Topic: DPA 4060s/HEBs into iRiver/R09

[divamum]

(I searched, i swear I did... I'm SURE this has come up before but I just can't find it - feel free to point me to old threads if necessary!)

I'm very likely going to turn my 4060 wannabe status into the real deal early next year, and I'm just trying to get my ducks in a row.  Since Rockbox, I find I'm using my iriver 120 setup more than my JB3 and I'm hoping to add an R09 to the mix at some point as well so my Q is mostly relevant to those units.

1.  If I were to get a set of HEBs do I need the battery box as well?  I have to have SOME kind of line boost, thus anticipating running mic-in rather than line-in since I'm recording acoustic music (opera) and line in isn't loud enough.  Do the iRiver/R09 provide sufficient power using only the  mic in socket?  I would prefer to run without an external pre if possible simply to keep the amount of gear down to a minimum (I need to be serious stealth)

2.  If the mic in sockets on these units do NOT provide sufficient power for those mics, will it work to run Mics>BB>mic in without frying some portion of the chain?

Thanks in advance, and sorry again if this is a Q that has been addressed and I simply missed it!

DM

[WiFiJeff]

Instead of the HEB 4060s, get a standard pair with the microdot connectors.  This is a bit cheaper, and with what you save and a couple hundred more get a DPA MMA6000 preamp.  This will power the 4060s (and is not a whole lot bigger than a battery box, which you would otherwise definitely need) and is a very nice and easy to use preamp, designed for those mics.  Absolutely great for opera (but sit up close).

Jeff

[divamum]

Thanks Jeff - that's certainly an option, and one I'll check into in detail when it comes time to buy (countin' down... ).   That said, i'd REALLY like to run straight into (for instance) the R9 if that's a possibility - less is most definitely more in my situation.

But thanks for the info - I'm gathering from this you like your MM6000?

[WiFiJeff]

But thanks for the info - I'm gathering from this you like your MM6000?

It's very nice.  The only problem I've ever had with it is the connector for the 9V battery, which is not very robust.  I believe they have fixed this for newer runs of the MMA6000, and they replaced my connector under warranty. 

I'm pretty sure you'll need a battery box with the HEB, and the MMA6000 isn't all that much bigger, though you can get a really small battery box to replace the tank Len sells with the HEB set.

Jeff

[RebelRebel]

Thanks Jeff - that's certainly an option, and one I'll check into in detail when it comes time to buy (countin' down... ).   That said, i'd REALLY like to run straight into (for instance) the R9 if that's a possibility - less is most definitely more in my situation.

But thanks for the info - I'm gathering from this you like your MM6000?

Diva, just go with the MMA6000>>>"authentic" DPA setup...it will be a perfect match for you. Clean gain, stealth...robust!

[divamum]

Thanks bosy - your very positive feelings about this will certainly be taken into consideration!  What powers the MM6000 (I assume a 9v batt?), and roughly how long does it last?  Also, the MM6k is an analog pre with no ADC, right?

However, I'm still interested in info on non-pre options. Also,  just looking up prices I see that Sweetwater's DPA 4060s are $425 each - that  plus the DPA pre would bring me in considerably above the $900 HEB set which includes the BB (also, the picture of the BB at core looks pretty small, but I've never seen one live - if you say it's a brick, I believe it's a brick!).

Not arguing, here - as I say, the fact you both are SO quick to recc' the MM6000 is certainly something I will take very seriously - but want to get as much information on as many options as possible

[corsair]

The iRiver can power the DPAs sufficiently for most scenarios through the line-in jack.

[WiFiJeff]

(also, the picture of the BB at core looks pretty small, but I've never seen one live - if you say it's a brick, I believe it's a brick!).

It's small but heavy, all metal (as is the MMA6000).  After 9/11 I got a plastic battery box made that is both smaller, lighter, and not as likely to trigger a wanding.  The other advantage to the MMA6000 is that it has a battery light, which blinks green while the 9V cell is good, from the time it starts blinking red you get better than three hours remaining use (over 24 hours use in total from a 9V).  Before that, with a plain battery box, I was flying blind and ended up wasting a lot of 9V cells that still had life.  I figure the MMA6000 pays for itself in 9V cells every 20 years or so 

Jeff

[divamum]

Thanks Jeff.

