Topic: Small Stealth Preamp?

[TideBleach]

I was wondering if anyone could help point me in the right direction to find a Small Stealthable Preamp that would also power my mics with 9volts.

[corsair]

Consider the Reactive sounds spa-2 or boost box...
I own one and am particularly happy with it.
However, they're under some kinda reconstruction now.
Another one would be the one by SP. But I chose
the Reactive Sounds, because their clipping LED is real
useful.

[M]

Chris Church hooked me up with a custom preamp.  It is a similar idea to the reactive sounds one except mine has 3-wire power.

[pfife]

Chris Church hooked me up with a custom preamp.  It is a similar idea to the reactive sounds one except mine has 3-wire power.

I'd try this too. 

[bdasilva]

Chris makes a small, easy to power, quiet pre for a damn reasonable price.




Chris Church hooked me up with a custom preamp.  It is a similar idea to the reactive sounds one except mine has 3-wire power.

[cpatch]

Here's Chris' web site (also currently undergoing reconstruction but follow the link to his eBay store):

http://church-audio.ca

Craig

[SkttrWave]

Would using such a church audio preamp instead of my battery box, significantly improve my current rig (see signature)?

[Krispy D]

I just saw a deneke ad20 on ebay...

[M]

Would using such a church audio preamp instead of my battery box, significantly improve my current rig (see signature)?

It should.  Here is what mine has.

-It provides 3-wire power that has lower distortion than 2-wire that the common batt box uses. 

-It provides 0db to (not either or) 20db of gain selectable by a knob.  I saw that the 3-wire boxes had a lower volume output than the 2-wire ones so the pre will come in handy.   He said he used a better opamp than in his oth

-I also have a selectable hpf at 80hz. 

-A led to let you know that it is on.


I would provide a rewiew/samples but this is a fairly new piece of gear for me.  I was supposed to have my first test in the field on Friday but the concert got cancelled.  From all the testing I did at home it worked great.  My next concert is in 2 weeks I will provide a review then.


If you have any questions you should pm Chris.  He can give you better details and the full specs.

[divamum]

-It provides 0db to (not either or) 20db of gain selectable by a knob.  

Just for the sake of accuracy, so does the Reactive Boostbox (it's 0-35 I believe). The SP pre is the one with fixed gain settings, which is actually why it didn't work out for me and I had to look elsewhere and thus wound up with the REactive. 

Minidisco used to stock the REactive; don't know if it's still in production or not, but it's worked out well for me. That said, nice to know there's another option in the Church product! I searched high and low this time last year and the Reactive was the only one I could find in my price range, so good to know there's some other choices too.

[corsair]

-It provides 0db to (not either or) 20db of gain selectable by a knob.   

Just for the sake of accuracy, so does the Reactive Boostbox (it's 0-35 I believe). The SP pre is the one with fixed gain settings, which is actually why it didn't work out for me and I had to look elsewhere and thus wound up with the REactive. 

Minidisco used to stock the REactive; don't know if it's still in production or not, but it's worked out well for me. That said, nice to know there's another option in the Church product! I searched high and low this time last year and the Reactive was the only one I could find in my price range, so good to know there's some other choices too.

Just to add on, I think Reactive's beauty is also in the clipping led.... Not sure if the
Church Audio has  one.... but that led is invaluable in a stealth situation.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

We do not use clip lights insted we make a preamp that you would have to run over with a truck before it clip's. Our Sennhieser model (3 wire) has a gain control from 00- db or off to +20 db with a distortion of 0.05% we don't think the clip light on a external preamp tells you anything, because number one the bullistics of the clip light or the way it works, should have a delayed off, so that you can see that it was on in the first place. If your preamp puts out 30 db of gain and you are at clipping I am pretty dam sure your input on your md or hd based recorder that is expecting -20 to -10 db is very much deep into overload. I have measured the  product you mentioned and found that the clip light comes on way to early to be of any use. But hey it's a good gimick.  I think that real preamps that have phantom power and 70 db of gain should have a VU meter with a clip light, but thats not going to fit into your pocket. We could put a lame clip light in our product but to be honest we would rather make it a sell for a little less $$$$ then bullshit people into thinking that this little clip light will be the answer to all your distortion problems.
We only put in what you need to get the job done and insted of wasting money on extra doodad's that do nothing except add to what I call the "KNOB" factor we give you a clean wide band low self noise very low distortion preamp at a price pretty much anyone can pay for with out selling one of the kids. And we do it with the best parts you can buy. We use switchcraft jacks we use 1% metal film resistors and we hand match all of our film caps so they are with in .05% of each other with our advanced LCR meter. Then when we are done all that I have a program called WINAUDIOMLS every preamp is now tested with this program for noise floor, distortion, frequencey response, and then all of these measurements are compaired with a known good sample to make sure they are with in 1% of each other the levels from left to right are with in 0.1db of each other. All this for $220.00 for a 3 wire preamp that is unmatched in its price range.
 

Chris Church

-It provides 0db to (not either or) 20db of gain selectable by a knob.   

Just for the sake of accuracy, so does the Reactive Boostbox (it's 0-35 I believe). The SP pre is the one with fixed gain settings, which is actually why it didn't work out for me and I had to look elsewhere and thus wound up with the REactive. 

Minidisco used to stock the REactive; don't know if it's still in production or not, but it's worked out well for me. That said, nice to know there's another option in the Church product! I searched high and low this time last year and the Reactive was the only one I could find in my price range, so good to know there's some other choices too.

