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2022, 05:24:05 PM »
You know, for some people

Freeze Dried Tasters Choice works for them, rather than Starbucks

Cell phone camera shots are just as good as a Nikon SLR

Church Microphones work for them

And for those people, if they don't notice the difference, then more power to them

Reminds of the shot in Pulp Fiction where Vincent tells Jimmy how good his coffee is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1-1dUbBjgE

Ultimately, its your money and your ears, and if you are happy with the rig, then that's great.  Trying to justify better microphones to someone who drinks freeze dried coffee because Starbucks doesn't taste 10x better to them, is a fool's errand. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2022, 05:26:24 PM »
 :banging head:

Offline yug du nord

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2022, 05:42:51 PM »
Off topic:

Let’s keep in mind playback systems.
My playback system is the weakest link of my rig listening experience.
It does what I want it to, but definitely could upgrade it.

Playback matters when it comes to rig sources also.
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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2022, 05:53:50 PM »
Agreed, and therein lies another conundrum

Does one start with a cartridge (for vinyl), because if the cartridge doesn't pick it up, the speakers won't play it?

The D-A module for those listening to digital sources?

Preampliers? Tube or Solid State?

Amplifiers?  Again, Tube or Solid State? 

Speakers?  Conventional ported speakers or ribbon type?

Again, its your money and your ears, and if one can't tell the difference between Magnaplanars and Polk Audio speakers, then in a certain way, I envy you.  Enjoy the Polk Audio speakers with your Tasters Choice. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline unidentified

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2022, 06:36:44 PM »
You know, for some people

Freeze Dried Tasters Choice works for them, rather than Starbucks

Cell phone camera shots are just as good as a Nikon SLR

Church Microphones work for them

And for those people, if they don't notice the difference, then more power to them



Reminds of the shot in Pulp Fiction where Vincent tells Jimmy how good his coffee is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1-1dUbBjgE

Ultimately, its your money and your ears, and if you are happy with the rig, then that's great.  Trying to justify better microphones to someone who drinks freeze dried coffee because Starbucks doesn't taste 10x better to them, is a fool's errand.

That's not at all the point and vastly exaggerates the quality range being discussed,  but whatever.  It's your opinion and I will respect it and your experience, although Starbucks is surely not the Schoeps of coffee.   

Here's my last word on this thread.  This site works best when folks are respectful, kind, and helpful.  I see that at work everyday here when some novice wanders in here looking for basic help and people jump in to offer guidance in a respectful manner (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=199646.0;topicseen).  Insinuating that long time tapers with vast experience (literally 50 years worth in my case) should stay home rather than record shows with their allegedly "crappy" mics is not useful and destroys everyone's chances to learn more about this great and odd hobby of ours.  I know that I have learned a lot here from kind and generous souls and continue to do so everyday.   Respectful communication, please.  Just saying.  Deep breaths and peace to all.  I will not be responding to this thread further. 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 07:49:50 PM by unidentified »

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2022, 10:21:51 AM »
I think of it this way; the span between say C11/14 to 4Vs, we're talking maybe about a 15-20% difference, if even. For example: I taped Mule fob last week, the sound was pristine at 25'. A Church tape would have sounded good. I wish I could live with 85%, it is waaay cheaper.

yeah, but 15-20% difference in what? That's my point. What are you measuring? Goodness?

I trust my ears.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2022, 12:09:56 PM »
I think of it this way; the span between say C11/14 to 4Vs, we're talking maybe about a 15-20% difference, if even. For example: I taped Mule fob last week, the sound was pristine at 25'. A Church tape would have sounded good. I wish I could live with 85%, it is waaay cheaper.

yeah, but 15-20% difference in what? That's my point. What are you measuring? Goodness?

I trust my ears.

 ::) ya ok
« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 12:13:15 PM by opsopcopolis »

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2022, 12:58:48 PM »
You know, for some people

Freeze Dried Tasters Choice works for them, rather than Starbucks

Cell phone camera shots are just as good as a Nikon SLR

Church Microphones work for them

And for those people, if they don't notice the difference, then more power to them

Reminds of the shot in Pulp Fiction where Vincent tells Jimmy how good his coffee is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1-1dUbBjgE

Ultimately, its your money and your ears, and if you are happy with the rig, then that's great.  Trying to justify better microphones to someone who drinks freeze dried coffee because Starbucks doesn't taste 10x better to them, is a fool's errand.

...and we have a winner!
😈 Mk4v/41v>nbob actives>Baby nbox>Oade warm mod Marantz 620.

Open: 4v/41v>nbobs>Nicky mod Naiant PFA>Oade warm mod 661.

Home: the Stereo Hospital budget refurb rig: Lappie>DragonFly Cobalt/Red with Jitterbug>Nikko NR520/Sansui 221>B&W V202 speakers.

