Topic: Bit Of Advice For A Semi-Newbie..

[Maverick33]

Hope this is the correct forum for this, wasn't sure if it should go under this or the mic section..

For a couple of years (until the end of 2008) i was recording shows from my local venue using a Sony ECM-719 & Sharp MD-MT80 - just for posterity really, unfortunately the venue closed so i kinda stopped recording..

Anyway my home town (Leicester, UK) has a flux a of new venues opening at the moment so my interest in recording has been re-ignited & i've jst purchased an Edirol R-09HR.

I can't seem to get my head around the minefield of mics that would be suitable to go with this unit so any advice would be greatly appreciated..

Not sure what kind of info might help in suggesting what mics, but my recordings would be indoor recordings - venues would range from 250 to 1500 capacity, with i guess odd times more than 1500..

Thanks in advance..

[adrianf74]

Hope this is the correct forum for this, wasn't sure if it should go under this or the mic section..

For a couple of years (until the end of 2008) i was recording shows from my local venue using a Sony ECM-719 & Sharp MD-MT80 - just for posterity really, unfortunately the venue closed so i kinda stopped recording..

Anyway my home town (Leicester, UK) has a flux a of new venues opening at the moment so my interest in recording has been re-ignited & i've jst purchased an Edirol R-09HR.

I can't seem to get my head around the minefield of mics that would be suitable to go with this unit so any advice would be greatly appreciated..

Not sure what kind of info might help in suggesting what mics, but my recordings would be indoor recordings - venues would range from 250 to 1500 capacity, with i guess odd times more than 1500..

Thanks in advance..

I really think we need a sticky here... If you do a little bit of searching in this forum, you'll see that the old question of "what mics should I buy to go with [recorder X] based on [Budget Y] pops up more often than Eggo Waffles in my toaster. 

There are about as many options available to you as their are opinions on this forum and we don't know your budget.  Honestly, though, I would suggest buying what you think sounds good by listening to shows recorded with various mics on LMA or DIME. 

As a starting point, you'll want mics and a battery box or, preferably, a pre-amp.  For mics, I recently switched to Church Audio mics after using Sound Professionals CMC-8's (AT-933) after eight years [with a few off in the middle].   I had bought the Church Audio CAFS omni mics last fall after having repeated bad experience with my cardioid mics in a well known Music Hall in Toronto.  I like the CAFS because of their size (very small).  Of course, I have to do a little EQ work in post after I tape but that's about it with them.  Because of my experiences with them, as well as talking to a few people on here, I ended up buying the CA-14 omni and cardioid mics with a ST-9100 preamp.  Right now, Chris has a July sale on for US$279 + shipping.  I think the value is there considering you're paying under $300 and get 2 different patterned mics which can be used in different ways plus a preamp.  With the Edirol R09 and R09HR, the noise floor isn't the greatest so keeping the recorder in unity and then gaining up the mics from the preamp results in better recordings.  I just used the CA-14 cardioid mics a week back and made an excellent recording.  By purchasing the package, you have mics that you can use to "stack tape" or another pair that you can use from standing/sitting closer to the soundboard.   

Feel free to ask more questions... people here are pretty friendly and willing to offer advice.   I think the million dollar (pound?) question is... what's your budget for mics/preamp?

[acidjack]

Question A would be, how much do you want to spend?

I assume you are stealthing also given that you're in the UK.   Here is a short list of some typical small mics and their price, with comments... Also, with most of these, you'll need some kind of power supply. I recommend a simple small battery box, either the ones made by Chris Church or the ones made by Sound Professionals.  They are $65 or so. People will try to push you to get a preamp; I think that is a waste quite frankly for stealth rock recording with inexpensive mics, and it costs more and takes up more space.  Frankly I can't tell much or any difference between my DPA 4021s running into a preamp vs. running off a basic 48v power supply direct into my Sony M10, for stealthing anyway.

The "Big 4" standard inexpensive mics:
Church CA-11 (under $150, see "Retail Space" below).  Pretty standard, solid mic. Handmade, will take some time to get to you. 
Church CA-14 (at or under $150).  Larger mic made by same manufacturer.  For very stealthy situations, maybe not recommended due to larger size.
SP-CMC-8 (~$250). aka the AT943.  Comparable in quality to the Church mics; mostly a matter of taste.  Bass is pretty rolled off as it is with the CA-11
SP-CMC-4 (~$200), aka the AT U853.  Larger than SP-CMC-8 or CA-11 mic, will need to be worn in a hat. Better bass response. Comparable to CA-14.