Just to add on, I think Reactive's beauty is also in the clipping led.... Not sure if the
Church Audio has  one.... but that led is invaluable in a stealth situation.

[corsair]

Dude, before U blow off other people's products as lame or gimmicky... I can tell you from practical experience while
taping stealth, that clip led is useful. People who have run SBM-1 into the portable DATs can tell you
how invaluable it is as well...when U can just peer into ur pocket and adjust the gain and not have to look
at the levels on ur recorder..

Yes, when it flashes, it does not clip yet. But the idea to use the clip led is such that it flashes occassionally..
I've taped with it, and I've got good levels using this feature. Also, instead of typing tons of technical
mumbo jumbo into one block of text, consider using paragraphs.

We do not use clip lights insted we make a preamp that you would have to run over with a truck before it clip's. Our Sennhieser model (3 wire) has a gain control from 00- db or off to +20 db with a distortion of 0.05% we don't think the clip light on a external preamp tells you anything, because number one the bullistics of the clip light or the way it works, should have a delayed off, so that you can see that it was on in the first place. If your preamp puts out 30 db of gain and you are at clipping I am pretty dam sure your input on your md or hd based recorder that is expecting -20 to -10 db is very much deep into overload. I have measured the  product you mentioned and found that the clip light comes on way to early to be of any use. But hey it's a good gimick.  I think that real preamps that have phantom power and 70 db of gain should have a VU meter with a clip light, but thats not going to fit into your pocket. We could put a lame clip light in our product but to be honest we would rather make it a sell for a little less $$$$ then bullshit people into thinking that this little clip light will be the answer to all your distortion problems.
We only put in what you need to get the job done and insted of wasting money on extra doodad's that do nothing except add to what I call the "KNOB" factor we give you a clean wide band low self noise very low distortion preamp at a price pretty much anyone can pay for with out selling one of the kids. And we do it with the best parts you can buy. We use switchcraft jacks we use 1% metal film resistors and we hand match all of our film caps so they are with in .05% of each other with our advanced LCR meter. Then when we are done all that I have a program called WINAUDIOMLS every preamp is now tested with this program for noise floor, distortion, frequencey response, and then all of these measurements are compaired with a known good sample to make sure they are with in 1% of each other the levels from left to right are with in 0.1db of each other. All this for $220.00 for a 3 wire preamp that is unmatched in its price range.
 

Chris Church

-It provides 0db to (not either or) 20db of gain selectable by a knob.   

Just for the sake of accuracy, so does the Reactive Boostbox (it's 0-35 I believe). The SP pre is the one with fixed gain settings, which is actually why it didn't work out for me and I had to look elsewhere and thus wound up with the REactive. 

Minidisco used to stock the REactive; don't know if it's still in production or not, but it's worked out well for me. That said, nice to know there's another option in the Church product! I searched high and low this time last year and the Reactive was the only one I could find in my price range, so good to know there's some other choices too.

Just to add on, I think Reactive's beauty is also in the clipping led.... Not sure if the
Church Audio has  one.... but that led is invaluable in a stealth situation.

[pmonk66]

Agreed - I love how you can check your PMD660 that's tucked in your bag in a dark concert hall and see the recording volumes!

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Think of this ok music is dynamic I am a live front of house sound engineer. I mix some songs at 85 db some rockin tunes I may mix as loud as 115db in the right venue, with the right artist. You have to look at your recorders level control and set it so there is atleast 10 db of head room. A clip light that lights up 2 to 3 db and stays on for one second is not going to help. You need a VU METER NOT A CLIP LIGHT. end of argument it amazes me how some people talk to me like I dont know how to set a %$#@ level, it's what I do for a living, when I am not selling my little mics and preamps. I know what the hell I am talking about. It's one thing to record a show its just a tad bit more complicated to mix it. In the end who do you trust the guy that tapes a few shows or the guy that mixes them for a living?
I don't mean to be offensive but for christ sakes listen to your argument what does a clip light tell you? when the mix is always changing you need to watch a vu meter because by the time the stupid clip light comes on you already have distortion. And chances are your already overloading the recorders input? so why not just watch the $@@@@@ level on the recorder? that is the best way to maximiize the signal to noise ratio with my preamps. Because I take all the stupid shit you dont need and give you what you do need. I have used everything from Neve to Midas to API the best preamps in the world and at the end, I use my ears and a VU meter to tell me where my levels are at not a clip light that comes on way to early in most cases to be usefull. And if you use the argument that you can some how calibrate the clip light so it corrisponds with your vu on your recorder its not true. Yes when the clip light comes on you may be close to clipping but are you really? or is this just an idiot light? I love good gear and good design. But if the clip light is not accurate AND MOST OF THEM ARE NOT. then hey whats the point lets just take a peek at the recorder if you are in doubt, about levels. And my rule of thumb for your recorders input also applies to the mic input of the preamp to avoid distortion you need atleast 10db of headroom for most concerts and I would argue thats not enough some times. So if a clip light is anywhere from 2 db to 10 db before real distortion what does it tell you?


Chris Church
ps i am not having a good day so I am just a tad bit bitchy sorry.



Chris Church

I agree that clip lights rule.