Offline jcable77

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2022, 05:16:53 PM »
Its threads like this that make me say when people ask if Im "a taper" I respond with "no, I just record music".
« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 05:23:35 PM by jcable77 »

Offline tjj5036

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2022, 06:32:51 PM »
Damn this thread is getting spicy! To answer the original question I think SP-CMC-4Us w/ the 4.7K sensitivity mod > SP Battery box (SP-SPSB-10/SP-SPSB-11) > compact recorder (PCM-A10 / Edirol, etc) is the right way to go. Those mics + battery boxes rarely set off metal detectors since its mostly plastic and they're super small as well. Should run you like 400-500$ depending on the recorder you want to go with. I ran a similar setup and was very, very happy with how the results turned out at the types of shows you're describing.

I eventually went the Schoeps + Babynbox route and absolutely love the upgrade but I wouldn't start off with something like that. Start small, see if the hobby is for you, practice with the gear and get the hang of everything down first before deciding to go big. It's always worth having a backup rig anyway; whenever I travel for a show now I leave my AT853Us + SP-SPSB-10 in the car in case something goes wrong or I get busted with the beefier equipment.

There was a comment about downloading recordings to find the type of sound you like. Also recommend doing that but I think there is a bit of bias there in that the people running Schoeps/Neumanns typically know where to go in a venue to get a great sounding recording so the odds are in their favor to begin with. If you have a crappy spot in the venue the beefier mics aren't really going to help you out.

Good luck!
Bay Area taper that runs http://ratm.live . Please get in touch if you have any Rage recordings or know anyone that taped Rage! Always happy to tape a Bay Area show, get in touch if you want someone taped!

Mics: MK4s, AT853s, CA-14s/CA-11s
Battery/Pre: NBox+, Babynbox, SP-SPSB-10, CA-9200, Naiant Littlebox
Recorder: PCM-A10, Marantz PMD 661
Video: Panasonic ZS100

Offline Scooter123

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2022, 01:51:41 PM »
Damn this thread is getting spicy! To answer the original question I think SP-CMC-4Us w/ the 4.7K sensitivity mod > SP Battery box (SP-SPSB-10/SP-SPSB-11) > compact recorder (PCM-A10 / Edirol, etc) is the right way to go. Those mics + battery boxes rarely set off metal detectors since its mostly plastic and they're super small as well. Should run you like 400-500$ depending on the recorder you want to go with. I ran a similar setup and was very, very happy with how the results turned out at the types of shows you're describing.

I eventually went the Schoeps + Babynbox route and absolutely love the upgrade but I wouldn't start off with something like that. Start small, see if the hobby is for you, practice with the gear and get the hang of everything down first before deciding to go big. It's always worth having a backup rig anyway; whenever I travel for a show now I leave my AT853Us + SP-SPSB-10 in the car in case something goes wrong or I get busted with the beefier equipment.

There was a comment about downloading recordings to find the type of sound you like. Also recommend doing that but I think there is a bit of bias there in that the people running Schoeps/Neumanns typically know where to go in a venue to get a great sounding recording so the odds are in their favor to begin with. If you have a crappy spot in the venue the beefier mics aren't really going to help you out.

Good luck!

+1  I had the AT8 mikes after Church mikes and before DPAs and before Schoeps.  I disagree that better mikes in a crappy location will not make a difference.  MK41s for example are perfect for a bad location with talkers around you.  I don't run them much, but that is what they were made for.  I wish I kept my DPA Omnis. 
Regards,
Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline grawk

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2022, 01:59:59 PM »
4061s are pretty awesome for pulling tapes when nothing else will get in, and you have to try pretty hard to make them sound bad.
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2022, 02:19:01 PM »
I know I'm an asshole, but i hate when someone posts Zoomie audio of, say, Dead Company. And the ticket was like $250. For fucks sake, if you can buy that ticket you can buy mics. Even cheap ones is better than a Zoomie. Pissing in the gene pool.

Been out running my 4's and 41s out in the field so missed all of this but  :cheers:

Scooter's point with priorities is spot on IMHO.  If I am paying up for tickets in the prime spot and I have the cash to fund it why not.  I am going in with the best possible rig, going in with backups of every component in case of  a failure.  If spending $500 on the ticket is worth it to me compared to the $100 ticket then spending  $3K each on 2 rigs is also worth it for me.    Would  I be as into this hobby if I wasn't as invested?  Doubtful.

In the whole scheme of things this isn't a crazy expensive hobby.  I know people with other hobbies  like cars, boats, skiing, biking etc etc who spend vast sums because they can.  I also know others without the resources who also have those hobbies and spend what they can and enjoy it.  Relatively speaking, aside from tickets its less expensive than it used to be as well.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 02:23:44 PM by daspyknows »

Offline tjj5036

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2022, 09:13:37 PM »
Damn this thread is getting spicy! To answer the original question I think SP-CMC-4Us w/ the 4.7K sensitivity mod > SP Battery box (SP-SPSB-10/SP-SPSB-11) > compact recorder (PCM-A10 / Edirol, etc) is the right way to go. Those mics + battery boxes rarely set off metal detectors since its mostly plastic and they're super small as well. Should run you like 400-500$ depending on the recorder you want to go with. I ran a similar setup and was very, very happy with how the results turned out at the types of shows you're describing.

