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Author Topic: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022  (Read 23886 times)

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Offline Dan33185

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2022, 10:14:08 PM »
you can always eq your recording in post and make it sound like a schoeps

Or even better, make it sound like a SBD  :lol:
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Offline adrianf74

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #91 on: July 05, 2022, 10:04:40 AM »
Oh, what the heck, I'm gonna chime in here.

I've been doing this now for 30 years myself come 10 days from now when The Cure played Toronto at the SkyDome in July '92.  I've owned a sh*t-ton of equipment over the years and this isn't to hi-jack or say one thing is better than an other -- it's more about saying don't do what I did trying to always find the next better option.

For recorders, I started with a loaned AIWA portable recorder before buying an analog Sony D3 pro Walkman, followed by a Sony D7 Portable DAT deck, back to a D3 pro Walkman after my portable DAT suffered a mishap near a mosh pit, a Sharp MD Recorder, an Edirol R-09, a Sony M10, and currently run a Sony A10.  I've also owned, for open recording, a Tascam DR-60, DR-70, DR-701, Zoom F4 and currently own a Sound Devices MixPre-6.

For mics, I started with the usual AIWA tie mic, then Sony tie mic, a Sony ECM-909, Core Sound Binaurals, Giant Squid Audio Labs Omnis (yeah, ugh), Sound Professional AT933 (whatever the model was), Church Audio CA-11's and CA-14's (omnis and cards), Church Audio CAFS and DPA 4061's.  I then "graduated" to my first low-pro open/007 rig with Naiant AKG Actives with CK63 and CK61 caps (2 sets).  I eventually sold all of that and moved to nBob actives with the Naiant power solution and Schoeps MK41 and MK22 caps.  After a life changing event around 2014, I sold off my gear the following year but then got the itch again and picked up a set of DPA 4061's with DPA D:Vice (for iPhone recording).  Realizing that carrying that wasn't much more different than running nBob actives, I ended going back to an nBob actives set with AKG CK63'w and a Baby nBox (which is where I am today).  Somewhere along the lines, I picked up a pair of Line Audio CM3's (which I use for open taping).

So enough about that.  I think the point that @daspyknows makes is simple (and several have told me the same thing over the years): buy nice or buy twice.

Granted, you want this to be your "first" shot at this.  Maybe spending $2500 today on "top notch" used gear is a little too rich for you.  I think back to buying my portable DAT and Core Sound Mics, and those were around $1300-1400 at the time (and that was 27 years ago) -- with inflation, this would be pretty much covering this rig and it's a million times better than what I started with.  There are other options, if you can find them, such as the AKG nBob actives with Baby nBox and AKG CK63 capules (which are harder to come by now as they're no longer being manufactured).  The AKGs are a little heavier (and larger) than the Schoeps but they're not at all impossible to work with.  You might be looking at $1300-1500 instead (which might still be a pretty large outlay). 

Crowds pre-Covid were pretty obnoxious but post-Covid is something else. You'll definitely want mics that can reject chatter next to you because it's almost impossible to get away from these days (so you'll need cards or super/wide cards).   This is why I would _AVOID_ the DPA 4061 (omnis) as they'll pickup everything around you.

If you want to get your feet wet, look at picking up some CA-14 or AT-843 (SP-CMC-4) Cards with 4.7k mod, with at least a battery box, and a Sony A10 recorder.  I love my A10 -- it's small, can be controlled via my iPhone (Everybody has phones out nowadays) and has never let me down.  Depending on if you buy new or used, you could be spending about $400-750 on this set up.

To the point a few people have made: with concert tickets costing what they do now, I want the best capture I can make.  The full-sized caps will smoke the smaller caps EVERY day. 

Where to stand -- not up front.  I've had to record some shows in smaller venues from the 3rd or 4th row but I would say somewhere between 50-70% of the way back to the soundboard from the stage is "ideal."  Let your ears do the listening and listen for where it sounds the "fullest."  I usually use the opener for this and then guess where I need to be for the main show (this is obviously for general admissions shows).

Best of luck!
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2022, 10:45:02 AM »
Crowds pre-Covid were pretty obnoxious but post-Covid is something else. You'll definitely want mics that can reject chatter next to you because it's almost impossible to get away from these days (so you'll need cards or super/wide cards).   This is why I would _AVOID_ the DPA 4061 (omnis) as they'll pickup everything around you. ...