Nothing posted in that sea of text has refuted the usefulness of clip lights while stealthing.  If I am recording into a jb3, I am not pulling that huge thing out of my pocket/shirt/wherever during most stealth shows to try and read those tiny meters.. On the other hand, I can have a pre (or microtrack) in my shirt pocket with the clip LED facing my chest and all I need to do is push the pocket open a bit and glance out of the corner of my eye for the flashing..

It was suggested that the MD or hard disc recorder will overload if the clip light is lit. That may be but it is trivial to work around.  You advance the gain until the light indicates clipping and then back off the gain whatever amount is necessary (from previous testing) to get to the point that is safe with your gear and provides the appropriate safety margin for the circumstances.

[corsair]

My point is... U missed the target market. While U might like to think ur products are meant
for production mixing or even for open tapers, most of the folks who will ever buy ur preamps
are doing it for stealth taping....

And for stealth taping applications, the tapers are not aiming for the best mix, but the possible
best mix W/O getting caught.

Think of this ok music is dynamic I am a live front of house sound engineer. I mix some songs at 85 db some rockin tunes I may mix as loud as 115db in the right venue, with the right artist. You have to look at your recorders level control and set it so there is atleast 10 db of head room. A clip light that lights up 2 to 3 db and stays on for one second is not going to help. You need a VU METER NOT A CLIP LIGHT. end of argument it amazes me how some people talk to me like I dont know how to set a %$#@ level, it's what I do for a living, when I am not selling my little mics and preamps. I know what the hell I am talking about. It's one thing to record a show its just a tad bit more complicated to mix it. In the end who do you trust the guy that tapes a few shows or the guy that mixes them for a living?
I don't mean to be offensive but for christ sakes listen to your argument what does a clip light tell you? when the mix is always changing you need to watch a vu meter because by the time the stupid clip light comes on you already have distortion. And chances are your already overloading the recorders input? so why not just watch the $@@@@@ level on the recorder? that is the best way to maximiize the signal to noise ratio with my preamps. Because I take all the stupid shit you dont need and give you what you do need. I have used everything from Neve to Midas to API the best preamps in the world and at the end, I use my ears and a VU meter to tell me where my levels are at not a clip light that comes on way to early in most cases to be usefull. And if you use the argument that you can some how calibrate the clip light so it corrisponds with your vu on your recorder its not true. Yes when the clip light comes on you may be close to clipping but are you really? or is this just an idiot light? I love good gear and good design. But if the clip light is not accurate AND MOST OF THEM ARE NOT. then hey whats the point lets just take a peek at the recorder if you are in doubt, about levels. And my rule of thumb for your recorders input also applies to the mic input of the preamp to avoid distortion you need atleast 10db of headroom for most concerts and I would argue thats not enough some times. So if a clip light is anywhere from 2 db to 10 db before real distortion what does it tell you?


Chris Church
ps i am not having a good day so I am just a tad bit bitchy sorry.



Chris Church

I agree that clip lights rule.

Nothing posted in that sea of text has refuted the usefulness of clip lights while stealthing.  If I am recording into a jb3, I am not pulling that huge thing out of my pocket/shirt/wherever during most stealth shows to try and read those tiny meters.. On the other hand, I can have a pre (or microtrack) in my shirt pocket with the clip LED facing my chest and all I need to do is push the pocket open a bit and glance out of the corner of my eye for the flashing..

It was suggested that the MD or hard disc recorder will overload if the clip light is lit. That may be but it is trivial to work around.  You advance the gain until the light indicates clipping and then back off the gain whatever amount is necessary (from previous testing) to get to the point that is safe with your gear and provides the appropriate safety margin for the circumstances.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

I hear you. I am working on a f'in clip light as we speak I understand what you guys are saying but, what i am saying is clip lights are not as accurate as looking at the display or just knowing your gear and setting it 10 db below clip from the onset.

Chris Church

My point is... U missed the target market. While U might like to think ur products are meant
for production mixing or even for open tapers, most of the folks who will ever buy ur preamps
are doing it for stealth taping....

And for stealth taping applications, the tapers are not aiming for the best mix, but the possible
best mix W/O getting caught.

Think of this ok music is dynamic I am a live front of house sound engineer. I mix some songs at 85 db some rockin tunes I may mix as loud as 115db in the right venue, with the right artist. You have to look at your recorders level control and set it so there is atleast 10 db of head room. A clip light that lights up 2 to 3 db and stays on for one second is not going to help. You need a VU METER NOT A CLIP LIGHT. end of argument it amazes me how some people talk to me like I dont know how to set a %$#@ level, it's what I do for a living, when I am not selling my little mics and preamps. I know what the hell I am talking about. It's one thing to record a show its just a tad bit more complicated to mix it. In the end who do you trust the guy that tapes a few shows or the guy that mixes them for a living?
I don't mean to be offensive but for christ sakes listen to your argument what does a clip light tell you? when the mix is always changing you need to watch a vu meter because by the time the stupid clip light comes on you already have distortion. And chances are your already overloading the recorders input? so why not just watch the $@@@@@ level on the recorder? that is the best way to maximiize the signal to noise ratio with my preamps. Because I take all the stupid shit you dont need and give you what you do need. I have used everything from Neve to Midas to API the best preamps in the world and at the end, I use my ears and a VU meter to tell me where my levels are at not a clip light that comes on way to early in most cases to be usefull. And if you use the argument that you can some how calibrate the clip light so it corrisponds with your vu on your recorder its not true. Yes when the clip light comes on you may be close to clipping but are you really? or is this just an idiot light? I love good gear and good design. But if the clip light is not accurate AND MOST OF THEM ARE NOT. then hey whats the point lets just take a peek at the recorder if you are in doubt, about levels. And my rule of thumb for your recorders input also applies to the mic input of the preamp to avoid distortion you need atleast 10db of headroom for most concerts and I would argue thats not enough some times. So if a clip light is anywhere from 2 db to 10 db before real distortion what does it tell you?


