Author Topic: loud concerts and a cheap mic (Read 11773 times)

petur · « **on:** May 13, 2006, 04:29:57 PM »

This is probably considered a newbie question, and given the quality/price of my mic I hope I'm not wasting anybody's time.

I'm having troubles recording a very loud rock concert.

Equipment:
- iriver h340 (with rockbox)
- skytronic 173.623 modified to use a 9V battery
- the skytronic mic is T-shaped unlike the pics that show the skytronic

The concert was really very loud, and I'm wondering what limit I've bumped into.

I prepared a short unmodified WAV that shows that the levels are fine and there's no visible clipping.
http://users.telenet.be/petur/distorted.wav

I also noticed that when getting loud, the waveform becomes assymetric, any thoughts on this? I guess I'm hitting physical limits of the mic.

OK, so I probably bought a bad mic, any guides available for good alternatives?
- must be very small
- not expensive (<100 euro if possible)

thanks a lot!
Peter

spyder9 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 13, 2006, 04:52:31 PM »

Hey Peter,

Welcome!

You probably will need a small preamp to go between the mics and the Iriver. I'm pretty sure that Iriver's internal amp can't handle heavy SPLs by itself. A preamp will help immensely. There are 2 places to go get inexpensive preamps. www.soundprofessionals.com or Church Audio. Chris Church is a member here at TS.com.

What's the specs on your mics? Cards? Omins? SPLs? Dynamic Range? Sensitivity?

petur · « **Reply #2 on:** May 13, 2006, 06:09:54 PM »

thanks for the feedback!

Chris, am I right that the CA-T2 would be great for (loud) rock concerts?

I like the fact that it's all in one piece because I mostly try to leave my gear somewhere instead of wearing it on me (and have to stand still all the time).

What are shipping costs to Europe (Belgium to be exact) - or should I email you for that?

petur · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2006, 05:18:34 AM »

Quote from: Church-Audio on May 13, 2006, 07:37:42 PM

My stereo T mic would work great but a preamp like my st-9000 this would be a good package for under $200

Ok, now convince a newbie he needs this gear

- I couldn't find any reference to the st-9000 on your site
- what will be the benefits? Better mic power? Better for loud music?

I want to use this with an iriver h340 which gives about 3.7V out.
If the preamp will help a lot I can maybe justify going over my budget, if the difference is only little....

grider · « **Reply #4 on:** May 17, 2006, 10:31:38 AM »

Quote from: petur on May 17, 2006, 05:18:34 AM

Quote from: Church-Audio on May 13, 2006, 07:37:42 PM
My stereo T mic would work great but a preamp like my st-9000 this would be a good package for under $200

Ok, now convince a newbie he needs this gear

- I couldn't find any reference to the st-9000 on your site
- what will be the benefits? Better mic power? Better for loud music?

I want to use this with an iriver h340 which gives about 3.7V out.
If the preamp will help a lot I can maybe justify going over my budget, if the difference is only little....

well, you can keep what you have and stay on budget and make acoutsically flawed/unlistentable/untradeable tapes that you will regret, or you can spend more, beyond your budget that are not flawed/listenable and perhaps even enjoyable/tradeable tapes that you will be proud of, should I go on?

grider · « **Reply #5 on:** May 17, 2006, 11:41:22 AM »

Quote from: Church-Audio on May 17, 2006, 11:17:39 AM

I hope your not talking about my mics and preamps

Quote from: grider on May 17, 2006, 10:31:38 AM
Quote from: petur on May 17, 2006, 05:18:34 AM
Quote from: Church-Audio on May 13, 2006, 07:37:42 PM
My stereo T mic would work great but a preamp like my st-9000 this would be a good package for under $200

Ok, now convince a newbie he needs this gear

- I couldn't find any reference to the st-9000 on your site
- what will be the benefits? Better mic power? Better for loud music?