To add to the question list: if one were to them w/an M6K, is there a cable adaptor that would allow them to be plugged directly into an iriver?

And any further info on whether an R09 WILL run them adequately mic-in? 

Thanks again boys - apprecaite the responses

[WiFiJeff]

Thanks Jeff.

To add to the question list: if one were to them w/an M6K, is there a cable adaptor that would allow them to be plugged directly into an iriver?

And any further info on whether an R09 WILL run them adequately mic-in? 

Thanks again boys - apprecaite the responses

I'm not sure exactly what you mean.  With the MMA6000 the 4060 mics have microdot connectors, and the cable out of the MMA6000 is 1/8" stereo.  I suppose you could get a dual-microdot to 1/8" stereo adapter to use them directly into an iRiver (if the iRiver can power them, which I don't know to be true), but I have not seen one of these.

Jeff

[§†∑∫åµÞ≥¥]

I think there's a Sonic Studios preamp/battbox which can be used too.... never tried it personally though.

[divamum]

 I suppose you could get a dual-microdot to 1/8" stereo adapter to use them directly into an iRiver (if the iRiver can power them, which I don't know to be true), but I have not seen one of these.

Jeff

Yep, that's the one I'm wondering about. It would be AWESOME if they could be made variable enough to run into both scenarios... (don't want much, do I?! lol)

Omg, roll on March 2007 (which is when I'll actually get to DO this)

[George]

FYI:

I paid $750 new for my dpa4061's and $469 for the mma6000.  The issue that I had with the mma6000 is that damn door that covers the battery compartment...it wouldn't slide across so I could access the battery compartment so I tore it off.

[Gutbucket]

Thanks Jeff.

To add to the question list: if one were to them w/an M6K, is there a cable adaptor that would allow them to be plugged directly into an iriver?

And any further info on whether an R09 WILL run them adequately mic-in? 

Thanks again boys - apprecaite the responses

I'm not sure exactly what you mean.  With the MMA6000 the 4060 mics have microdot connectors, and the cable out of the MMA6000 is 1/8" stereo.  I suppose you could get a dual-microdot to 1/8" stereo adapter to use them directly into an iRiver (if the iRiver can power them, which I don't know to be true), but I have not seen one of these.

Jeff

I'll second the MMA6k suggestion.  Very nice sounding, well built unit built especially for the 406x mics.  You can put it in one front pants pocket and the recorder in the other.  It is signifigantly larger, heavier & made of metal vs. the R-09 though.

Since the preamps in the R-09 seem to be pretty decent at lower gain levels, I've also wondered about eliminating the MMA6k for high steath situations that do not require as much quiet gain.  By the specs, the R-09 doesn't have sufficient plug-in power to power the 4060/4061's itself.  In light of that, I've been thinking about (4060>dual-microdot to 1/8" stereo adapter>batt box>R-09 line in) as well.  Or perhaps a custom batt box with microdot inputs and eliminate the adaptor.  Either way the cable or batt box with the microdots would need to be custom built.

I don't know of anyone who has tried to power the 4060/4061's directly with the R-09 but would be curious to know if it works and how much the performance is reduced if it does.  DPA makes a lower voltage version of the 4061, but not the 4060 (dont' know the number off hand, you can find it on the DPA site) that could potentially be powered directly from the R-09, but that's uncharted territory.  Uncertain if that version works with the MMA6k.  It's designed for use directly into lower voltage wireless systems.

You can get a little better deal on the DPA stuff from some of the smaller vendors recommended on this site & you'll support the smaller buisnesses that support us in turn.

Good luck!

[RebelRebel]

I don't know of anyone who has tried to power the 4060/4061's directly with the R-09 but would be curious to know if it works and how much the performance is reduced if it does. 

i ran dpa 4061 > iriver h120 via line in (2.5v of power) last weekend for a friend's band and there was no audible distortion.
others have also run the same setup a lot and reported no distortion problems except on VERY loud (i.e. ear bleeding) shows.
the spec for the dpa 406x series says that 5v is the minimum power required so i dunno what is actually missing from these 2.5v powered  recordings dynamics wise; if anything.  maybe it makes the mic distort at 140 dB instead of the spec 144 dB and doesn't affect the frequency response & dynamic range?

what you will be trading off with under powering is lesser sensitivity and worse signal to noise ratio.