Chris Church
ps i am not having a good day so I am just a tad bit bitchy sorry.



Chris Church

I agree that clip lights rule.

Nothing posted in that sea of text has refuted the usefulness of clip lights while stealthing.  If I am recording into a jb3, I am not pulling that huge thing out of my pocket/shirt/wherever during most stealth shows to try and read those tiny meters.. On the other hand, I can have a pre (or microtrack) in my shirt pocket with the clip LED facing my chest and all I need to do is push the pocket open a bit and glance out of the corner of my eye for the flashing..

It was suggested that the MD or hard disc recorder will overload if the clip light is lit. That may be but it is trivial to work around.  You advance the gain until the light indicates clipping and then back off the gain whatever amount is necessary (from previous testing) to get to the point that is safe with your gear and provides the appropriate safety margin for the circumstances.

[Brian Skalinder]

when the mix is always changing you need to watch a vu meter because by the time the stupid clip light comes on you already have distortion. And chances are your already overloading the recorders input?

Most single "clip" lights I've seen do not trigger when clipping, they usually light in the -2 to -3 dB range.  So, even if they light up, you're not already overloading the ADC and clipping.  That said...

Think of this ok music is dynamic I am a live front of house sound engineer. I mix some songs at 85 db some rockin tunes I may mix as loud as 115db in the right venue, with the right artist.

For a single artist in a single venue, the absolute dynamics don't change radically over the course of the performance.  Some engineers slowly crank up the volume as they sort out the mix, but I've never experienced anything like a 30 dB absolute gain change.  I have experienced large relative gain changes, e.g. between quieter and louder songs, but never large absolute gain changes across a single artist's set on a given night.  As such, IME it takes a single loud song to get levels set reasonably close.  Which is where the single level indicator comes in...

You have to look at your recorders level control and set it so there is atleast 10 db of head room. A clip light that lights up 2 to 3 db and stays on for one second is not going to help.

It absolutely helps.  At least it's helped me in the past (I have better level meters now).  Once  I encounter that first loud song of the performance, I get my levels largely set for the rest of the performance, with only minor (if any) tweaking involved.  I've  never needed "at least 10 dB of head room" for any single amplified performance.  Unamplified, yes, and in those situations a single level light is woefully insufficient in my experience.

so why not just watch the $@@@@@ level on the recorder?

Some recorders have meters that are even less useful than a single clip indicator.  The JB3, for example.  And as already suggested, sometimes it's not practical to break out the recorder to check it.

You need a VU METER NOT A CLIP LIGHT. end of argument

Is it possible to achieve greater precision in setting levels with a broad level meter range?  Sure.  Is a single level indicator useful?  You bet.  There is no argument, so to speak.  Some people find the single level meter useful.  You, obviously, do not.

The marketplace is speaking right now:  tapers (especially stealthers, to  whom your gear is most appealing) value even a single level meter indicator (in the -2 to -3 dB range) to help set levels.  You, personally, may not find it useful, but your potential customers apparently do.  How you decide to handle that difference of opinion is a business decision for you to make, of course.

Your post beat me to it, Chris.  But I just finished writing thedamn post, so I'm gonna post it anyway. 

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Hi I agree with alot of the points you make. Except one dynamics in a live show do swing sometimes by 10 db or more in a real concert. Even with the same artist. Not to mention when I mix a show I ask the opening band to leave me some headroom at least 10 db so When my band goes on you know it. I have mixed 1000's of bands over 20 years and measured levels in a show that go from 90 db to 100 db easlly in the same show. So I feel if you have that 10 db + of headroom all the way around your golden I did not say 30db, I dont know where that came from. I am working on some kind of level indicator maybe 3 db with say -20 -10 -0 db indicators. No clip light but level indicator on a momentary switch so that the lights are not always on that way you can stealth with out letting people know that your checking levels. What do you think of that idea?

I thank you for your input I do want to please my customers. But at the price point my preamp is at I will have to raise the price to incorperate the level meter.

Chris Church

when the mix is always changing you need to watch a vu meter because by the time the stupid clip light comes on you already have distortion. And chances are your already overloading the recorders input?

Most single "clip" lights I've seen do not trigger when clipping, they usually light in the -2 to -3 dB range.  So, even if they light up, you're not already overloading the ADC and clipping.  That said...

Think of this ok music is dynamic I am a live front of house sound engineer. I mix some songs at 85 db some rockin tunes I may mix as loud as 115db in the right venue, with the right artist.

For a single artist in a single venue, the absolute dynamics don't change radically over the course of the performance.  Some engineers slowly crank up the volume as they sort out the mix, but I've never experienced anything like a 30 dB absolute gain change.  I have experienced large relative gain changes, e.g. between quieter and louder songs, but never large absolute gain changes across a single artist's set on a given night.  As such, IME it takes a single loud song to get levels set reasonably close.  Which is where the single level indicator comes in...

