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Author Topic: Infinite Possibilities  (Read 1587 times)

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Offline checht

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Infinite Possibilities
« on: July 17, 2022, 03:25:19 PM »
I’m in Denver for a 2 week/14 show run working with a local band. I’ve brought a ton of gear, they’ve set up with IEMs, and I have full stage access. Soo many options, new gear to learn, and varying venues. Wanting to tap into the group wisdom for some input.

I’ve got mk41s and Vanguard V1s with omni through hyper caps. I get 2 aux busses on the Behringer monitor mixer so I can dial up a stereo sbd feed on my mac as I like it.

From experience with this band, I’ve found that the mk41s ortf @ 10’ in the center middle of the stage pointed down and a bit toward the house comes out well. Kind of uber-overhead, good overall stage sound plus nice cymbols.

Been running the V1s w omni caps, stage lip 8” above the deck, spaced about a quarter of the way in from the edges, point a bit outside of straight back.

First time w sbd mixer last night, adjusting on the fly, listening with Vic Furth isolating headphones. (They worked great, about 40db iso allowed me to actually hear the mix.) I focused on vocals, and some instrument sound to get the texture from effects that I often find missing from ambient mics.

Currently my strategy is sort of based on OMT thinking (Thanks GB!) that I use each component to build a full sonicscape that captures the moment and also brings key elements into focus.

Rough listen to last night makes me think I’m on the right track, but I have some questions, mostly about the sbd mix.

1. Currently using the 2 changes to build a stereo mix, with inputs panned appropriately. Recognizing that the ambient tracks will sound pretty centered, I hard panned the vocals proportionate to their location. It sounds good, but I’m realizing it is different from what I’m used to. I could switch it up, and use one channel for vocals, the other for instruments, and pan center. It’d give fine grained control of  presence, but adds to the ‘everything in the center’ sound.
2. Capsule/placement of V1s. Open card vs omni? (Got a bit more aud than I prefer last night. Wondering about moving them upstage and/or changing caps.) Spacing on lip? Stage sides vs lip?

Wondering what others have done in a situation like this. I don't think I want to run a multitrack recording off the X-18, multitrack mixing is a whole 'nother rabbit hole for another time.

I’ve got 12 more shows, so plenty of time to try things out.

TIA
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 03:43:33 PM by checht »
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6II -OR- Naiant IPA > Sony PCM-A10
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Niaint x8
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2022, 09:32:10 PM »
Getting a full multi from the board is going to net you the best, most flexible results. Period. If there's open inputs on the board, that gets even more flexible, because you can add in some of your room stuff. Even if you're not sure you want to use them I'd absolutely recommend grabbing multis every night and just putting them on a drive for the band. Bad recording juju to have that opportunity and pass it up IMO.

That said, if you really don't want to work with multis, there's obviously ton of options.

My first recommendation (which I honestly think is probably different from what most people here would recommend) would be to just use a standard matrix sorta config like most of the bands on nugs use. Build yourself a "recording mix" that suits your needs, and then find the best place to capture ambiance that leads to the best combined result (could try both omnis and cards at stage lip facing either direction.)  To your question about panning, I'm assuming you've linked the busses you're using for your mix? Start with the accepted generalities of band mixing: vocals, kick, snare, bass should all center; if there's two guitars or opposing guitar/keys, pan them opposite each other; spread the drums out and make sure there's stereo overheads to create some ambience. One really nice thing about the Berhinger boards with usb cards is that you can use multis to work on a mix, so if you take a multitrack of one night, all you need to do is hook your comp back up to the board, change the input settings to be taking input from the usb card instead of local inputs, and then basically build your mix from there. Gives you tons of time/flexibility to build a "perfect" recording mix. Are you the only one with access to their mixer/are you mixing the show for them? If so, it gives you endless freedom to basically mix the show for your recording, which is kind of taper's dream, although gets a bit more complicated if you're also running IEMs for the band at the same time.