[divamum]

I don't know of anyone who has tried to power the 4060/4061's directly with the R-09 but would be curious to know if it works and how much the performance is reduced if it does. 

i ran dpa 4061 > iriver h120 via line in (2.5v of power) last weekend for a friend's band and there was no audible distortion.
others have also run the same setup a lot and reported no distortion problems except on VERY loud (i.e. ear bleeding) shows.
the spec for the dpa 406x series says that 5v is the minimum power required so i dunno what is actually missing from these 2.5v powered  recordings dynamics wise; if anything.  maybe it makes the mic distort at 140 dB instead of the spec 144 dB and doesn't affect the frequency response & dynamic range?

Thanks y'all - this is VERY interesting indeed!!! 

Now I just need to find out if it's possible to get a 2microdot to 1 1/8" adapter so that it MIGHT be possible to use them both with an M2k OR run straight in.

And the other question I'm still trying to figure out - if I were to run them w/ a BB THEN into an RO9, using the pre in the R09 (eg NOT "line in" - I need gain from somewhere for opera) - would I fry something because it would be too much power?  I'm not clear if it would be possible to power the mics, but then use the pre in the device - that would be a really good compromise for me if it's actually technically possible...................

what you will be trading off with under powering is lesser sensitivity and worse signal to noise ratio.

[Gutbucket]

[Thanks y'all - this is VERY interesting indeed!!! 

Now I just need to find out if it's possible to get a 2microdot to 1 1/8" adapter so that it MIGHT be possible to use them both with an M2k OR run straight in.

And the other question I'm still trying to figure out - if I were to run them w/ a BB THEN into an RO9, using the pre in the R09 (eg NOT "line in" - I need gain from somewhere for opera) - would I fry something because it would be too much power?  I'm not clear if it would be possible to power the mics, but then use the pre in the device - that would be a really good compromise for me if it's actually technically possible...................

No problem with batt box>R-09 mic in.  You can turn off the supplied power to the mic-in on the R-09 via a menu.  For opera I think I'd use the DPA preamp if I had the choice, lots of dynamic range with quiet parts that require low noise.

If you find someone to make up the microdot>1/8" 'Y' adaptor I'll spring for one, too.  The microdot ends are the hang-up there.

[divamum]

[Thanks y'all - this is VERY interesting indeed!!! 

Now I just need to find out if it's possible to get a 2microdot to 1 1/8" adapter so that it MIGHT be possible to use them both with an M2k OR run straight in.

And the other question I'm still trying to figure out - if I were to run them w/ a BB THEN into an RO9, using the pre in the R09 (eg NOT "line in" - I need gain from somewhere for opera) - would I fry something because it would be too much power?  I'm not clear if it would be possible to power the mics, but then use the pre in the device - that would be a really good compromise for me if it's actually technically possible...................

If you find someone to make up the microdot>1/8" 'Y' adaptor I'll spring for one, too.  The microdot ends are the hang-up there.

Or (presumably), 1/8" termination on the mics  attached into a microdot splitter... 

For that matter, does the connector on the HEB's have a cable to turn it into a 1/8"?  The fact that the R09 would make it possible to run mics>bb>depowered-but-with-built-in-preamp would be pretty awesome for me ...

SOrry for the minutiae, and thanks again for all the replies (can you tell I'm slavering over a pair of these puppies?  In a perfect world I'd be buying new mics, M6K AND an R09, but I guess the madness has to stop somewhere. For the time being .... )

 

[Gutbucket]

Or (presumably), 1/8" termination on the mics  attached into a microdot splitter... 

That would be the best route for Ebay 406x that need their termination changed anyway from the LEMO's.
[edit] if you want to have the option of using the MMA6k or going direct in. [edit]

For that matter, does the connector on the HEB's have a cable to turn it into a 1/8"?  The fact that the R09 would make it possible to run mics>bb>depowered-but-with-built-in-preamp would be pretty awesome for me ...

The HEB's terminate in a shared mini XLR I believe.  To run them direct into a 1/8 jack (the line in of the R-09 or a non-HEB, 1/8" input jack batt box) you'd need a mini XLR>1/8" stereo adapter.  Not an off-the-shelf item, but the parts are easily available.