You have to look at your recorders level control and set it so there is atleast 10 db of head room. A clip light that lights up 2 to 3 db and stays on for one second is not going to help.

It absolutely helps.  At least it's helped me in the past (I have better level meters now).  Once  I encounter that first loud song of the performance, I get my levels largely set for the rest of the performance, with only minor (if any) tweaking involved.  I've  never needed "at least 10 dB of head room" for any single amplified performance.  Unamplified, yes, and in those situations a single level light is woefully insufficient in my experience.

so why not just watch the $@@@@@ level on the recorder?

Some recorders have meters that are even less useful than a single clip indicator.  The JB3, for example.  And as already suggested, sometimes it's not practical to break out the recorder to check it.

You need a VU METER NOT A CLIP LIGHT. end of argument

Is it possible to achieve greater precision in setting levels with a broad level meter range?  Sure.  Is a single level indicator useful?  You bet.  There is no argument, so to speak.  Some people find the single level meter useful.  You, obviously, do not.

The marketplace is speaking right now:  tapers (especially stealthers, to  whom your gear is most appealing) value even a single level meter indicator (in the -2 to -3 dB range) to help set levels.  You, personally, may not find it useful, but your potential customers apparently do.  How you decide to handle that difference of opinion is a business decision for you to make, of course.

Your post beat me to it, Chris.  But I just finished writing thedamn post, so I'm gonna post it anyway. 

[poorlyconditioned]

Hi I agree with alot of the points you make. Except one dynamics in a live show do swing sometimes by 10 db or more in a real concert. Even with the same artist. Not to mention when I mix a show I ask the opening band to leave me some headroom at least 10 db so When my band goes on you know it. I have mixed 1000's of bands over 20 years and measured levels in a show that go from 90 db to 100 db easlly in the same show. So I feel if you have that 10 db + of headroom all the way around your golden I did not say 30db, I dont know where that came from. I am working on some kind of level indicator maybe 3 db with say -20 -10 -0 db indicators. No clip light but level indicator on a momentary switch so that the lights are not always on that way you can stealth with out letting people know that your checking levels. What do you think of that idea?

I thank you for your input I do want to please my customers. But at the price point my preamp is at I will have to raise the price to incorperate the level meter.

Chris Church

Hey, I like the idea of an instantaneous switch to turn the level meter on or off.

I would concur with others about the ease of using a single clip light though.  There are many Edirol UA5 users, myself included, who can use the single "-3dB" LED to adjust the levels.  Just let it flicker a bit and you're right at -3dB peak level.  I prefer to turn it down just till it *stops* flickering, so you're running -6 or -10dB or so.  This reduces ADC distortion in my experience.

Anyway the point is by periodically checking the clip light you can bump the levels down a bit as the show progresses.  You just have to get used to the "dynamics" of the particular piece of gear you're using.

  Richard

[Brian Skalinder]

I did not say 30db, I dont know where that came from.

Just my addled brain, don't mind me.

I am working on some kind of level indicator maybe 3 db with say -20 -10 -0 db indicators. No clip light but level indicator on a momentary switch so that the lights are not always on that way you can stealth with out letting people know that your checking levels. What do you think of that idea?

I don't stealth much, but that sounds like a cool idea.

I thank you for your input I do want to please my customers. But at the price point my preamp is at I will have to raise the price to incorperate the level meter.

Yup.  Always a balance between price / performance.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

No clip light but level indicator on a momentary switch so that the lights are not always on that way you can stealth with out letting people know that your checking levels. What do you think of that idea?

I thank you for your input I do want to please my customers. But at the price point my preamp is at I will have to raise the price to incorperate the level meter.

Chris Church

Adding a VU meter and a switch adds cost and bulk that I don't think these guys are asking for.  I think most would be satisfied by an indicator at -3db with a short hold time so that the user doesn't miss a blink.  Having to press a switch will draw more attention than just glancing down into a pocket.  If you want to get really fancy, use a two color LED and show green when hitting -6db and red at -3db. 

An example of a peak indicator being helpful is the way I run my 722.  It has a full range meter and a peak indicator LED.  The meters are fine but after things are rolling, I monitor just the peak indicator to know when I need to back off the gain a little.  It's more accurate than watching the ballistics of the meter because it's difficult to see the difference between the last 2 LEDs when the level is bouncing.  The peak indicator is more useful and for low profile work it is the easiest way for me to stay off the limit, even though I have a perfectly functional full range meter.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

I was thinking of a two color led green =-3, red =clip. I think that is the best way, I now have to figure out how to add that circuit with out effecting my preamps sound quality, this is no small task. I just wanted to use a single burr brown opamp not a pair of them, the only way I can see adding it would be to use two op amps, and use one half for audio, the other half for a clip light. Since my circuit is well balanced between left and right it would work. So any smart electronics guys out there want to come up with a good design that does not allow for me to have to use two op amps, I will give them a free 3 wire preamp for the design of the audio indicator!

No clip light but level indicator on a momentary switch so that the lights are not always on that way you can stealth with out letting people know that your checking levels. What do you think of that idea?

I thank you for your input I do want to please my customers. But at the price point my preamp is at I will have to raise the price to incorperate the level meter.

Chris Church

Adding a VU meter and a switch adds cost and bulk that I don't think these guys are asking for.  I think most would be satisfied by an indicator at -3db with a short hold time so that the user doesn't miss a blink.  Having to press a switch will draw more attention than just glancing down into a pocket.  If you want to get really fancy, use a two color LED and show green when hitting -6db and red at -3db. 