I eventually went the Schoeps + Babynbox route and absolutely love the upgrade but I wouldn't start off with something like that. Start small, see if the hobby is for you, practice with the gear and get the hang of everything down first before deciding to go big. It's always worth having a backup rig anyway; whenever I travel for a show now I leave my AT853Us + SP-SPSB-10 in the car in case something goes wrong or I get busted with the beefier equipment.

There was a comment about downloading recordings to find the type of sound you like. Also recommend doing that but I think there is a bit of bias there in that the people running Schoeps/Neumanns typically know where to go in a venue to get a great sounding recording so the odds are in their favor to begin with. If you have a crappy spot in the venue the beefier mics aren't really going to help you out.

Good luck!

+1  I had the AT8 mikes after Church mikes and before DPAs and before Schoeps.  I disagree that better mikes in a crappy location will not make a difference.  MK41s for example are perfect for a bad location with talkers around you.  I don't run them much, but that is what they were made for.  I wish I kept my DPA Omnis.

To clarify, having the better mics in a bad location will definitely help, but whenever I've done shootouts the difference is maybe like 10%. It's hard to recover from a bad location :)
Bay Area taper that runs http://ratm.live . Please get in touch if you have any Rage recordings or know anyone that taped Rage! Always happy to tape a Bay Area show, get in touch if you want someone taped!

Mics: MK4s, AT853s, CA-14s/CA-11s
Battery/Pre: NBox+, Babynbox, SP-SPSB-10, CA-9200, Naiant Littlebox
Recorder: PCM-A10, Marantz PMD 661
Video: Panasonic ZS100

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2022, 02:12:09 AM »
Damn this thread is getting spicy! To answer the original question I think SP-CMC-4Us w/ the 4.7K sensitivity mod > SP Battery box (SP-SPSB-10/SP-SPSB-11) > compact recorder (PCM-A10 / Edirol, etc) is the right way to go. Those mics + battery boxes rarely set off metal detectors since its mostly plastic and they're super small as well. Should run you like 400-500$ depending on the recorder you want to go with. I ran a similar setup and was very, very happy with how the results turned out at the types of shows you're describing.

I eventually went the Schoeps + Babynbox route and absolutely love the upgrade but I wouldn't start off with something like that. Start small, see if the hobby is for you, practice with the gear and get the hang of everything down first before deciding to go big. It's always worth having a backup rig anyway; whenever I travel for a show now I leave my AT853Us + SP-SPSB-10 in the car in case something goes wrong or I get busted with the beefier equipment.

There was a comment about downloading recordings to find the type of sound you like. Also recommend doing that but I think there is a bit of bias there in that the people running Schoeps/Neumanns typically know where to go in a venue to get a great sounding recording so the odds are in their favor to begin with. If you have a crappy spot in the venue the beefier mics aren't really going to help you out.

Good luck!

+1  I had the AT8 mikes after Church mikes and before DPAs and before Schoeps.  I disagree that better mikes in a crappy location will not make a difference.  MK41s for example are perfect for a bad location with talkers around you.  I don't run them much, but that is what they were made for.  I wish I kept my DPA Omnis.

To clarify, having the better mics in a bad location will definitely help, but whenever I've done shootouts the difference is maybe like 10%. It's hard to recover from a bad location :)

Sometimes you got to do what we did for Bright Eyes to deal with location issues.

Offline bonghitwillie

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2022, 04:50:46 PM »
you can always eq your recording in post and make it sound like a schoeps

Offline grawk

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2022, 05:38:17 PM »
you can always eq your recording in post and make it sound like a schoeps

no, you can’t improve off axis response or resolution with eq
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Offline Dan33185

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2022, 10:14:08 PM »
you can always eq your recording in post and make it sound like a schoeps

Or even better, make it sound like a SBD  :lol:

Offline adrianf74

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #91 on: July 05, 2022, 10:04:40 AM »
Oh, what the heck, I'm gonna chime in here.

I've been doing this now for 30 years myself come 10 days from now when The Cure played Toronto at the SkyDome in July '92.  I've owned a sh*t-ton of equipment over the years and this isn't to hi-jack or say one thing is better than an other -- it's more about saying don't do what I did trying to always find the next better option.

For recorders, I started with a loaned AIWA portable recorder before buying an analog Sony D3 pro Walkman, followed by a Sony D7 Portable DAT deck, back to a D3 pro Walkman after my portable DAT suffered a mishap near a mosh pit, a Sharp MD Recorder, an Edirol R-09, a Sony M10, and currently run a Sony A10.  I've also owned, for open recording, a Tascam DR-60, DR-70, DR-701, Zoom F4 and currently own a Sound Devices MixPre-6.