I want to use this with an iriver h340 which gives about 3.7V out.
If the preamp will help a lot I can maybe justify going over my budget, if the difference is only little....

well, you can keep what you have and stay on budget and make acoutsically flawed/unlistentable/untradeable tapes that you will regret, or you can spend more, beyond your budget that are not flawed/listenable and perhaps even enjoyable/tradeable tapes that you will be proud of, should I go on?

no, talking about the merits of using any preamp as opposed to using no preamp at all, the benefits to using a preamp are too numerous to mention

mmadd29 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 19, 2006, 01:45:25 PM »

I purchased one of the st-9000's from Chris. It made a HUGE improvement in my recordings. Prior I had low levels, which needed normalization. The problem was it introduced some slight hiss. After using the amp, no more normalization, no more hiss. In fact, it showed me that I need to upgrade my Sony ECM-907 mic.

I would highly recommend Chris' products, in fact Chris you will be getting an email about some mic's in the next couple weeks. I think I know which ones I need, but want to talk spec's.

TNJazz · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2006, 01:06:04 AM »

Quote from: Church-Audio on May 19, 2006, 02:15:51 PM

If the benefits are to "numerous" to mention then what exactly do you need me to explain?

Chris Church

"no, talking about the merits of using any preamp as opposed to using no preamp at all, the benefits to using a preamp are too numerous to mention"

I don't believe grider is asking you to explain anything. I believe he's stating the benefits of using a(ny) preamp are "too numerous to mention". If anyone asked you to explain anything, it was someone else on this thread.

petur · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2006, 08:30:03 AM »

Well I'm sure I'll notice the difference myself as I've ordered mics+preamp.
Can't wait to try them out

btw, thanks again for the service Chris, looking forward to use your gear...

petur · « **Reply #9 on:** June 01, 2006, 05:26:26 AM »

Quote from: petur on May 20, 2006, 08:30:03 AM

Well I'm sure I'll notice the difference myself as I've ordered mics+preamp.
Can't wait to try them out

mics have arrived

Only tried them briefly, and they do sound much better. A pitty the next concert is in 4 weeks.

Microbe · « **Reply #10 on:** June 01, 2006, 07:32:24 AM »

Quote from: petur on June 01, 2006, 05:26:26 AM

Quote from: petur on May 20, 2006, 08:30:03 AM
Well I'm sure I'll notice the difference myself as I've ordered mics+preamp.
Can't wait to try them out

mics have arrived

Only tried them briefly, and they do sound much better. A pitty the next concert is in 4 weeks.

Petur,

I'd be curious how you make out. I have Chris's mics and running rockbox on an H120. Using the preamp, I only set the gain on the Iriver to +4 max gain for Rock and +9 max gain for acoustic. I'm sure you'll like the mics, I do!

JEFan

Church-Audio · « **Reply #11 on:** June 01, 2006, 12:17:20 PM »

Thanks for the Kind words I hope you make some great recordings with your new mics.

Chris Church

Quote from: JEFan on June 01, 2006, 07:32:24 AM

Quote from: petur on June 01, 2006, 05:26:26 AM
Quote from: petur on May 20, 2006, 08:30:03 AM
Well I'm sure I'll notice the difference myself as I've ordered mics+preamp.
Can't wait to try them out

mics have arrived

Only tried them briefly, and they do sound much better. A pitty the next concert is in 4 weeks.

Petur,

I'd be curious how you make out. I have Chris's mics and running rockbox on an H120. Using the preamp, I only set the gain on the Iriver to +4 max gain for Rock and +9 max gain for acoustic. I'm sure you'll like the mics, I do!

JEFan

petur · « **Reply #12 on:** June 24, 2006, 06:13:29 PM »

Well the first gig I just recorded was a bit of a disappointment

The gig was pretty loud and I had the preamp switch set to -27dB,
AGC (safety mode) turned the gain down to -4db (YUCK!).
(This is on an iriver h340 with rockbox btw....)

Guess what: the drums and bass parts are distorted! Looking at the waveform I see no clipping but either the output of the preamp was too high or the mics/preamp can't handle the soundpressure.

So I don't know what to do... I was expecting *a lot* from this kit

to end with a positive note, the recording otherwise sounds quite good

edit: I've put a small part of it online (zipped wav) for your hearing (dis)pleasure: http://users.pandora.be/mieke-en-peter/distortion.zip

Sanjay · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2006, 06:33:40 PM »

On your recorder were you running line in or mic in? If you were running mic in then there could be some reason for the problems. After listening to your recording, yes there is a little distortion, that could have been in the PA, your mic config, or some other factor. However it sound very good none the less and its a very listenable tape. If I were you i'd be more mad about the clapper next to you! Try it again at another concert and see what happens, the distortion is not that bad in my opinion, and it just sounds muffled which could be for many reasons.