An example of a peak indicator being helpful is the way I run my 722.  It has a full range meter and a peak indicator LED.  The meters are fine but after things are rolling, I monitor just the peak indicator to know when I need to back off the gain a little.  It's more accurate than watching the ballistics of the meter because it's difficult to see the difference between the last 2 LEDs when the level is bouncing.  The peak indicator is more useful and for low profile work it is the easiest way for me to stay off the limit, even though I have a perfectly functional full range meter.

[scoper]

Chris, speaking for color blind people everywhere, if you're using two lights, DON'T make them red and green - we won't be able to tell the difference!!

That was my problem with the SVU-1 - they used green, yellow, and red lights, and it was impossible for me to determine which was which. I had to put a rubber band over the -3 lights, so I knew if I saw a gap I'm going over.

One light, it doesn't matter. Two lights, use blue along with anything else.

Thanks!

Scott

[Javier Cinakowski]

This thread is interesting.  FWIW I really like my Church Audio preamp.

[poorlyconditioned]

I was thinking of a two color led green =-3, red =clip. I think that is the best way, I now have to figure out how to add that circuit with out effecting my preamps sound quality, this is no small task. I just wanted to use a single burr brown opamp not a pair of them, the only way I can see adding it would be to use two op amps, and use one half for audio, the other half for a clip light. Since my circuit is well balanced between left and right it would work. So any smart electronics guys out there want to come up with a good design that does not allow for me to have to use two op amps, I will give them a free 3 wire preamp for the design of the audio indicator!

No clip light but level indicator on a momentary switch so that the lights are not always on that way you can stealth with out letting people know that your checking levels. What do you think of that idea?

I thank you for your input I do want to please my customers. But at the price point my preamp is at I will have to raise the price to incorperate the level meter.

Chris Church

Adding a VU meter and a switch adds cost and bulk that I don't think these guys are asking for.  I think most would be satisfied by an indicator at -3db with a short hold time so that the user doesn't miss a blink.  Having to press a switch will draw more attention than just glancing down into a pocket.  If you want to get really fancy, use a two color LED and show green when hitting -6db and red at -3db. 

An example of a peak indicator being helpful is the way I run my 722.  It has a full range meter and a peak indicator LED.  The meters are fine but after things are rolling, I monitor just the peak indicator to know when I need to back off the gain a little.  It's more accurate than watching the ballistics of the meter because it's difficult to see the difference between the last 2 LEDs when the level is bouncing.  The peak indicator is more useful and for low profile work it is the easiest way for me to stay off the limit, even though I have a perfectly functional full range meter.

I vote for a *single* red led.  I just lights at a single place, like -3dB.  Just like the Edirol UA5.  It is mostly off, and if you see it flicker, you back off a bit.

Two notes:
- the 'clip level' has to be adjusted by a small trim pot (eg., a hole in the case, with a screwdriver to the pcb).
    Why?  Well, the clip level depends on what ADC you're driving, eg., NJB3 vs MD etc.  Adjust it once for your
   piece of gear
- the clip circuit could use a few discrete components (transistor, etc).  I've found "Rolls" products have schematics for a lot of their stuff.  Check out their mic preamps.  I think I've seen something with a few discrete components.  That way you can keep your opamps for the signal.

Good luck, and thanks for listening to the (grumpy) tapirs!

  Richard

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Hi Richard I was thinking why can't I just set the clip light at 1% distortion and leave it at that, so if you see it on you know your atleast at 1%. Or have the trim pot like you say, humm.... that acctually makes more sence.  I will take a look at rolls.

I was thinking of a two color led green =-3, red =clip. I think that is the best way, I now have to figure out how to add that circuit with out effecting my preamps sound quality, this is no small task. I just wanted to use a single burr brown opamp not a pair of them, the only way I can see adding it would be to use two op amps, and use one half for audio, the other half for a clip light. Since my circuit is well balanced between left and right it would work. So any smart electronics guys out there want to come up with a good design that does not allow for me to have to use two op amps, I will give them a free 3 wire preamp for the design of the audio indicator!

No clip light but level indicator on a momentary switch so that the lights are not always on that way you can stealth with out letting people know that your checking levels. What do you think of that idea?

I thank you for your input I do want to please my customers. But at the price point my preamp is at I will have to raise the price to incorperate the level meter.

Chris Church

Adding a VU meter and a switch adds cost and bulk that I don't think these guys are asking for.  I think most would be satisfied by an indicator at -3db with a short hold time so that the user doesn't miss a blink.  Having to press a switch will draw more attention than just glancing down into a pocket.  If you want to get really fancy, use a two color LED and show green when hitting -6db and red at -3db. 

An example of a peak indicator being helpful is the way I run my 722.  It has a full range meter and a peak indicator LED.  The meters are fine but after things are rolling, I monitor just the peak indicator to know when I need to back off the gain a little.  It's more accurate than watching the ballistics of the meter because it's difficult to see the difference between the last 2 LEDs when the level is bouncing.  The peak indicator is more useful and for low profile work it is the easiest way for me to stay off the limit, even though I have a perfectly functional full range meter.

I vote for a *single* red led.  I just lights at a single place, like -3dB.  Just like the Edirol UA5.  It is mostly off, and if you see it flicker, you back off a bit.