Where to stand -- not up front.  I've had to record some shows in smaller venues from the 3rd or 4th row but I would say somewhere between 50-70% of the way back to the soundboard from the stage is "ideal."  Let your ears do the listening and listen for where it sounds the "fullest."  I usually use the opener for this and then guess where I need to be for the main show (this is obviously for general admissions shows).


If the OP's contact is going to be recording high-SPL shows from the photography pit, though, maybe omnis will be okay, since there won't be as much chatter there and it'll be overwhelmed by the PA? Leaving aside the question of whether that's a good place to record from, that is. Amid all the, uh, strongly held opinions in this thread, there's been a lot of good info on mics, but maybe more attention should be focused on location — which is, as Gutbucket's Hierarchy of Recording Factors or whatever he called it reminds us, the most important thing to get right.

One other word in favor of AT-853s: You can get both omni and card caps for relatively cheap, so you have flexibility depending on the venue. And they hold up well, so they're easy to resell if you decide to upgrade.

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2022, 01:08:56 PM »
Adrianf74 said what I am saying much more eloquently.  If its a once in awhile endeavor it may be harder to justify the dough but if the mics are going to be used (my mk4s are at or near 1000 shows) then it's not a big cost per show. 

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #94 on: July 05, 2022, 01:43:34 PM »
I think of it this way; the span between say C11/14 to 4Vs, we're talking maybe about a 15-20% difference, if even. For example: I taped Mule fob last week, the sound was pristine at 25'. A Church tape would have sounded good. I wish I could live with 85%, it is waaay cheaper.

yeah, but 15-20% difference in what? That's my point. What are you measuring? Goodness?

I trust my ears.

 ::) ya ok

fk your eye roll. If not my ears, after 1000 shows, then it must be hard specs, right? That certainly doesn't help the case of cheap mics sounding "as good or better".

As many have said more eloquently, the first rule is "location, location, location. If you don't nail that, the mics you run won't help much, cheap or not.
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Offline roffels

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #95 on: July 05, 2022, 01:59:19 PM »
If you want to get your feet wet, look at picking up some CA-14 or AT-843 (SP-CMC-4) Cards with 4.7k mod, with at least a battery box, and a Sony A10 recorder.  I love my A10 -- it's small, can be controlled via my iPhone (Everybody has phones out nowadays) and has never let me down.  Depending on if you buy new or used, you could be spending about $400-750 on this set up.

Just to piggyback off this, this is my 007 rig. It works out well enough. I'm sure at some point, I'll want to spend more money but that's not in the budget right now.

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #96 on: July 05, 2022, 02:08:27 PM »
A lot of good points both ways. Obviously if you can afford the best it is worth making that investment. Schoeps, etc just sound a lot smoother across the entire frequency range. That said, if you are willing to accept trade-offs and willing to work on post-production, you can definitely make respectable tapes with lower end gear (not crap) that has a track record. I encourage everyone to get in where you are comfortable and upgrade as you go.
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Offline Dan33185

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #97 on: July 10, 2022, 05:26:30 PM »
Not to dredge this back up, but I was listening to a recording that made me think of this discussion. I found this:

https://archive.org/details/billystrings2022-06-29.omt7audmtx.perez.t-flac16/billystrings2022-06-29.omt7audmtx.perez.t-flac16

I went through and tried to price all the equipment used, and everything came out to roughly about 3,000 bucks. It's a good recording, very listenable, but is it 2500 bucks better than a 500 dollar (or less) setup? That's why I'm always of the mindset if it is within your budget, and you make a recording that you enjoy, then that's all that matters. Some people have more discretionary money to spend on a hobby, others are trying to do the best they can within a budget, neither should be judged.
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Online aaronji

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2022, 06:10:08 PM »
^ I get what you are saying, and generally agree, but the idea that the quality should be linear with cost is just off-base. It never really is, I think. Is a $500,000 Lamborghini 5 times faster than a $100,000 Porsche? Is a flawless diamond proportionately more beautiful to all but the most trained eye than one that is slightly off color, with some minor inclusions? Etc.

I would note in this context that I just got back from North Sea Jazz and recorded with my most minimal set-up (OCM PMD620 with Sennheiser MKE2s on plug-in power) and I think it turned out quite good from what I have listened to thus far. I do think my more expensive gear probably would have made better recordings, but there were other factors I was taking into consideration which made the tiny rig preferable to me today...

Offline Dan33185

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #99 on: July 10, 2022, 06:16:42 PM »
^ I get what you are saying, and generally agree, but the idea that the quality should be linear with cost is just off-base. It never really is, I think. Is a $500,000 Lamborghini 5 times faster than a $100,000 Porsche? Is a flawless diamond proportionately more beautiful to all but the most trained eye than one that is slightly off color, with some minor inclusions? Etc.