Just a word of advice, there is no catch all. My stealth rig cost me about $3,000 and I still get distortion at times, or a bad recording. there is no perfect rig that you'll find which makes a perfect tape all the time, Mr. Church can't make one, DPA can't, Schoeps can't. However what you bought from Chris will help you get much better recordings.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2006, 08:03:04 PM »

Hi what preamp did you get the st-20 or the st-9000 preamp? let me know the st-20 does not have the headroom that the st-9000 has ( trade off for low price) but the st-9000 preamp should handle all the way to 0 db input level with no distortion what so ever.
if its the preamp I will take the old one back and sell you a new st-9000 at my cost + return shipping I do not want any unhappy customers. But like Sanjay said there is no such thing as a mic/preamp that does not distort. But that does not mean I will leave you high and dry if this gear is not doing what you need it too.

Chris Church

Quote from: petur on June 24, 2006, 06:13:29 PM

Well the first gig I just recorded was a bit of a disappointment

The gig was pretty loud and I had the preamp switch set to -27dB,
AGC (safety mode) turned the gain down to -4db (YUCK!).
(This is on an iriver h340 with rockbox btw....)

Guess what: the drums and bass parts are distorted! Looking at the waveform I see no clipping but either the output of the preamp was too high or the mics/preamp can't handle the soundpressure.

So I don't know what to do... I was expecting *a lot* from this kit

to end with a positive note, the recording otherwise sounds quite good

edit: I've put a small part of it online (zipped wav) for your hearing (dis)pleasure: http://users.pandora.be/mieke-en-peter/distortion.zip

Microbe · « **Reply #15 on:** June 24, 2006, 09:00:36 PM »

Petur,

I'm using the Church cardiod mics and ST-9000 pre-amp. I have my recording levels set as -2db to +2db on the Iriver and 0db on the preamp with the output level set at full. I've recorded a rock concert at 5 ft. from the PA. No distortion. I also do not use AGC on the Iriver, my levels are slightly lower than yours, when I compare raw Wave forms. Are you sure it's not the AGC causing your problems? While recording are you trying to get your levels as high as possible and letting AGC catch the mistakes? I tested the AGC and just didn't like it because the actual internal settings weren't explained clearly. Just food for thought

Church-Audio · « **Reply #16 on:** June 24, 2006, 11:54:13 PM »

Are you using AGC? If so turn it off, 99% of the time the problem with the distortion is Automatic gain control. That system is an old carry over from Sony's MD days, and is designed for recording speeches not music. Speech has a much more predictable pattern and thus it can be anticipated by AGC systems. Music has too much of a dynamic range for any Automatic gain control chip to ever be able to calculate. It also eliminates an unnecessary source of noise in your recordings because automatic gain control will always ramp up quiet passages and ruin the dynamics of any recording and decrease your signal to noise ratio.

Quote from: petur on June 24, 2006, 06:13:29 PM

Well the first gig I just recorded was a bit of a disappointment

The gig was pretty loud and I had the preamp switch set to -27dB,
AGC (safety mode) turned the gain down to -4db (YUCK!).
(This is on an iriver h340 with rockbox btw....)

Guess what: the drums and bass parts are distorted! Looking at the waveform I see no clipping but either the output of the preamp was too high or the mics/preamp can't handle the soundpressure.

So I don't know what to do... I was expecting *a lot* from this kit

to end with a positive note, the recording otherwise sounds quite good

edit: I've put a small part of it online (zipped wav) for your hearing (dis)pleasure: http://users.pandora.be/mieke-en-peter/distortion.zip

petur · « **Reply #17 on:** June 25, 2006, 04:31:46 AM »

Yes, I have AGC enabled as software algoritm in my rockbox build, I use it in a safety mode, that is: the only thing it does is turn the gain down if there's clipping risk. I had started it on 0dB and it had changed it to -4dB by the end of the show. It does not turn up gain again.

I haven't checked the AGC code but I think it decreases gain if the signal goes above -3dB for additional safety.