Two notes:
- the 'clip level' has to be adjusted by a small trim pot (eg., a hole in the case, with a screwdriver to the pcb).
    Why?  Well, the clip level depends on what ADC you're driving, eg., NJB3 vs MD etc.  Adjust it once for your
   piece of gear
- the clip circuit could use a few discrete components (transistor, etc).  I've found "Rolls" products have schematics for a lot of their stuff.  Check out their mic preamps.  I think I've seen something with a few discrete components.  That way you can keep your opamps for the signal.

Good luck, and thanks for listening to the (grumpy) tapirs!

  Richard

[poorlyconditioned]

Hi Richard I was thinking why can't I just set the clip light at 1% distortion and leave it at that, so if you see it on you know your atleast at 1%. Or have the trim pot like you say, humm.... that acctually makes more sence.  I will take a look at rolls.

You want to trim it at a fixed level, like -3dB.  That way, you just watch the light and adjust your gain so it is just below clipping the ADC.

There are simple discrete circuits that will drive the light.  I don't know if they will respond quickly/reliably though.  From my cursory analysis of the Edirol UA5, the clip light appears to come directly from the ADC somehow (?), and not from the preamp stage.  I don't know how this works though...

  Richard

[scoper]

Church Audio's smallest, cheapest pre-amp is FS in the Yard Sale..

[schoff]

Is it just me or at 4.75" by 9" by 2.5" the Reactive sounds spa-2 doesn`t seem to be that stealthy? 9 inches that`s pretty big and not the type of thing you can easily hide on your person

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

I should not say this but I love the retro looking CB mic cable on it too makes me want to say breaker breaker good buddy.

Is it just me or at 4.75" by 9" by 2.5" the Reactive sounds spa-2 doesn`t seem to be that stealthy? 9 inches that`s pretty big and not the type of thing you can easily hide on your person

[Javier Cinakowski]

Yeah, the CB style mic cable really looks professional.   

[madman]

Has anyone used any of their stuff?  Reading the following on their page about the "reporter mic" made me question them a little bit: An omni directional back electret microphone located in the tip picks up sound with a flat frequency response. This is an ideal situation for recording voices in noisy area’s.

Wouldn't a card make more sense for interviews in noisy areas?  The omni will just pick up all the noise along with the interview dialog.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

An omni close up is good you can reduce the gain and get a more natural sound most real reporter mics are omni because you might have a group of people you are trying to record that being said. It would not be good to have an omni mic so close to a recorder we make one, I dont sell alot of them they have there place I make mine out of rubber to reduce, Handeling noise there is a dude in the UK that copyed my design and is making big $$$ i guess in the UK they love there little omni reporter mics.

Has anyone used any of their stuff?  Reading the following on their page about the "reporter mic" made me question them a little bit: An omni directional back electret microphone located in the tip picks up sound with a flat frequency response. This is an ideal situation for recording voices in noisy area’s.

Wouldn't a card make more sense for interviews in noisy areas?  The omni will just pick up all the noise along with the interview dialog.

[madman]

Interesting.  I wonder how their Auris stereo mics stack up to others in the price range.  I assume the reporter mic and pen mic are based on the popular panasonic capsule but don't know for sure.  I guess I could also do a search on there and find out 

[corsair]

Interesting.  I wonder how their Auris stereo mics stack up to others in the price range.  I assume the reporter mic and pen mic are based on the popular panasonic capsule but don't know for sure.  I guess I could also do a search on there and find out 

Not sure about the reporter and pen mics, but the Auris is also based on the same Panasonic caps, like Core Sound and others do... For roughly the same thing, it looks slightly better built and at a lower price...

[corsair]

Is it just me or at 4.75" by 9" by 2.5" the Reactive sounds spa-2 doesn`t seem to be that stealthy? 9 inches that`s pretty big and not the type of thing you can easily hide on your person

You need glasses or better ones.. Its 0.9 "

[hyperplane]

i don't personally own a Reactive Sounds preamp, but i thought i'd chime in here.

to me, one can make fun of the appearance of a unit, but who cares? my main concerns with a unit (recorder, mics, preamp, battery box, etc.) are, in no particular oder: quality of performance, quality of desgin/parts used, reliability, price point. i use an R-1 for pete's sake, and i'm not sure if anyone would consider that unit "attractive" or "sleek" or "cool looking" by any stretch. but it's extremely reliable, provides excellent sound quality, and is at a good price point.

curly cable? who cares?! i'm more interested in knowing how well this Boostbox performs/how well it sounds.

for the record, I didn't think my D7, D8, nor M1 looked all that great either. but i see most live recording units as being utilitarian i.e. "will it competently get the job done and get the job done well"), not about how fashionable the unit looks.

i might have a shot at trying out the Boostbox in about a month, and i can't wait. the only things i would change, and this is for functionality's sake, is that it would provide 3-wire powering and have a right-angle mini-plug. but oh, well, it's no big deal.

[schoff]

Is it just me or at 4.75" by 9" by 2.5" the Reactive sounds spa-2 doesn`t seem to be that stealthy? 9 inches that`s pretty big and not the type of thing you can easily hide on your person

You need glasses or better ones.. Its 0.9 "

Well that makes a bit more sence. 

Thanks for the correction

[schoff]

So how do people feel about the Sound Pro SP preamp compared with the the Reactive sounds spa-2?