If you've got a lot of gear you can always do a bit of everything, and since you've got run of the house, you can patch everything wherever you need it (deck on stage, run mics from FOH backwards through the snake). Grab the stereo recording mix, stage lip, house, on stage overhead like you were talking about, etc... and just see what combos sound best.

I've been touring with a band running monitors and FOH for them off a Berhinger X32, and have an M32 at my house, so I'm pretty familiar with that line of boards if you have any questions about board config or anything like that. What band are you working with/what sort of rooms are you playing? I'm flying in for a gig at the Fox in Boulder on 7/23 if you happen to have a night off!
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 09:36:00 PM by opsopcopolis »

Offline checht

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2022, 10:55:28 PM »
Heading out for a late show at So Many Roads for the after-string cheese crowd, so will read your informative post more thoroughly tomorrow.

We were at the Fox last night!

Band is using an x18 for iem mix, with each musician running their own mix from ipad. I have aux busses 5/6 to use for l/r, so not sure I can gang 'em. Not sure if I can take a multi out of the usb port, might need to run to my MacBook, then use Logic to record. And, just started using Logic after 15 years of Audacity, and have never recorded with it 😀.

23rd is Cervantes Other Side, so unlikely I can make the Fox show.

Thanks again!
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6II -OR- Naiant IPA > Sony PCM-A10
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Niaint x8
Recordings at LMA

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2022, 11:17:55 PM »
Band is using an x18 for iem mix, with each musician running their own mix from ipad. I have aux busses 5/6 to use for l/r, so not sure I can gang 'em. Not sure if I can take a multi out of the usb port, might need to run to my MacBook, then use Logic to record. And, just started using Logic after 15 years of Audacity, and have never recorded with it 😀.

You can definitely do both of those things. The Link button for those busses should be the first option on the home page when you have bus 5 selected (always links so odd number is left, even is right.) That's how you get stereo mixes in general (like if they have stereo IEM feeds.) You get a full multitrack out of the USB B port on the back of the board, just need a USB B > A cable (old printer cable) and you can use it as an interface for any DAW. I'd recommend something more lightweight than Logic (maybe Reaper), but Logic will work if you prefer it.

Offline phil_er_up

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2022, 07:38:14 AM »
Heading out for a late show at So Many Roads for the after-string cheese crowd, so will read your informative post more thoroughly tomorrow.

We were at the Fox last night!

Band is using an x18 for iem mix, with each musician running their own mix from ipad. I have aux busses 5/6 to use for l/r, so not sure I can gang 'em. Not sure if I can take a multi out of the usb port, might need to run to my MacBook, then use Logic to record. And, just started using Logic after 15 years of Audacity, and have never recorded with it 😀.

23rd is Cervantes Other Side, so unlikely I can make the Fox show.

Thanks again!
Are you doing this for Abear and Steely Dead?

His Bands played Carribou in ned friday, fox in boulder saturday and So many roads in denver last night, then Cervantes next week if I remember correctly. Almost went to the Ned show though it was suppose to pour rain...there was a flood threat. Thought about the Fox show though had a conflict with another show.

Does abear allow SBD feeds for his show?
If possible would love his contact info for future shows?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 07:41:26 AM by phil_er_up »
Everyday is a gift. Enjoy each one!
Forward motion bring positive results.

Offline checht

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2022, 03:04:47 PM »
Yes, I've been archiving for Dave and Matt and friends since I heard the first Steely Dead show. Here until 12/31 and catching TTB Red Rocks. Current calendar, though I think I'm missing a show or 2:
7/15 A very jerry band Nederland
7/16 SD Fox
7/20 Live/Dead So Many Roads
7/21 bro duo
7/22 A-Bear Lariat
7/23 SD Cervantes Other Side
7/24 Very Jerry Grateful Gnome Arvada
7/27 Live/Dead SMR
7/29 TTB Rox
7/29 Xtra Ticket SMR late show
7/30 TTB Rox
7/30  Xtra Ticket SMR late show

Also working my day job .75 so not sure how quickly I'll post.