All of the above come in cardiod and omnidirectional; if you can swing it, I recommend both; if not, get a cardiod mic.  The Sound Professionals (SP) mics also come in hypercardiod.  I don't recommend buying that unless everything you do is in a stadium.

Mid-range priced mics:
Countryman B3 - gets raves around here from those who use them.  About $330 I think.  Extremely small.  Omnidirectional only.
Audix 1280c + Church active cables - Around $400.  Body and cable is the same as CA-11 cosmetically, but you buy an Audix capsule that, IMHO, has a bit better performance than the CA-11. 
AKG ck9x active setup.  Takes a bit of doing but IMHO sounds better than all of the above.  You buy two AKG mic capsules then have someone wire them up and make a custom battbox.  Church can do a preamp for these.  For someone starting back out, probably not a good option, but it's cheap (~$500) and sounds awesome.
Nevaton MCE400.  Omnidirectional only. Only has XLR connectors, which is less than ideal, but sounds great. $400 used right now in the yard sale.
Sonic Studios DSM-6S.  The mic of choice in the 90s, it has had a harder time competing on price as these are about $600.  They are, however, excellent mics and the recordings made with them attest to that.

High-end mics:
Probably just an aspirational list for you at this point, but:
DPA 4061/4060 - tiny like the Countryman mics, very stealthy.  Omnidirectional only. $1000
Schoeps Mk4/mk41>CMR cables or KC5 cables>NBox or TinyBox - $3000. Amazing sound.
DPA 4021 - amazing sound, and unlike the Schoeops, does not require any special cable (hard wired with its own cable, bodies are small as-is).  $3000

The standard advice around here these days is, "buy Church Audio mics."  And it's not bad advice.  However, a) there are lots of mics out there and b) a lot of the people recommending solutions haven't tried very many of them.  I don't know everything or even as much as many people here.  But I have tried lots of mics and taped a fairly big number of shows... The bottom line is, it's a personal preference and a money issue.  Generally speaking, sadly, you get what you pay for.  Spend more, get better mics.  Buy nice or buy twice, etc. (advice I give but failed utterly to take).  All of that said, the Church mics are hard to argue with given that a) they work, b) most people like how they sound, c) Chris is a nice guy and very supportive of TS.com and d) the price is right, so if you don't like them, you haven't sunk a fortune into them.

Hope that helps.

[Maverick33]

Thanks for the advie so far - i'll have a proper read through later.. But sa budget has been mentioned to help determine what would be the best way to go i thought i'd add that..

I don't have a budget as such, but guess i wouldn't want to go more that 200-300 UK Pounds which would be approx 300-450 US Dollars to start off with.

[setboy]

These would make good mics for that budget. http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=137327.0
don't take my word though. do some research.

[adrianf74]

Again, as acidjack (and I) have pointed out... do yourself a favour and listen to a bunch of shows to hear what they sound like to you.  I always say mics are like underwear: some prefer boxers, others briefs.  Mics are NO different.

I really don't like the sound out of the AT-943/c (CMC-8) and find it rather thin... I had its predecessor (AT-933/c) which was deemed to be a better mic.  I prefer the CA-14, however, its size is a little bigger than my old AT-933/c. The AT-943/c is smaller and thinner than the older version.  If you're gonna go with the AT-853, I'd look at the CA-14's.  But, as has been already said, give 'em all a listen and figure out what works best for you... and what you like.

I know that GutBucket just did a comp with the DPA 4060 ($1000) and Church-Audio CA-1 (not mentioned here... but on pre-sale for $80).    Apparently they're pretty close - I'd like to compare the audio samples at home on my stereo rather than crap Altec Lansing speakers at work so I'll do that. 

The Countryman B3's on sale in the Yard are also a good deal... but again, it's whatever you think sounds the best to you. 

[acidjack]

That CA-1 comp was pretty compelling. I may have to buy some just because, I, er, need some more mics... .... or, er... something...

[adrianf74]

That CA-1 comp was pretty compelling. I may have to buy some just because, I, er, need some more mics... .... or, er... something...

LOL.  I was just gonna say... I just spent welll over $400 with Chris in the past month or so... CA-14/o, CA-14/c, 9100 Pre, Dead Rats, 1' Flexible Cable, Ugly Battery Box.  Now I'm thinking these have potential --- however, I do have the CAFS and have heard there isn't a major difference between the two... so I might just wait.