[Gutbucket]

I don't know of anyone who has tried to power the 4060/4061's directly with the R-09 but would be curious to know if it works and how much the performance is reduced if it does. 

i ran dpa 4061 > iriver h120 via line in (2.5v of power) last weekend for a friend's band and there was no audible distortion.
others have also run the same setup a lot and reported no distortion problems except on VERY loud (i.e. ear bleeding) shows.
the spec for the dpa 406x series says that 5v is the minimum power required so i dunno what is actually missing from these 2.5v powered  recordings dynamics wise; if anything.  maybe it makes the mic distort at 140 dB instead of the spec 144 dB and doesn't affect the frequency response & dynamic range?

what you will be trading off with under powering is lesser sensitivity and worse signal to noise ratio.

Thanks Teddy, that's what I figured, so for loud 'rock' type shows the trade off may be acceptable.

[divamum]

You can get a little better deal on the DPA stuff from some of the smaller vendors recommended on this site & you'll support the smaller buisnesses that support us in turn.

Good luck!

I think I'm out of the loop on this - which vendors? I've pretty much used SP for everything to date, so fill me in on some more of the good guys!

I've been continuing to think about this, and I think what I'd REALLY like to make happen if I can (it'll all depend on what I can afford to buy at once)

1. 4060s>iriver mic in (even if slightly under-powered, I think  it would be be fine for the "snoop tapes"  I run for myself in my small-room rehearsals and saves carryinig a lot of stuff around)
2. 4060s>bb>R09
3. 4060s>MK6>iRver/jb3/whatever else I'm using down the road

SO

Since I don't see myself being able to get mics AND R9 AND M6k all at once, I'm gonna have to pick and choose (sigh).   

So (sorry - bear with me as I think this through), it seems likely I WILL l need to be able to run the mics with both micro dots AND a 1/8" mini.  I suppose Len could  possibly do HEB's with the other connectors and breakout cables, but the 2 year warrantee is  defeinitely an incentive to go with DPA (esp if I can actually save a few $ as well).  And the cabling I'd like, as others have said,  is the sticking point - IS there any way to get a microdot Y---> 1/8? I found a single md---->1/8" adapter, but only a single, which won't do me any good (and they're $75 each!). Any sugg's of where to hunt for what I need?

Also, WiFiJeff - you said you had found a lightweight BB that runs your mics? Could you share how/where to find? Thanks

Thanks to you all  - I understand this all much better now (have only ever used plug-in power mics before, so this is new territory). 

Edited to add:  I suppose it might be possible to go the other way around - get them terminated in 1/8 and then adapt them TO microdots as/when needed down the line?  In that scenario, what BB would be appropriate for them?

[Gutbucket]

I think I'm out of the loop on this - which vendors? I've pretty much used SP for everything to date, so fill me in on some more of the good guys!

Bought my DPA stuff from Cascade Media, they were quick, proffesional, no problems what so ever, I've also been very pleased with SP.

[divamum]

I think I'm out of the loop on this - which vendors? I've pretty much used SP for everything to date, so fill me in on some more of the good guys!

Bought my DPA stuff from Cascade Media, they were quick, proffesional, no problems what so ever, I've also been very pleased with SP.

Thanks for the recc!   I just checked out their site and interestingly I  notice that they carry a 4063 ... which runs on lower voltage?  Would THAT possibly be a solution for me, meaning I could just run as I have to date using mic-in power and standard BBs?  Just curious.  And how does that SOUND comparable to the 4060/1?

http://www.cascademedia.net/products.asp?catid=114&prodid=1086

[Gutbucket]

= I just checked out their site and interestingly I  notice that they carry a 4063 ... which runs on lower voltage?  Would THAT possibly be a solution for me, meaning I could just run as I have to date using mic-in power and standard BBs?  Just curious.  And how does that SOUND comparable to the 4060/1?

http://www.cascademedia.net/products.asp?catid=114&prodid=1086

That's the version I mentioned that's designed for use directly into some low-voltage wireless systems. Could work nicely but is an untested config as far as I know.  Are you a willing guinea pig?  The questions I'd ask DPA or the reseller:

~What is the trade off for the lower voltage requirement? (looks like a lower SPL limit but I didn't actually compare the specs. IMO, that alone is not a problem)
~Can the 4063 be powered by the MMA600? (if you want to do that at some point)
~What is the current draw of the mic at that reduced voltage spec? (see below..)
~What's their return policy?