[Edited to clarify it was when I heard first SD show.]
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 06:58:24 PM by checht »
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6II -OR- Naiant IPA > Sony PCM-A10
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Niaint x8
Recordings at LMA

Online fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2022, 03:41:23 PM »
Awesome taping schedule!
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); CA-14(c); Naiant X-R (h); Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D; Tascam DR-5; Tascam DR-2D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Naiant MidBox

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2022, 11:21:13 AM »
Yes, I've been archiving for Dave and Matt and friends since I heard the first Steely Dead show. Here until 12/31 and catching TTB Red Rocks. Current calendar, though I think I'm missing a show or 2:
7/15 A very jerry band Nederland
7/16 SD Fox
7/20 Live/Dead So Many Roads
7/21 bro duo
7/22 A-Bear Lariat
7/23 SD Cervantes Other Side
7/24 Very Jerry Grateful Gnome Arvada
7/27 Live/Dead SMR
7/29 TTB Rox
7/29 Xtra Ticket SMR late show
7/30 TTB Rox
7/30  Xtra Ticket SMR late show

Also working my day job .75 so not sure how quickly I'll post.

[Edited to clarify it was when I heard first SD show.]

Have fun.  Looks like my Europe schedule.  Posting takes time.  No worries, tapers who tape understand.

Offline checht

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2022, 05:44:48 PM »
So, I've confirmed I can run usb out to my macbook, but there's no way to use a usb stick with the x18. Trying to get set up to record w logic by then but not sure...

Reaper's a nonstarter for me, it is unreadable with low vision, and the accessibility skins are weak.

Fun Fun Fun!
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6II -OR- Naiant IPA > Sony PCM-A10
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Niaint x8
Recordings at LMA

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2022, 08:43:08 PM »
So, I've confirmed I can run usb out to my macbook, but there's no way to use a usb stick with the x18. Trying to get set up to record w logic by then but not sure...

Reaper's a nonstarter for me, it is unreadable with low vision, and the accessibility skins are weak.

Fun Fun Fun!

Ah gotcha. All you should need to do in logic is set your playback device/interface to be the X18 usb card and then cascade inputs (1-whatever number you're using.) On the x18 you may need to route the correct inputs to the usb card, but it may be done by default, don't really remember

Offline phil_er_up

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2022, 09:43:27 AM »
Yes, I've been archiving for Dave and Matt and friends since I heard the first Steely Dead show. Here until 12/31 and catching TTB Red Rocks. Current calendar, though I think I'm missing a show or 2:
7/15 A very jerry band Nederland
7/16 SD Fox
7/20 Live/Dead So Many Roads
7/21 bro duo
7/22 A-Bear Lariat
7/23 SD Cervantes Other Side
7/24 Very Jerry Grateful Gnome Arvada
7/27 Live/Dead SMR
7/29 TTB Rox
7/29 Xtra Ticket SMR late show
7/30 TTB Rox
7/30  Xtra Ticket SMR late show

Also working my day job .75 so not sure how quickly I'll post.

[Edited to clarify it was when I heard first SD show.]

Meet Chris yesterday and he was very nice and accommodating. Had fun at the show!
Everyday is a gift. Enjoy each one!
Forward motion bring positive results.

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2022, 01:48:44 PM »

Following along to get ideas for a similar but different situation. Picked up a Tascam 1082 digital mixer with an eye towards expanding my channel count and it's standalone capability. It was super cheap too. Heading down this direction at least to start and see where I end up.

Use the 8 inputs on the Tascam 1082 to create an on the fly mix to the SPDIF out > input on the DR680. I have an 8 channel TRS snake to tap the direct channel outs if available. I'd use this to create a more balanced mix than the typical matrix out that I normally get. Spot mics can go here too.

