Topic: Rear-facing audience mics: Wow. New links added.

[thunderbolt]

Tonight I recorded at an outside venue I frequent, which has an incredible FOH (Brandon Cecil of Impact Audio--plug!)  I recorded a SBD feed, a forward set of Schoeps Mk. 5 in cardioid (DIN) and a rearward-facing pair of Mk. 41s (AB at 60 cm).  I figured I would use the envelope function to essentially add applause to the mix at the end of songs, and after solos.  What I didn't anticipate was the extra dimension that those rearward-facing mics brought to the mix.  It was as striking as the first time I made a SBD + AUD matrix.  There is an entirely new sense of depth and spaciousness to the recording that is truly mind-blowing.  It is extra work, with extra channels, but it was definitely worth it.  So glad I tried it.  The DR-680, fed 12V from a Naztech, performed flawlessly.

Addendum:  Three clips down the thread with solo forward mics, SBD + forward mics, and SBD + forward + rear mics.

[rocksuitcase]

kindms and I have been using his 414 XLS's in a "Bi-directional" or Blumlein config for certain situations for some time now. Usually outdoors and with crowds that are hopefully more polite than some. We set them up in a coincident crossed physical config, and set them to figure 8. We have always noticed the openness and ambient quality you are mentioning with your rearward facing MK 41s. The rear lobes of the figure 8s bring out some extra dimensionality to the recording but of course present objectionable audience noise into the mix if you are only using 2 channels.
Recently, at Phish SPAC 2014-07-05 we ran MS with his 414s from the lawn with the stand about 12 feet up. Overall it is a pretty good recording, the overall sound quality and tonality beats the crap off of our "safety" recording made with AKG C460 w/ck 8 short shots. As kindms said about the 414s MS, "the audience is DEFINITELY a part of the recording".
One question: were your rearward facing mics FOH or on stage? a lot of large stage A-list performers' sound crews place on stage shotguns facing toward the audience to get the same effect you hear with your mk 41 channels.

[thunderbolt]

I mounted the rearward Mk. 41s on the same bar as the forward-facing Mk. 5s.  I could have run the Mk. 41s from the stage area via snake, but there's no riser (venue is a bowl), with kids sometimes running around near the stage.  Seemed less risky and less of a hassle to mount them up by the board.  The crowd at this venue is generally older/more respectful so the ambience mics worked out pretty well.

The environmental noises (which might be a siren, motorcycles, or the freight trains which pass behind the venue at least several times during the show) definitely add to the flavor, and are isolated enough that they don't really detract from the recording.

Yup, I often see audience-facing shotguns when I go to festivals, and have always wanted to try it, but couldn't until I got the DR-680. 

[yates7592]

Interested to find out how much of the rear facing pair you mixed in post? I would imagine only a small amount gives the required level of room ambience etc before the aud starts to become intrusive in the mix?

[thunderbolt]

Since this is outdoors I think I can include more.  Just taped last night, so I haven't settled on final mix.

[stevetoney]

Interesting.   So would one expect the resulting sound to be similar to what it would sound like if you recorded with omnis?

I don't know about that crowd Corbin, I know of one person that goes there every so often and he's a real dick. 

[Chuck]

I need to try this. Thanks for making the post.

[F.O.Bean]

Interesting Corbin. I'd love to hear the end result

[bryonsos]

Interesting.   So would one expect the resulting sound to be similar to what it would sound like if you recorded with omnis?

Yes! We need more omni love in these parts.

[yousef]

I've tried something similar a couple of times and been really pleased with the results despite some raised eyebrows when setting up.

FWIW I think if you have a single pair of cards to complement a board feed for anything where there is significant instrumentation missing from the house mix (eg electric guitar) I think this trumps running the mics further back in the room on a number of levels. And not least because your audience noise is primarily the people listening to the band at the front rather than the ones hanging around and chatting nearer the back.

[thunderbolt]

Here's a link to a clip in which the rearward-facing pair was mixed in at -4 dB.  EQ'd the singer's voice a bit; I found his timbre + the mic choice (I guess an SM58) too hashy.  Biggest environmental noise in this clip is the giggling baby.

https://soundcloud.com/backwoodsman-1/ts-clip/s-Ow9cW

[Gutbucket]

See! Cool huh?

I've been waiting/hoping for a while for a thread like this one..

[rubs hands together, strokes cat]
Excellent, my plan for world domination is taking hold.
Hooohaaahaaahaaaaaa!!

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Interesting that you posted this now. I was just listening to a recording I made years back where the artist used a surround sound (4 channel) setup.

The show sounded awesome there and I had seen (and recorded) them do it before so I decided to run my cards facing the stage and some omni facing the back stacks. Unfortunately I was only running 2 channels then so I had to mix them down live. It still sounded fantastic and better than when I had previously recorded them with only the cards.

Sure wish they would tour again with that set up so I could run 4 cards and maybe the omnis too and make a surround recording from it. The band was Super Furry Animals and they do some pretty cool techno jammy stuff live. Lots of swirling synths. They are on hiatus so unlikely I will see them again anytime soon.

Anyone know any other bands that currently run a surround sound PA and allow recording?

[Ultfris101]

I thought I posted this earlier but never hit Submit I guess, but at Gutbucket's recommendation I've used a single rear facing mic (wide card in this case but anything directional would probably work) recording small chamber music ensembles in a very dry room and it added nice ambience. Similar to the rear facing mic when running split omnis and center front/rear hypers/cards.

[thunderbolt]

Interesting.   So would one expect the resulting sound to be similar to what it would sound like if you recorded with omnis?

I don't know about that crowd Corbin, I know of one person that goes there every so often and he's a real dick. 

Hey, you better not come 'round 'cause it's MY temple of sound now!

All right now, been kicking around your omni comment for a couple of days:  How does a forward-facing cardioid pair in DIN and a rearward facing supercardioid pair in AB60 = omni?  I'm obviously not good with the maths...so help me understand.