Keep in mind:
~The other side of the powering coin is sufficient current.  Since the voltage requirement of this version is reduced the current draw may be increased to compensate (I don't know if this is the case for this mic or not).  Whatever you plug the mics into needs to provide both sufficient votage and sufficent current to properly power the mics.  <this was an issue Leonard ran into testing the R-09 to see if it would directly power the DSM mics he sells which have a lower voltage/higher current draw than most 'plug-in power' mics. The voltage supplied by the R-09 (2.5v) was sufficient but the available current was lacking for the DSM's.  I don't know what the I-river supplies.
~The 4063 is unavailable with the higher sensitivity of the 4060, if the 4061 sensitivity is enough for you this won't be an issue.

[divamum]

= I just checked out their site and interestingly I  notice that they carry a 4063 ... which runs on lower voltage?  Would THAT possibly be a solution for me, meaning I could just run as I have to date using mic-in power and standard BBs?  Just curious.  And how does that SOUND comparable to the 4060/1?

http://www.cascademedia.net/products.asp?catid=114&prodid=1086

That's the version I mentioned that's designed for use directly into some low-voltage wireless systems. Could work nicely but is an untested config as far as I know.  Are you a willing guinea pig?  The questions I'd ask DPA or the reseller:

~What is the trade off for the lower voltage requirement? (looks like a lower SPL limit but I didn't actually compare the specs. IMO, that alone is not a problem)
~Can the 4063 be powered by the MMA600? (if you want to do that at some point)
~What is the current draw of the mic at that reduced voltage spec? (see below..)
~What's their return policy?

Keep in mind:
~The other side of the powering coin is sufficient current.  Since the voltage requirement of this version is reduced the current draw may be increased to compensate (I don't know if this is the case for this mic or not).  Whatever you plug the mics into needs to provide both sufficient votage and sufficent current to properly power the mics.  <this was an issue Leonard ran into testing the R-09 to see if it would directly power the DSM mics he sells which have a lower voltage/higher current draw than most 'plug-in power' mics. The voltage supplied by the R-09 (2.5v) was sufficient but the available current was lacking for the DSM's.  I don't know what the I-river supplies.
~The 4063 is unavailable with the higher sensitivity of the 4060, if the 4061 sensitivity is enough for you this won't be an issue.

Gutbucket, that post is really helpful - thanks! 

My hunch is that I probably DO need 4060s since I'm all acoustic, but then I don't know anybody who is running 4061s for classical so I've never heard them. What's the expert opinion on that?    I'll confess that I'm still enough of a n00b that even though I can see the numerical differences on the spec lists, I don't REALLY know what that means in real life applications to interpret the data.

Has anybody here run 4061s for acoustic/classical?

[RebelRebel]

I recorded a few things with the 4061s. (Chamber Music, Pipe Organ, transverse flute/soprano)

I felt that for my needs, they were a bit noisy, but the 4060s spec better. also, removing the covering from the mic gives a more linear response.

= I just checked out their site and interestingly I  notice that they carry a 4063 ... which runs on lower voltage?  Would THAT possibly be a solution for me, meaning I could just run as I have to date using mic-in power and standard BBs?  Just curious.  And how does that SOUND comparable to the 4060/1?

http://www.cascademedia.net/products.asp?catid=114&prodid=1086

That's the version I mentioned that's designed for use directly into some low-voltage wireless systems. Could work nicely but is an untested config as far as I know.  Are you a willing guinea pig?  The questions I'd ask DPA or the reseller:

~What is the trade off for the lower voltage requirement? (looks like a lower SPL limit but I didn't actually compare the specs. IMO, that alone is not a problem)
~Can the 4063 be powered by the MMA600? (if you want to do that at some point)
~What is the current draw of the mic at that reduced voltage spec? (see below..)
~What's their return policy?