This frees up channels 1-6 on the DR680 for ambience/stage mics, main vocal or whatever channels need to be recorded independently (like it's a guitar driven instrumental band and I want a spot mic on the cabinet to mix separately). I end up with 14 channels - 6 ISOs and up to 8 channel SPDIF in.

The scenario here is likely to be for friend's bands. Incentivized live show recordings for Bandcamp or promotion via Soundcloud or Youtube. I'll not show up to a regular taper gig with all this, needing AC power and access to soundcheck to get it all dialed in. For that I usually just take my matrix feed if I can get one and hope for the best.
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Offline checht

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2022, 02:25:55 PM »
Sounds like fun!

Mostly, would advise showing up as early as possible to be able to work your on-the-fly mix and tweak mic placements.

I've found the Vic Firth Stereo Isolation Headphones to be super helpful for getting the mix set:
https://www.amazon.com/Vic-Firth-Stereo-Isolation-Headphones/dp/B0002F519I

Nothing better than a band that values your work and is willing to spend some time in soundcheck to get the recording right!
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6II -OR- Naiant IPA > Sony PCM-A10
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Niaint x8
Recordings at LMA

Offline yug du nord

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2022, 02:38:56 PM »
A good option IMO is 3ft (or more) split omnis + super cards in ORTF..  center stage, stage lip, with ORTF pair centered on drum kit.
Mikes kept low.. raised 3ft off stage.
Especially if you can pull vocals from SBD
I say 3ft split omni because you can run that on one stand with the 41’s..
Multiple stands for omnis could go wider and higher though.
It’s been years since I’ve played around with four mikes on stage though.. so YMMV.

Edit: that scenario is if drum kit is more or less center stage. If kit is off to one side, then ya gotta go with the flow and adjust as necessary. No super/hyper pointed directly at drum kit though. YMMV.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 02:52:15 PM by yug du nord »
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2022, 12:23:19 PM »
I'm curious to hear how your experience on the road has developed and if you've figured out some tricks.

Not to threadjack but I got the Tascam 1082 control surface in hand today and tested it in standalone (monitor mix) mode. It does in fact work exactly as expected as an 8 channel analog mixer and feeds the SPDIF input on the DR680 just fine. A bonus is that there's a 12V DC input and it works fine with a Talentcell 12V battery. I'd imagine that if I'm hauling a mixer to a show I'd have access to AC power but hey, bonus feature. It also has P48 for up to 4 mic inputs so I could run condenser mics off it as well if needed although I'd probably use one or more of my preamps for that. Or could add either digital output preamp I have to the digi in on this thing and have 10 channels to mix down. Gets me to 16 total with 6 of them being ISOs.

Not bad for $52 plus a little coin for shipping.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 01:06:31 PM by goodcooker »
Line Audio CM3 || ADK A51 type IV
SD MixpreD || Oade Warm Mod UA5
Tascam DR680 || Marantz PMD661 || Korg MR1 (homebrew internal battery mod)

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"I don't know who left this perfectly good inflatable wook doll here, but if I'm blowing her up, I'm keeping her." -  hoppedup

Offline checht

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Re: Infinite Possibilities
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2022, 05:21:14 PM »
This was an unusual opportunity to learn by keeping many things constant and observing the impact of certain changes. We don't usually have the chance to record in the same venue with the same band multiple times, and I found that I was able to increase my understanding of variables at a faster rate than usual. The 2 weeks was a great opportunity to refine my thinking about mk41s, get some first takes on the V1s, and learn more about mixing a sbd feed.

Throughout, I've been applying what I now think of as ORT perspective: Oddball Recording Technique. A shameless ripoff of GB's OMT, with the addition of a configurable SBD feed.

Starting with a sense of the desired final outcome, then proceeding to build it from available components by choosing mics, positions, and sbd mix seems like a perspective that can be applied on most occasions. And man is it fun!

~Chris
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6II -OR- Naiant IPA > Sony PCM-A10
Vanguard V1s matched pair
Niaint x8
Recordings at LMA

 

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