I had my gear attached to the fence in front of the stage (about 2 meters from the stage). I think spl was even worse further back because the PA was left/right of the stage and only pointing to the back. Maybe I should have a talk with the sound engineer about turning the volume down as I know the band pretty well...

The mics/preamp I got was:

STEREO MICROPHONE PREAMP ST-20A
B-99M PROFESSIONAL BINURAL MICROPHONES

Chris, you can PM me regarding trading the pre-amp. Does the other pre-amp have bass rolloff? Because the mics pic up such a wide range I now consider it usefull (it was never an issue with my old cheap mics because they didn't go that low)

A last remark: as the level was pretty high on the iriver input, I wonder if the iriver input wasn't overloaded. I'll try to check that some way.

edit: tried to overload the iriver input but it was hard to find a source with levels high enough. I only saw clipping, not what I saw on my recording....

Microbe · « **Reply #18 on:** June 25, 2006, 07:30:50 AM »

It could very well be the SPLs overcoming the mics then. I'm not sure what the your country's standards are on concert db levels. But it's hard to say exactly what the noise is, the sound could also be stuff shaking around on stage. I know when I'm that close I pick up the bass rattling around the drum heads. I don't have Chris' Omini's so It's hard for me to comment, maybe I'll pick up a pair to experiment necause I don't have that problem with his cards.

petur · « **Reply #19 on:** June 25, 2006, 02:31:26 PM »

Well I'm pretty sure neither me or my wife heard the distortion (during the performance) that's in the recording.
I remember my ears hurting a little from the guitar part but listening to the recording completely, I am convinced the bass and bassdrum are overdriving something.

I'm going for another pre-amp, I just hope it won't turn out that the mics get overloaded $:-\$

Microbe · « **Reply #20 on:** June 25, 2006, 04:57:50 PM »

Petur,

Good luck! I'm hoping it's not the mics, but just remember your omnis will pick up more bass than my cardiods will. Which may help aleviate your problem. Chris will know best though. I'm crossing my fingers for you.

petur · « **Reply #21 on:** June 26, 2006, 07:29:14 AM »

one more question:

As I'm going for the st-9100 of Chris, I'm wondering about its high-pass filter:

12db per octave @80Hz

Will this not take away too much of the bass?
What's the advantage <---> not use it and postprocessing?

And does anybody (Chris?) know what the max spl is the B-99M PROFESSIONAL BINURAL MICROPHONES can handle.

Microbe · « **Reply #22 on:** June 26, 2006, 09:37:59 AM »

Here's a link to a thread where people discuss some of the issues of Bass rolloff vs post production.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=66326.0

I don't have any experience with the ST-9100 so I can't comment on it's rolloff

Church-Audio · « **Reply #23 on:** June 26, 2006, 10:50:18 AM »

Hi you do not need to use the high pass filter but its there. I have designed it so that it will not effect freq's above 110hz so you do not lose the warmth of your recordings. I think its always best to try settings on the opening band first and see how things go. I think that its better to have a clean recording with less bass that can be easly bumped up in post. The thing to remember about bass roll off is this using it reduces bass of course but the bass is still being recorded its just bumped down. What I am saying is the bass is still on tape its just -12db down its easy to "undo" a bass roll off at 12db per octave just and a bass boost and put it all back. I have done it many times. what happens is with the high pass filter on you can get hotter levels to tape ( just an expression) we all know no one uses tape any more. The hotter your levels are to tape the nicer your recording will sound but if there is to much bass in your recording this eats up your headroom and causes you to set levels too low this makes for a bad recording IMO. Good luck and let me know if there is anything I can help you with
Remember the bass roll off can be switched on or off it does not have to be used.

Chris Church

Quote from: petur on June 26, 2006, 07:29:14 AM

one more question:

As I'm going for the st-9100 of Chris, I'm wondering about its high-pass filter:

12db per octave @80Hz

Will this not take away too much of the bass?
What's the advantage <---> not use it and postprocessing?

And does anybody (Chris?) know what the max spl is the B-99M PROFESSIONAL BINURAL MICROPHONES can handle.

petur · « **Reply #24 on:** July 07, 2006, 07:03:25 PM »

having some gigs coming up but not the new mic amp, I decided to do some experimenting.