For mics, I started with the usual AIWA tie mic, then Sony tie mic, a Sony ECM-909, Core Sound Binaurals, Giant Squid Audio Labs Omnis (yeah, ugh), Sound Professional AT933 (whatever the model was), Church Audio CA-11's and CA-14's (omnis and cards), Church Audio CAFS and DPA 4061's.  I then "graduated" to my first low-pro open/007 rig with Naiant AKG Actives with CK63 and CK61 caps (2 sets).  I eventually sold all of that and moved to nBob actives with the Naiant power solution and Schoeps MK41 and MK22 caps.  After a life changing event around 2014, I sold off my gear the following year but then got the itch again and picked up a set of DPA 4061's with DPA D:Vice (for iPhone recording).  Realizing that carrying that wasn't much more different than running nBob actives, I ended going back to an nBob actives set with AKG CK63'w and a Baby nBox (which is where I am today).  Somewhere along the lines, I picked up a pair of Line Audio CM3's (which I use for open taping).

So enough about that.  I think the point that @daspyknows makes is simple (and several have told me the same thing over the years): buy nice or buy twice.

Granted, you want this to be your "first" shot at this.  Maybe spending $2500 today on "top notch" used gear is a little too rich for you.  I think back to buying my portable DAT and Core Sound Mics, and those were around $1300-1400 at the time (and that was 27 years ago) -- with inflation, this would be pretty much covering this rig and it's a million times better than what I started with.  There are other options, if you can find them, such as the AKG nBob actives with Baby nBox and AKG CK63 capules (which are harder to come by now as they're no longer being manufactured).  The AKGs are a little heavier (and larger) than the Schoeps but they're not at all impossible to work with.  You might be looking at $1300-1500 instead (which might still be a pretty large outlay). 

Crowds pre-Covid were pretty obnoxious but post-Covid is something else. You'll definitely want mics that can reject chatter next to you because it's almost impossible to get away from these days (so you'll need cards or super/wide cards).   This is why I would _AVOID_ the DPA 4061 (omnis) as they'll pickup everything around you.

If you want to get your feet wet, look at picking up some CA-14 or AT-843 (SP-CMC-4) Cards with 4.7k mod, with at least a battery box, and a Sony A10 recorder.  I love my A10 -- it's small, can be controlled via my iPhone (Everybody has phones out nowadays) and has never let me down.  Depending on if you buy new or used, you could be spending about $400-750 on this set up.

To the point a few people have made: with concert tickets costing what they do now, I want the best capture I can make.  The full-sized caps will smoke the smaller caps EVERY day. 

Where to stand -- not up front.  I've had to record some shows in smaller venues from the 3rd or 4th row but I would say somewhere between 50-70% of the way back to the soundboard from the stage is "ideal."  Let your ears do the listening and listen for where it sounds the "fullest."  I usually use the opener for this and then guess where I need to be for the main show (this is obviously for general admissions shows).

Best of luck!
Mics: AKG ck63 > nBob Actives, Line Audio CM3, Church Audio CA-14 | Decks: Sony PCM-A10, Sound Devices MixPre-6 II |Power: Baby nBox, (Rechargeable USB Battery TBD), Church Audio Ugly Battery Box

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2022, 10:45:02 AM »
Crowds pre-Covid were pretty obnoxious but post-Covid is something else. You'll definitely want mics that can reject chatter next to you because it's almost impossible to get away from these days (so you'll need cards or super/wide cards).   This is why I would _AVOID_ the DPA 4061 (omnis) as they'll pickup everything around you. ...

Where to stand -- not up front.  I've had to record some shows in smaller venues from the 3rd or 4th row but I would say somewhere between 50-70% of the way back to the soundboard from the stage is "ideal."  Let your ears do the listening and listen for where it sounds the "fullest."  I usually use the opener for this and then guess where I need to be for the main show (this is obviously for general admissions shows).


If the OP's contact is going to be recording high-SPL shows from the photography pit, though, maybe omnis will be okay, since there won't be as much chatter there and it'll be overwhelmed by the PA? Leaving aside the question of whether that's a good place to record from, that is. Amid all the, uh, strongly held opinions in this thread, there's been a lot of good info on mics, but maybe more attention should be focused on location — which is, as Gutbucket's Hierarchy of Recording Factors or whatever he called it reminds us, the most important thing to get right.

One other word in favor of AT-853s: You can get both omni and card caps for relatively cheap, so you have flexibility depending on the venue. And they hold up well, so they're easy to resell if you decide to upgrade.

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2022, 01:08:56 PM »
Adrianf74 said what I am saying much more eloquently.  If its a once in awhile endeavor it may be harder to justify the dough but if the mics are going to be used (my mk4s are at or near 1000 shows) then it's not a big cost per show. 

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #94 on: July 05, 2022, 01:43:34 PM »
I think of it this way; the span between say C11/14 to 4Vs, we're talking maybe about a 15-20% difference, if even. For example: I taped Mule fob last week, the sound was pristine at 25'. A Church tape would have sounded good. I wish I could live with 85%, it is waaay cheaper.

yeah, but 15-20% difference in what? That's my point. What are you measuring? Goodness?