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

I think thats a good preamp. I have tested it. IMO our preamp is just as good although we do not provide 50 db of gain. But there are different preamps for different applications. Ours are not perfect for every single application out there. That being said, the same with some of the other makers of preamps. One thing people have to remember if you want them as small as we build them about the size of a pack of smokes. You are not going to get all the features of a full size studio preamp. How ever with out prodiuct you still get a great sounding preamp. At a great price.

So how do people feel about the Sound Pro SP preamp compared with the the Reactive sounds spa-2?

[poorlyconditioned]

I think thats a good preamp. I have tested it. IMO our preamp is just as good although we do not provide 50 db of gain. But there are different preamps for different applications. Ours are not perfect for every single application out there. That being said, the same with some of the other makers of preamps. One thing people have to remember if you want them as small as we build them about the size of a pack of smokes. You are not going to get all the features of a full size studio preamp. How ever with out prodiuct you still get a great sounding preamp. At a great price.

So how do people feel about the Sound Pro SP preamp compared with the the Reactive sounds spa-2?

I imagine these are all similar (although SP would not disclose the contents of their preamp!), but you (Church) have got them way beat on price!  +T for that.

  Richard

[corsair]

Well, to show ur appreciation. U can forward one of such preamps to me for free. 

We now have a clip light thanks to you I got off my ass and designed one


Chris Church

[corsair]

  I will think about it.. this offer is lifetime right? 

hummm No
Tell you what I will give you 25% off the price



Chris Church

Well, to show ur appreciation. U can forward one of such preamps to me for free. 

We now have a clip light thanks to you I got off my ass and designed one


Chris Church

[nihilistic0]

I was pretty much wondering the same thing.  My mics handle 125dB with standard SP battery box, and heavy bass distorts them

should I just sell this batt box and score one of these preamps? i want the least amount of gear possible for a good undisrted sound and easy stealthing

[nihilistic0]

2 out of my 3 recordings with these mics sound fine


then I saw tool. the bass was just simply obnoxious, whole body shaking, made it feel werid to breathe, etc. Not super distorted, but pretty fuzzy on the bass


but anyway, i guess my main question still stands

[nihilistic0]

Just the basic unmodded 2-wire battery box from sound professionals, no rolloff

[Zaphod]

So are these three wire or two wire if they are two wire the st-9000 $150 will help if they are three wire you want my ST-9100 preamp with 00- to +20 db of gain.

2 out of my 3 recordings with these mics sound fine


then I saw tool. the bass was just simply obnoxious, whole body shaking, made it feel werid to breathe, etc. Not super distorted, but pretty fuzzy on the bass


but anyway, i guess my main question still stands

You'll get way better sound and response if you ran a three wire battery box, and if you get the Church 3 wire batt. box/pre-amp you'll have a lot more control. If you running just a three wire battery box, the levels won't be as hot as the SP 2 wire.

With those two wire boxes the high SPL sound gets kind of "crunched" if you will, IMO.

[Javier Cinakowski]

This seems to be a problem with the with AT mics only.  My mke40's(2 wire) are rated at 138SPL and I have recorded some very loud sounds with no problems.

[ethan]

Why not try line transformers and a PS-2...I've personally had great results...I don't stealth but this is part of my travel rig.

-e

[Zaphod]

Why not try line transformers and a PS-2...I've personally had great results...I don't stealth but this is part of my travel rig.

-e

That would work as well, but would be a bit more bulky since you would also the the P48v adapters to use the PS2.

[ethan]

Why not try line transformers and a PS-2...I've personally had great results...I don't stealth but this is part of my travel rig.

-e

That would work as well, but would be a bit more bulky since you would also the the P48v adapters to use the PS2.

The PS-2 is 48V phantom

[Zaphod]

Why not try line transformers and a PS-2...I've personally had great results...I don't stealth but this is part of my travel rig.

-e

That would work as well, but would be a bit more bulky since you would also the the P48v adapters to use the PS2.

The PS-2 is 48V phantom

I wasn't being clear enough in my previous post, to run the AT853s you need the P48v adapters.

[ethan]

Why not try line transformers and a PS-2...I've personally had great results...I don't stealth but this is part of my travel rig.

-e

That would work as well, but would be a bit more bulky since you would also the the P48v adapters to use the PS2.

The PS-2 is 48V phantom

I wasn't being clear enough in my previous post, to run the AT853s you need the P48v adapters.

ah..ok sorry about that...

[nihilistic0]

So are these three wire or two wire if they are two wire the st-9000 $150 will help if they are three wire you want my ST-9100 preamp with 00- to +20 db of gain.

2 out of my 3 recordings with these mics sound fine


then I saw tool. the bass was just simply obnoxious, whole body shaking, made it feel werid to breathe, etc. Not super distorted, but pretty fuzzy on the bass


but anyway, i guess my main question still stands

You'll get way better sound and response if you ran a three wire battery box, and if you get the Church 3 wire batt. box/pre-amp you'll have a lot more control. If you running just a three wire battery box, the levels won't be as hot as the SP 2 wire.

With those two wire boxes the high SPL sound gets kind of "crunched" if you will, IMO.

Yea, I heard the 3-wire BB lowers the signal, and the JB3 has no actual gain, so yea, I think i may sell it and pony up for a preamp instead

I just want a minimalistic rig that will record everything without problems.  Ive been happy with the quality of my 1st 2 recordings with the AT853's, and I know it soulnd a bit better with a preamp and the ability to handle higher spl's