I've connected the mics of Chris directly to the iriver h340. Of course this means they'll only get 3.7V power.

The amazing thing is that the distortion sounds exactly the same as with the mic amp. The iriver was set fixed at 0dB gain. A small WAV file is here: http://users.telenet.be/petur/distorted2.wav

On my way to the gig I rememberd I still have a skytronic battery box around which I modified to take 9V, so I'll try that sunday.

BUT... I get the feeling the distortion is coming from overloaded mics

Microbe · « **Reply #25 on:** July 07, 2006, 08:37:53 PM »

Hi Petur,

You're still picking up a lot of bass. When you get the new preamp with bass rolloff you should notice a difference. I have a sample posted in the gear loan section under church cardioids. The cardiods cut out some of the bass by their very nature (not as much reflection coming back). This sample was recorded on a H120 with st-9000 pre-amp 3ft from the stage and PA stack. Check the last page in the thread:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=61141.new#new

petur · « **Reply #26 on:** July 08, 2006, 05:15:39 AM »

Quote from: JEFan on July 07, 2006, 08:37:53 PM

You're still picking up a lot of bass. When you get the new preamp with bass rolloff you should notice a difference. I have a sample posted in the gear loan section under church cardioids. The cardiods cut out some of the bass by their very nature (not as much reflection coming back). This sample was recorded on a H120 with st-9000 pre-amp 3ft from the stage and PA stack. Check the last page in the thread:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=61141.new#new

Yes the concerts I'm taping are very bass heavy, much more than the sample you posted (which I find lacks a bit of bass). I could do with picking up less bass, but my fear right now is that if the mics get overloaded by the bass, the roll-off filter won't help that much. The st-9100 will certainly help a bit to lower the bass and make the signal less hot on my iriver. But it won't help if the mics are distorting

So I'm very much thinking if I should get other mics too. And I'd better decide on that *before* Chrish ships the pre-amp. The sad part is I'm missing some good recordings. The one last night was one of the best the band did. At least I was there to enjoy it

Microbe · « **Reply #27 on:** July 08, 2006, 08:18:50 AM »

Petur,

I record pretty close to the stage and PA, but I tend to go more towards the guitar side of the stage. This is to help me avoid the high bass SPL level. Is it possible you can move your position to a better balanced spot? I've been looking at mics from microphone madness because they have a higher SPL rating. They have a lower bass frequency response though. So there's always a tradeoff somewhere.

petur · « **Reply #28 on:** July 08, 2006, 08:39:22 AM »

been there, tried that.... there's just too much bass

petur · « **Reply #29 on:** July 09, 2006, 11:05:06 AM »

AAAAAARRRGGGGHHHH

right, that was concert number 4 completely ruined by distortion, it wasn't even very loud.

This time I tried the B-99M PROFESSIONAL BINURAL MICROPHONES of Chris with a 9V battery box directly into the iriver. Gain set at 10 and still had a reasonable margin.

I don't know what to try next, but I have a *very* strong feeling th st-9100 pre-amp won' t solve (all) my problems.

So I'm now open to suggestions for other mics.
Remember I want to tape bass heavy rock concerts, the mics should be able to handle quite a few spl.

I'm now at almost 3x my planned budget and *very* dissapointed. My next gigs will be taped with a $20 mic that sound awfull but at least doesn't distort

sample: http://users.telenet.be/petur/distorted3.wav

more thoughts: have I made a mistake somewhere along the thinking process? Can it be that the mics don't work well with the cheap skytronic power box (normally operates on 1.5V but modified by me to take a 9V battery).

petur · « **Reply #30 on:** July 10, 2006, 04:48:36 AM »

JEFan, are these the cardoids you're talking about? (sorry for the huge url)

http://cgi.ebay.ca/STEREO-CARDIOID-MICROPHONE-4-MINIDISC-DAT-MP3-EDIROL_W0QQitemZ5861925266QQihZ008QQcategoryZ3281QQcmdZViewItem

Microbe · « **Reply #31 on:** July 10, 2006, 07:09:14 AM »

Yep,

those are the ones I'm currently using. So far no problems with SPLs. I'm trying them at an outdoor show this week, not sure how close I'll get to the stage and PA. I'll let you know how that works out if you want.

petur · « **Reply #32 on:** July 10, 2006, 07:29:42 AM »

The other sample you gave me already gave me some trust in the cardoids,
I guess I'll have to take the jump and order them.