I trust my ears.

 ::) ya ok

fk your eye roll. If not my ears, after 1000 shows, then it must be hard specs, right? That certainly doesn't help the case of cheap mics sounding "as good or better".

As many have said more eloquently, the first rule is "location, location, location. If you don't nail that, the mics you run won't help much, cheap or not.
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Offline roffels

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #95 on: July 05, 2022, 01:59:19 PM »
If you want to get your feet wet, look at picking up some CA-14 or AT-843 (SP-CMC-4) Cards with 4.7k mod, with at least a battery box, and a Sony A10 recorder.  I love my A10 -- it's small, can be controlled via my iPhone (Everybody has phones out nowadays) and has never let me down.  Depending on if you buy new or used, you could be spending about $400-750 on this set up.

Just to piggyback off this, this is my 007 rig. It works out well enough. I'm sure at some point, I'll want to spend more money but that's not in the budget right now.

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #96 on: July 05, 2022, 02:08:27 PM »
A lot of good points both ways. Obviously if you can afford the best it is worth making that investment. Schoeps, etc just sound a lot smoother across the entire frequency range. That said, if you are willing to accept trade-offs and willing to work on post-production, you can definitely make respectable tapes with lower end gear (not crap) that has a track record. I encourage everyone to get in where you are comfortable and upgrade as you go.
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); CA-14(c); Naiant X-R (h); Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D; Tascam DR-5; Tascam DR-2D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Naiant MidBox

Offline Dan33185

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #97 on: July 10, 2022, 05:26:30 PM »
Not to dredge this back up, but I was listening to a recording that made me think of this discussion. I found this:

https://archive.org/details/billystrings2022-06-29.omt7audmtx.perez.t-flac16/billystrings2022-06-29.omt7audmtx.perez.t-flac16

I went through and tried to price all the equipment used, and everything came out to roughly about 3,000 bucks. It's a good recording, very listenable, but is it 2500 bucks better than a 500 dollar (or less) setup? That's why I'm always of the mindset if it is within your budget, and you make a recording that you enjoy, then that's all that matters. Some people have more discretionary money to spend on a hobby, others are trying to do the best they can within a budget, neither should be judged.

Offline aaronji

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2022, 06:10:08 PM »
^ I get what you are saying, and generally agree, but the idea that the quality should be linear with cost is just off-base. It never really is, I think. Is a $500,000 Lamborghini 5 times faster than a $100,000 Porsche? Is a flawless diamond proportionately more beautiful to all but the most trained eye than one that is slightly off color, with some minor inclusions? Etc.

I would note in this context that I just got back from North Sea Jazz and recorded with my most minimal set-up (OCM PMD620 with Sennheiser MKE2s on plug-in power) and I think it turned out quite good from what I have listened to thus far. I do think my more expensive gear probably would have made better recordings, but there were other factors I was taking into consideration which made the tiny rig preferable to me today...

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #99 on: July 10, 2022, 06:16:42 PM »
^ I get what you are saying, and generally agree, but the idea that the quality should be linear with cost is just off-base. It never really is, I think. Is a $500,000 Lamborghini 5 times faster than a $100,000 Porsche? Is a flawless diamond proportionately more beautiful to all but the most trained eye than one that is slightly off color, with some minor inclusions? Etc.

I would note in this context that I just got back from North Sea Jazz and recorded with my most minimal set-up (OCM PMD620 with Sennheiser MKE2s on plug-in power) and I think it turned out quite good from what I have listened to thus far. I do think my more expensive gear probably would have made better recordings, but there were other factors I was taking into consideration which made the tiny rig preferable to me today...

They'll both get you to the same place though, which is my point.

Offline grawk

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #100 on: July 10, 2022, 06:36:08 PM »
if you don’t care about the results, sure.
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #101 on: July 11, 2022, 01:47:41 AM »
Not to dredge this back up, but I was listening to a recording that made me think of this discussion. I found this:

https://archive.org/details/billystrings2022-06-29.omt7audmtx.perez.t-flac16/billystrings2022-06-29.omt7audmtx.perez.t-flac16

I went through and tried to price all the equipment used, and everything came out to roughly about 3,000 bucks. It's a good recording, very listenable, but is it 2500 bucks better than a 500 dollar (or less) setup? That's why I'm always of the mindset if it is within your budget, and you make a recording that you enjoy, then that's all that matters. Some people have more discretionary money to spend on a hobby, others are trying to do the best they can within a budget, neither should be judged.

I looked at all the gear used for this and came up with a very different value. I've owned all this gear at some point and have a decent idea of the used fair value.
I came up with $1700.

Keep in mind that he has 7 mics, 4 preamps and recorder running for this and if you take that into consideration this is very much a budget rig. Just a really big one. Could he have made a recording that is just as good from the same spot with just the $300 or less AT 3031s in ORTF with the $125 Oade mod UA5 and the $200 DR680? For sure.