I would note in this context that I just got back from North Sea Jazz and recorded with my most minimal set-up (OCM PMD620 with Sennheiser MKE2s on plug-in power) and I think it turned out quite good from what I have listened to thus far. I do think my more expensive gear probably would have made better recordings, but there were other factors I was taking into consideration which made the tiny rig preferable to me today...

They'll both get you to the same place though, which is my point.
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Offline grawk

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #100 on: July 10, 2022, 06:36:08 PM »
if you don’t care about the results, sure.
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Online goodcooker

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #101 on: July 11, 2022, 01:47:41 AM »
Not to dredge this back up, but I was listening to a recording that made me think of this discussion. I found this:

https://archive.org/details/billystrings2022-06-29.omt7audmtx.perez.t-flac16/billystrings2022-06-29.omt7audmtx.perez.t-flac16

I went through and tried to price all the equipment used, and everything came out to roughly about 3,000 bucks. It's a good recording, very listenable, but is it 2500 bucks better than a 500 dollar (or less) setup? That's why I'm always of the mindset if it is within your budget, and you make a recording that you enjoy, then that's all that matters. Some people have more discretionary money to spend on a hobby, others are trying to do the best they can within a budget, neither should be judged.

I looked at all the gear used for this and came up with a very different value. I've owned all this gear at some point and have a decent idea of the used fair value.
I came up with $1700.

Keep in mind that he has 7 mics, 4 preamps and recorder running for this and if you take that into consideration this is very much a budget rig. Just a really big one. Could he have made a recording that is just as good from the same spot with just the $300 or less AT 3031s in ORTF with the $125 Oade mod UA5 and the $200 DR680? For sure.

But your point is well taken and absolutely true. Not everyone has the coin to drop on a Schoeps\DPA\Neumann\insert whichever high end $3K for a pair mic setup and it's not necessary to make a good tape.

Location is #1
Gear and acumen are tied for #2

edit - this thread went down a dirt road into the bushes a little but the OP said in first post that the mystery newb was willing to spend some $$$ to get the best results. Results from the photog pit in front of the stage at a fairly large theater. Not a fan of recording from there but if I did and had to be 007 about it I would get some DPA 4061s, a small preamp and a recorder that is small and can be operated by an app like the Sony A10.
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Offline Dan33185

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #102 on: July 11, 2022, 03:18:43 AM »
if you don’t care about the results, sure.

Or if you don't have the luxury to spend more money than you bring in on a hobby. Nobody should feel shamed for trying to record a concert, it says more about the person doing the criticizing than the person doing the recording.
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #103 on: July 11, 2022, 03:57:07 AM »
Well, last night I was able to do an A/B comparison between the prime location and nearly the worst location using a Schoeps rig although not by choice. Yesterday was day 4 of a 5 shows in 5 nights in 4 cities run.  Day one was a stadium show.  Prime spot in a poor sounding venue but good results.  Day 2 and 3 ten hours festivals where water not easily available.  Prime spots and very nice results but dehydrated by end of each night.  Next day 6 hours in trains traveling and further dehydration.  Evening show at the Paradiso which is a historic venue but a total sweat box.  No water sold but available at the bar in small cups.  Packed crowd 20 feet from stage dfc with a cup of water.  Trying to start and run gear one handed to save every drop.  A few songs in I knew I was in trouble and tried going as long as I could.  Sound was amazing in the sweet spot.  Getting close to hitting the floor I bailed and got water.  Too crowded to get back to spot and too dehydrated I ran from back corner of venue.  Recorder rest of show from there going to bar to get water every few sounds.  Definitely not best sound but I have heard some 10/10 and A graded recordings posted that sound far worse.   All in all I got a recording so will consider it a minor success.  Will both samples when I stop to breath since on a train in 90 minutes.

Offline grawk

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Re: Building a full 007 taping rig from scratch in 2022
« Reply #104 on: July 11, 2022, 07:54:07 AM »
if you don’t care about the results, sure.

Or if you don't have the luxury to spend more money than you bring in on a hobby. Nobody should feel shamed for trying to record a concert, it says more about the person doing the criticizing than the person doing the recording.

i was replying to the ridiculous comment about the cars. But if you feel shame about your gear that’s on you, no one has said anything even close to trying to shame anyone for their choice in recording equipment.
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