It's hard to compare concerts and sound levels...

thanks for helping,
Peter

Microbe · « **Reply #33 on:** July 10, 2006, 08:40:15 AM »

Petur,

Because I don't know the levels you are dealing with, is it possible someone at the show can measure the DB's at the show? Even the church cardiods wont help if the SPL's are too high. Check some of the other thread related to high bass content, they may be of more help.

petur · « **Reply #34 on:** August 04, 2006, 06:30:16 PM »

Just got back from taping (part) of the performance of Therapy? with my new church-audio st-9100 + cardoids

The sound was pretty loud (could feel the bass all over my body). But no distortion!

Messed around during some songs to find good levels, chose some very safe settings.
I discovered that this setup has quite a bit of headroom level-wise.

I ran without the bass roll-off and the amount of bass is just perfect.

Sound quality is hard to judge as the show's PA sound was pretty lousy

But it sounds pretty good.

I also found out I have a crackling contact between st9100 and iriver, but it looks to be oxidation on the connector (phew).

thanks all for helping, first real test will be next weekend

whatboutbob · « **Reply #35 on:** August 04, 2006, 09:10:48 PM »

'ooray! :-)

Church-Audio · « **Reply #36 on:** August 05, 2006, 12:38:15 AM »

If you have a problem with out preamp send it back and we will replace it with a new one *the connectors on the preamp should be pretty good* they are switchcraft and cost about 10x more then the standard pcb mount jack.

Quote from: petur on August 04, 2006, 06:30:16 PM

Just got back from taping (part) of the performance of Therapy? with my new church-audio st-9100 + cardoids

The sound was pretty loud (could feel the bass all over my body). But no distortion!

Messed around during some songs to find good levels, chose some very safe settings.
I discovered that this setup has quite a bit of headroom level-wise.

I ran without the bass roll-off and the amount of bass is just perfect.

Sound quality is hard to judge as the show's PA sound was pretty lousy But it sounds pretty good.

I also found out I have a crackling contact between st9100 and iriver, but it looks to be oxidation on the connector (phew).

thanks all for helping, first real test will be next weekend

petur · « **Reply #37 on:** August 05, 2006, 05:03:17 PM »

Nothing wrong with the gear chris, I cleaned the plugs of the cable between st9100 and iriver and all is well. Must have gotten dirty.

I'm also going to enable the bass rolloff as there is still very much bass in the recording.

Because of the lousy PA it's hard to judge the recording quality and won't post a sample of that

More results and maybe a short sample next week. Still pondering about a good way to attach the mics to my bag and have a good mic placement...

Church-Audio · « **Reply #38 on:** August 05, 2006, 05:05:36 PM »

Wear a hat and get the mics as high up as you can or get fake glasses if you do not wear any and clip them to the glasses.

Quote from: petur on August 05, 2006, 05:03:17 PM

Nothing wrong with the gear chris, I cleaned the plugs of the cable between st9100 and iriver and all is well. Must have gotten dirty.

I'm also going to enable the bass rolloff as there is still very much bass in the recording.

Because of the lousy PA it's hard to judge the recording quality and won't post a sample of that

More results and maybe a short sample next week. Still pondering about a good way to attach the mics to my bag and have a good mic placement...

petur · « **Reply #39 on:** August 13, 2006, 06:05:12 PM »

First results are in...

This setup is doing great. The concert had less bass than usual but still: the amount of headroom I get with this setup is amazing.

I'm still troubled with mic mounting. I don't want to stick them to my head as I'm bound to move that a lot during the concert

I attached them to my bag and first attached that to the fence in front of the stage. I had to remove them there as somebody was standing there putting his hands and arms on them

So I put them on my body.

The amount of quality difference between first song and rest was amazing. It's clear to me now that you need line of sight with the source of the audio or you'll lose a lot of highs.