But your point is well taken and absolutely true. Not everyone has the coin to drop on a Schoeps\DPA\Neumann\insert whichever high end $3K for a pair mic setup and it's not necessary to make a good tape.

Location is #1
Gear and acumen are tied for #2

edit - this thread went down a dirt road into the bushes a little but the OP said in first post that the mystery newb was willing to spend some $$$ to get the best results. Results from the photog pit in front of the stage at a fairly large theater. Not a fan of recording from there but if I did and had to be 007 about it I would get some DPA 4061s, a small preamp and a recorder that is small and can be operated by an app like the Sony A10.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 02:03:06 AM by goodcooker »
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Offline Dan33185

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #102 on: July 11, 2022, 03:18:43 AM »
if you don’t care about the results, sure.

Or if you don't have the luxury to spend more money than you bring in on a hobby. Nobody should feel shamed for trying to record a concert, it says more about the person doing the criticizing than the person doing the recording.

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #103 on: July 11, 2022, 03:57:07 AM »
Well, last night I was able to do an A/B comparison between the prime location and nearly the worst location using a Schoeps rig although not by choice. Yesterday was day 4 of a 5 shows in 5 nights in 4 cities run.  Day one was a stadium show.  Prime spot in a poor sounding venue but good results.  Day 2 and 3 ten hours festivals where water not easily available.  Prime spots and very nice results but dehydrated by end of each night.  Next day 6 hours in trains traveling and further dehydration.  Evening show at the Paradiso which is a historic venue but a total sweat box.  No water sold but available at the bar in small cups.  Packed crowd 20 feet from stage dfc with a cup of water.  Trying to start and run gear one handed to save every drop.  A few songs in I knew I was in trouble and tried going as long as I could.  Sound was amazing in the sweet spot.  Getting close to hitting the floor I bailed and got water.  Too crowded to get back to spot and too dehydrated I ran from back corner of venue.  Recorder rest of show from there going to bar to get water every few sounds.  Definitely not best sound but I have heard some 10/10 and A graded recordings posted that sound far worse.   All in all I got a recording so will consider it a minor success.  Will both samples when I stop to breath since on a train in 90 minutes.

Offline grawk

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #104 on: July 11, 2022, 07:54:07 AM »
if you don’t care about the results, sure.

Or if you don't have the luxury to spend more money than you bring in on a hobby. Nobody should feel shamed for trying to record a concert, it says more about the person doing the criticizing than the person doing the recording.

i was replying to the ridiculous comment about the cars. But if you feel shame about your gear that’s on you, no one has said anything even close to trying to shame anyone for their choice in recording equipment.
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Offline mrfender

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #105 on: July 11, 2022, 09:03:00 AM »
if you don’t care about the results, sure.

Or if you don't have the luxury to spend more money than you bring in on a hobby. Nobody should feel shamed for trying to record a concert, it says more about the person doing the criticizing than the person doing the recording.

i was replying to the ridiculous comment about the cars. But if you feel shame about your gear that’s on you, no one has said anything even close to trying to shame anyone for their choice in recording equipment.

The only time I felt inadequate was my first Mule show and seeing the higher end setups.  Then I realized I can sit back and enjoy the show as the "pros" had it covered and not worry about sound levels or drunks spoiling my recording.  I started as I never saw the smaller shows on the various trackers so I got what I could afford and learned (internal mics at the back of a hall? Is there even someone singing on the recording?  :laugh:)
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Offline aaronji

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #106 on: July 11, 2022, 09:27:15 AM »
^ I get what you are saying, and generally agree, but the idea that the quality should be linear with cost is just off-base. It never really is, I think. Is a $500,000 Lamborghini 5 times faster than a $100,000 Porsche? Is a flawless diamond proportionately more beautiful to all but the most trained eye than one that is slightly off color, with some minor inclusions? Etc.

I would note in this context that I just got back from North Sea Jazz and recorded with my most minimal set-up (OCM PMD620 with Sennheiser MKE2s on plug-in power) and I think it turned out quite good from what I have listened to thus far. I do think my more expensive gear probably would have made better recordings, but there were other factors I was taking into consideration which made the tiny rig preferable to me today...

They'll both get you to the same place though, which is my point.

Sorry. I thought your point was:

That's why I'm always of the mindset if it is within your budget, and you make a recording that you enjoy, then that's all that matters. Some people have more discretionary money to spend on a hobby, others are trying to do the best they can within a budget, neither should be judged.

As I said previously in this thread:

Buy what YOU like. Use what you buy. Simple.

Maybe for some people, it is as simple as just getting from point A to point B. Others have different priorities. If that wasn't the case, we would all be driving econo-boxes. As far as gear scorn goes, incidentally, check out the auto enthusiast boards. WAY more brutal than here. As are the watch collector or photography boards. Even the flashlight guys get all worked up about it and spend thousands on modded or custom flashlights...