Keep in mind:
~The other side of the powering coin is sufficient current.  Since the voltage requirement of this version is reduced the current draw may be increased to compensate (I don't know if this is the case for this mic or not).  Whatever you plug the mics into needs to provide both sufficient votage and sufficent current to properly power the mics.  <this was an issue Leonard ran into testing the R-09 to see if it would directly power the DSM mics he sells which have a lower voltage/higher current draw than most 'plug-in power' mics. The voltage supplied by the R-09 (2.5v) was sufficient but the available current was lacking for the DSM's.  I don't know what the I-river supplies.
~The 4063 is unavailable with the higher sensitivity of the 4060, if the 4061 sensitivity is enough for you this won't be an issue.

Gutbucket, that post is really helpful - thanks! 

My hunch is that I probably DO need 4060s since I'm all acoustic, but then I don't know anybody who is running 4061s for classical so I've never heard them. What's the expert opinion on that?    I'll confess that I'm still enough of a n00b that even though I can see the numerical differences on the spec lists, I don't REALLY know what that means in real life applications to interpret the data.

Has anybody here run 4061s for acoustic/classical?

[divamum]

Final Q (for the time being): I finally saw a decent pic of the HEB's + cs BB and see how the mics are terminated in the mini XLR AND the 1/8".  Can THAT 1/8" connection into something like the iRiver (even without the BB)?  Obviously, I realise there are still debatable power issues w/the iRiver, but I'm interested in whether or not the physical connection can run that way and produce a signal.    Or does it have to pass through the XLR connection first?  Sorry if this is really obvious - I've just never seen them in person, so it's kinda hard to tell how the chain works...

Tx again for putting up with the dumbass questions!

[WiFiJeff]

Yes, though I've only run the HEB into an M1 DAT and an R1.  Anything that will take a mic-in 1/8" stereo should work fine.

Jeff

[divamum]

Thanks Jeff - that's what I needed to know.

I fear this fact alone may swing me back towards CS. I was kind of hoping to avoid Len (although I've had no actual problems with him to date - he was positively expansive and (almost) charming last time i spoke with him) but I think the plugging (and the difficulty of getting m'dot ---> converters) may sway it for me. 

That said, still a good while to think about it.  I'll probably continue to vacillate until I actually put in the order!  Ah well -  researching and "talking" about it has not only made me better informed, but has also let me indulge my microphone lust without actually spending any money....

[WiFiJeff]

Gear slut confession:  I ran the HEB for a few years into an M1 DAT.  For acoustic recording, the DPAs were too high output for the Sony preamp but too low for the line-in, so I needed an attenuator cable (Len sells those too).  My attenuator failed at a bad moment, lost a great concert, and I decided it was not optimal to attenuate a signal so I could then amplify it.  That's when I got the MMA6000, which I have used with the M1, then for a year and a half with the R1, now with the D1.  And of course a new set of DPAs to go with it, with microdots.  I am wading in DPAs (never know when you will need a backup).

Jeff

[divamum]

Eeeeenteresting....

This of course for MY projected plans <rubs hands and cackles gleefully in anticipation> begs the question - would they need to be attenuated running mic in to an iRiver and power-off-pre-on into an R09?

Man. My cyberwindowshopping is getting out of control.

And I may have to hate you for having multiple sets of DPAs.  Or at least just be green with tapir envy

[Gutbucket]

No attenuation necessary into the R-09, it can accept a very hot signal and attenuate as needed using the level control for either mic or line in.  I'm unfamiliar with the IRiver.

[optimisticpessimist]

Final Q (for the time being): I finally saw a decent pic of the HEB's + cs BB and see how the mics are terminated in the mini XLR AND the 1/8".  Can THAT 1/8" connection into something like the iRiver (even without the BB)?  Obviously, I realise there are still debatable power issues w/the iRiver, but I'm interested in whether or not the physical connection can run that way and produce a signal.    Or does it have to pass through the XLR connection first?  Sorry if this is really obvious - I've just never seen them in person, so it's kinda hard to tell how the chain works...

Tx again for putting up with the dumbass questions!

I'm pretty sure that if you don't connect anything to the XLR, that you will not get a signal going into the 1/8" plug.  As I understand it, the signal goes from the mics into two of the connectors on the XLR, into the batt box, and then back out the batt box through two different connectors on the XLR.  With nothing connected, there's no complete circuit.

Apologies if I'm wrong here... but as long as I've owned my CSBs and DPAs, this has been my interpretation of the Y configuration that Len is using.