Anyway, +T for you and your great service Chris. I think I'll keep the omni's as they're a lot more sensitive, and I'm going to sell the low-end pre-amp some day....

note to self: change topic of this thread to 'loud concerts an not-so-cheap mic'

petur · « **Reply #40 on:** August 20, 2006, 06:26:55 PM »

second and third results

Standing 1 meter from the PA stack and one meter to the side of it was too much to ask from the mics. Somehow the beginning of the recording is ok but near the end the PA seemed to get louder - maybe I moved a bit towards it or the sound guy turned up the volume a bit.
At least I recognise the sound of overloaded mics. Good to know the limits of your gear. Was using the high-pass filter, gain know was pointing towards the blue led and iriver gain at +10dB, still with a safe margin. So obviously the preamp/iriver combo has way more headroom than the cardoids can handle.

Anyway, the recordings sound great (except for the distorted part), don't think I'll be post-processing them except for gain.

aberg · « **Reply #41 on:** August 20, 2006, 10:40:13 PM »

Quote from: petur on August 20, 2006, 06:26:55 PM

second and third results

Standing 1 meter from the PA stack and one meter to the side of it was too much to ask from the mics. Somehow the beginning of the recording is ok but near the end the PA seemed to get louder - maybe I moved a bit towards it or the sound guy turned up the volume a bit.
At least I recognise the sound of overloaded mics. Good to know the limits of your gear. Was using the high-pass filter, gain know was pointing towards the blue led and iriver gain at +10dB, still with a safe margin. So obviously the preamp/iriver combo has way more headroom than the cardoids can handle.

Anyway, the recordings sound great (except for the distorted part), don't think I'll be post-processing them except for gain.

You really shouldn't stand 1 metre from the PA stack... not only for your recording, but for your ears!!

Church-Audio · « **Reply #42 on:** August 21, 2006, 01:31:24 AM »

Hi any mic will distort, I think it was most likly from the mic diaphram hitting the backplate on the mic. The wind generated from the PA at that range is very intense. This is something that will not happen at 6-10 feet from the PA, there are very few mics that can be placed that close to a real concert P.A and live to tell the tail. I hope you like the mics.

Chris Church

Quote from: petur on August 20, 2006, 06:26:55 PM

second and third results

Standing 1 meter from the PA stack and one meter to the side of it was too much to ask from the mics. Somehow the beginning of the recording is ok but near the end the PA seemed to get louder - maybe I moved a bit towards it or the sound guy turned up the volume a bit.
At least I recognise the sound of overloaded mics. Good to know the limits of your gear. Was using the high-pass filter, gain know was pointing towards the blue led and iriver gain at +10dB, still with a safe margin. So obviously the preamp/iriver combo has way more headroom than the cardoids can handle.

Anyway, the recordings sound great (except for the distorted part), don't think I'll be post-processing them except for gain.

petur · « **Reply #43 on:** August 21, 2006, 03:26:27 AM »

Quote from: Church-Audio on August 21, 2006, 01:31:24 AM

Hi any mic will distort, I think it was most likly from the mic diaphram hitting the backplate on the mic. The wind generated from the PA at that range is very intense. This is something that will not happen at 6-10 feet from the PA, there are very few mics that can be placed that close to a real concert P.A and live to tell the tail. I hope you like the mics.

Yes, I understand that completely. Hitting the limit means I have now learned what not to do

This was not me saying anything bad about your mics, more about me being silly. I still have to check the waveforms, I bet it's just one channel that was distorted as I had them in a 90 degrees angle pointing forward, so one mic was pointing at the PA, the other at the stage. Silly me indeed.

The other show I taped that night sounded best. I put my gear right behind the stage monitor of vocals/guitar (so on the crowd side) and I got some amazing clarity, each instrument clearly defined and the drums are particulary clear. The bass roll-off is maybe a bit too much but nothing that can't be corrected afterwards.

So yes, I'm happy with the mics and amp.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #44 on:** August 21, 2006, 12:35:17 PM »

Cool, I think you will find that the bass rolll off is not really needed, In most cases you can just take out the extra in post editing. I am glad your happy, my comments were not so much directed at you as just a general fact about condenser mics. Thanks for your purchase.