Offline lsd2525

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2022, 09:34:39 AM »
Where's Furburger when you need him?
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2022, 10:25:37 AM »
Well, last night I was able to do an A/B comparison between the prime location and nearly the worst location using a Schoeps rig although not by choice. Yesterday was day 4 of a 5 shows in 5 nights in 4 cities run.  Day one was a stadium show.  Prime spot in a poor sounding venue but good results.  Day 2 and 3 ten hours festivals where water not easily available.  Prime spots and very nice results but dehydrated by end of each night.  Next day 6 hours in trains traveling and further dehydration.  Evening show at the Paradiso which is a historic venue but a total sweat box.  No water sold but available at the bar in small cups.  Packed crowd 20 feet from stage dfc with a cup of water.  Trying to start and run gear one handed to save every drop.  A few songs in I knew I was in trouble and tried going as long as I could.  Sound was amazing in the sweet spot.  Getting close to hitting the floor I bailed and got water.  Too crowded to get back to spot and too dehydrated I ran from back corner of venue.  Recorder rest of show from there going to bar to get water every few sounds.  Definitely not best sound but I have heard some 10/10 and A graded recordings posted that sound far worse.   All in all I got a recording so will consider it a minor success.  Will both samples when I stop to breath since on a train in 90 minutes.

Damn, good on you for making it through all that. These days I feel too old to do 2-3 hometown shows in a row…

Offline Dan33185

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2022, 12:09:28 PM »
I fail to see the difference in the two points I made. Using the car analogy...if you have an older Toyota Camry that gets you from place to place, and you enjoy it, it's reliable, and you can't afford/don't want to upgrade to a Lexus, why should you? If people are getting recordings that sound good to their ears, and are happy with what they get, they shouldn't feel the need to upgrade just because people on a message board tells them their equipment is less than anything. Me personally, I'm happy when anyone records a show I was at before I started recording them myself. I've been trying to track one down for 15+ years that a user here has the only recording, but won't share it because he feels the quality is "sub-par". Well, right now I have nothing, so I'd take someone else's less than perfect recording over that right now.


EDIT-We've gotten too far astray from the OP's request, so I'll end it with this post, sorry to derail it, good discussion though, lots of points made both ways.

^ I get what you are saying, and generally agree, but the idea that the quality should be linear with cost is just off-base. It never really is, I think. Is a $500,000 Lamborghini 5 times faster than a $100,000 Porsche? Is a flawless diamond proportionately more beautiful to all but the most trained eye than one that is slightly off color, with some minor inclusions? Etc.

I would note in this context that I just got back from North Sea Jazz and recorded with my most minimal set-up (OCM PMD620 with Sennheiser MKE2s on plug-in power) and I think it turned out quite good from what I have listened to thus far. I do think my more expensive gear probably would have made better recordings, but there were other factors I was taking into consideration which made the tiny rig preferable to me today...

They'll both get you to the same place though, which is my point.

Sorry. I thought your point was:

That's why I'm always of the mindset if it is within your budget, and you make a recording that you enjoy, then that's all that matters. Some people have more discretionary money to spend on a hobby, others are trying to do the best they can within a budget, neither should be judged.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 12:12:32 PM by Dan33185 »

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2022, 12:10:51 PM »
if you don’t care about the results, sure.

Or if you don't have the luxury to spend more money than you bring in on a hobby. Nobody should feel shamed for trying to record a concert, it says more about the person doing the criticizing than the person doing the recording.


you are correct. I apologize for demeaning anyone's set up, that's something I thought I'd sworn off. Sorry to all i offended.  :banging head: :cheers:
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #111 on: July 11, 2022, 01:44:59 PM »
The point that got this whole mess started was the statement that better mikes (Neumanns, Schoeps, etc) do not necessarily sound better than Church or AT Mikes and if they do sound marginally better, then double the price does not equate to double the quality.  I disagreed with the first part of that statement and do in fact agree with the latter point. 

But I guess the consensus is that while better mikes sound better, the difference is marginal to some ears and budgets and significant to other ears and budgets.  If you tape a lot, Daspy's comment is spot on, as the price difference on a per show basis is probably a dollar, the way he tapes.  I bought the best pair of mikes I could afford, and then doubled down and got back up rigs. 

If you like this hobby, get the absolutely best mikes you can afford, they are a key component.  Also consider getting the same or similar rigs to those friends you have, so you can swap or borrow gear when stuff breaks. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #112 on: July 11, 2022, 06:17:29 PM »
Exactly Scooter.  Thx again for letting me borrow a 3rd set of actives and your babynbox.  If I knew security was going to be so easy I would have brought the NBox platinum too.

Offline robeti

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2022, 05:25:55 PM »
The point that got this whole mess started was the statement that better mikes (Neumanns, Schoeps, etc) do not necessarily sound better than Church or AT Mikes and if they do sound marginally better, then double the price does not equate to double the quality.  I disagreed with the first part of that statement and do in fact agree with the latter point. 