Chris Church

Quote from: petur on August 21, 2006, 03:26:27 AM

Quote from: Church-Audio on August 21, 2006, 01:31:24 AM
Hi any mic will distort, I think it was most likly from the mic diaphram hitting the backplate on the mic. The wind generated from the PA at that range is very intense. This is something that will not happen at 6-10 feet from the PA, there are very few mics that can be placed that close to a real concert P.A and live to tell the tail. I hope you like the mics.

Yes, I understand that completely. Hitting the limit means I have now learned what not to do This was not me saying anything bad about your mics, more about me being silly. I still have to check the waveforms, I bet it's just one channel that was distorted as I had them in a 90 degrees angle pointing forward, so one mic was pointing at the PA, the other at the stage. Silly me indeed.

The other show I taped that night sounded best. I put my gear right behind the stage monitor of vocals/guitar (so on the crowd side) and I got some amazing clarity, each instrument clearly defined and the drums are particulary clear. The bass roll-off is maybe a bit too much but nothing that can't be corrected afterwards.

So yes, I'm happy with the mics and amp.

T-90 · « **Reply #45 on:** August 21, 2006, 02:46:45 PM »

Quote from: petur on August 04, 2006, 06:30:16 PM

Just got back from taping (part) of the performance of Therapy? with my new church-audio st-9100 + cardoids

The sound was pretty loud (could feel the bass all over my body). But no distortion!

Messed around during some songs to find good levels, chose some very safe settings.
I discovered that this setup has quite a bit of headroom level-wise.

I ran without the bass roll-off and the amount of bass is just perfect.

Sound quality is hard to judge as the show's PA sound was pretty lousy But it sounds pretty good.

I also found out I have a crackling contact between st9100 and iriver, but it looks to be oxidation on the connector (phew).

thanks all for helping, first real test will be next weekend

i ran these mics>st-9100>jb3 along with my open rig spc4's>ps2/ad20>jb3 last weekend....the c4's were ran x/y and the church audio mics were ran a/b with no bass roll off.....the mics were about 8' in the air about 25' from the stage.....the results made me very happy with the church audio setup....i ALMOST had to make sure that the clip i was working with was in fact from the church audio mics and not my c4's.....and talk about headroom, i had the st-9100 all the way at +20db and had the jb3 maxed at +12db for a portion of the show and although on spectrum it looks like almost constant brickwall/clipping, there was very little distortion.....dont mean to beat a dead horse here, but these mics are a steal at the price.....now if i could just get my windscreens in the mail

Church-Audio · « **Reply #46 on:** August 21, 2006, 02:57:42 PM »

Just for that I am sending you a free pair of windscreens

Quote from: T-90 on August 21, 2006, 02:46:45 PM

Quote from: petur on August 04, 2006, 06:30:16 PM
Just got back from taping (part) of the performance of Therapy? with my new church-audio st-9100 + cardoids

The sound was pretty loud (could feel the bass all over my body). But no distortion!

Messed around during some songs to find good levels, chose some very safe settings.
I discovered that this setup has quite a bit of headroom level-wise.

I ran without the bass roll-off and the amount of bass is just perfect.

Sound quality is hard to judge as the show's PA sound was pretty lousy But it sounds pretty good.

I also found out I have a crackling contact between st9100 and iriver, but it looks to be oxidation on the connector (phew).

thanks all for helping, first real test will be next weekend

i ran these mics>st-9100>jb3 along with my open rig spc4's>ps2/ad20>jb3 last weekend....the c4's were ran x/y and the church audio mics were ran a/b with no bass roll off.....the mics were about 8' in the air about 25' from the stage.....the results made me very happy with the church audio setup....i ALMOST had to make sure that the clip i was working with was in fact from the church audio mics and not my c4's.....and talk about headroom, i had the st-9100 all the way at +20db and had the jb3 maxed at +12db for a portion of the show and although on spectrum it looks like almost constant brickwall/clipping, there was very little distortion.....dont mean to beat a dead horse here, but these mics are a steal at the price.....now if i could just get my windscreens in the mail

T-90 · « **Reply #47 on:** August 21, 2006, 06:09:19 PM »

Quote from: Church-Audio on August 21, 2006, 02:57:42 PM

Just for that I am sending you a free pair of windscreens

thank you kind sir....i was thinking the fine mail carriers in canada had a beef with me

the screens will complete the package and again i cant be happier with the church audio products i own guys