But I guess the consensus is that while better mikes sound better, the difference is marginal to some ears and budgets and significant to other ears and budgets.  If you tape a lot, Daspy's comment is spot on, as the price difference on a per show basis is probably a dollar, the way he tapes.  I bought the best pair of mikes I could afford, and then doubled down and got back up rigs. 

If you like this hobby, get the absolutely best mikes you can afford, they are a key component.  Also consider getting the same or similar rigs to those friends you have, so you can swap or borrow gear when stuff breaks.

I agree. I have severel mics (as you can see in my sig) and these days all I use is the Schoeps rig.
Couldn't afford it for years, than I could and did. Never looked back.

I see you run MK4's too. Are these worth having next to the mk41's?
mics schoeps mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/) | ca-11 c/o
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2022, 06:27:14 PM »
The point that got this whole mess started was the statement that better mikes (Neumanns, Schoeps, etc) do not necessarily sound better than Church or AT Mikes and if they do sound marginally better, then double the price does not equate to double the quality.  I disagreed with the first part of that statement and do in fact agree with the latter point. 

But I guess the consensus is that while better mikes sound better, the difference is marginal to some ears and budgets and significant to other ears and budgets.  If you tape a lot, Daspy's comment is spot on, as the price difference on a per show basis is probably a dollar, the way he tapes.  I bought the best pair of mikes I could afford, and then doubled down and got back up rigs. 

If you like this hobby, get the absolutely best mikes you can afford, they are a key component.  Also consider getting the same or similar rigs to those friends you have, so you can swap or borrow gear when stuff breaks.

I agree. I have severel mics (as you can see in my sig) and these days all I use is the Schoeps rig.
Couldn't afford it for years, than I could and did. Never looked back.

I see you run MK4's too. Are these worth having next to the mk41's?

I have both too.  I tend to run the 41's in arenas, stadiums and bigger festivals unless I am close to the stage.  In the 10 days I recorded on my last tripI used the MK4's 4 times and MK41's 6 times.  One of the times I ran the 4's I would have run 41's and vice versa but since both were GA the exact location wasn't known in advance.  I'd like a pair of subcardiods or omnis but doubt they would get used too often so I haven't pulled the trigger.

Offline robeti

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #115 on: July 15, 2022, 05:16:31 AM »
Thanks! So close to stage you'd use mk4?
mics schoeps mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/) | ca-11 c/o
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox 
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #116 on: July 15, 2022, 12:02:26 PM »
Thanks! So close to stage you'd use mk4?

Yes but by close I am talking 50 feet in a festival or stadium.  Not in the first few rows.  That is too close IMHO.  If I am more than halfway back to the SBD I am running 41s.

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #117 on: July 15, 2022, 12:15:33 PM »
The point that got this whole mess started was the statement that better mikes (Neumanns, Schoeps, etc) do not necessarily sound better than Church or AT Mikes and if they do sound marginally better, then double the price does not equate to double the quality.  I disagreed with the first part of that statement and do in fact agree with the latter point. 

But I guess the consensus is that while better mikes sound better, the difference is marginal to some ears and budgets and significant to other ears and budgets.  If you tape a lot, Daspy's comment is spot on, as the price difference on a per show basis is probably a dollar, the way he tapes.  I bought the best pair of mikes I could afford, and then doubled down and got back up rigs. 

If you like this hobby, get the absolutely best mikes you can afford, they are a key component.  Also consider getting the same or similar rigs to those friends you have, so you can swap or borrow gear when stuff breaks.

well said Scooter!
😈 Mk4v/41v>nbob actives>Baby nbox>Oade warm mod Marantz 620.

Open: 4v/41v>nbobs>Nicky mod Naiant PFA>Oade warm mod 661.

Home: the Stereo Hospital budget refurb rig: Lappie>DragonFly Cobalt/Red with Jitterbug>Nikko NR520/Sansui 221>B&W V202 speakers.

Offline robeti

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #118 on: July 16, 2022, 04:12:33 AM »
Thanks! So close to stage you'd use mk4?


Yes but by close I am talking 50 feet in a festival or stadium.  Not in the first few rows.  That is too close IMHO.  If I am more than halfway back to the SBD I am running 41s.

Very helpful advice! Thanks!
mics schoeps mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/) | ca-11 c/o
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox 
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline robeti

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #119 on: July 19, 2022, 11:09:52 AM »
Bought mk4s! Do you guys stealth AB or use some sort of bar to configure the mic xy? Does it really make a difference?
mics schoeps mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/) | ca-11 c/o
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox 
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #120 on: July 19, 2022, 11:19:28 AM »
Bought mk4s! Do you guys stealth AB or use some sort of bar to configure the mic xy? Does it really make a difference?

Congrats.  Lets take the 007 details off the public forums.  PM me or others if you want.

Offline hedfro

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #121 on: July 19, 2022, 01:16:38 PM »
Any private topics here for 007 details or only by pm ?
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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #122 on: July 19, 2022, 06:12:14 PM »
Taperchat limited to members but  >:D details should be addressed privately. 

 

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