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Author Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)  (Read 119308 times)

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Offline kleiner Rainer

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #345 on: September 28, 2010, 04:08:45 PM »
Hi all,

I feel compelled to answer some of the remarks concerning my post about proper wiring, connectors and EMC.

Guysonic, if you encountered no EMC or hum problems during the last 25 years, you are lucky. You can dismiss my application as an extreme, but EMC problems are like a leaking roof: you only recognize it when it starts to rain. How many cellphones did you see 25 or even 15 years ago? Rest assured, the 100% AM modulated cellphone signals (GSM) that are transmitted within a few meters of high sensitivity recording systems will get to your attention if anything is wrong with your wiring. Our recording gang has the rule to switch off all cellphones before recording (we sure want no ringing phone in an ambient recording, not to talk about possible RF noises...).

BTW: If you recorded the sound of the sparks of the tesla coil, you would have a hard time to discern the electrical noise from the acoustical noise...

Groovon, my choice of connector is not "overengineered". I simply do not want a crappy connector that generates dropouts at the slightest movement. My recordings have to be right the first try, because most of them can not be repeated. I simply have a different approach on that issue. And the only connectors that hold up well to my kind of (ab)use are made by Neutrik (maybe Switchcraft would work also).
BTW what is wrong with the concept "handle with care"? My trusty WM-D6C survived over 20 years of outdoor recording under harsh conditions in spite of "micky mouse connectors" with several meters of well shielded mic cable attached. I simply handled it like a precision instrument (which it certainly is).

The Sony PCM-M10 is well shielded - I operated a GSM cellphone and a 5W VHF/UHF handheld transceiver within arms length of it, and it did not show any unexpected reaction, otherwise it would have gone back to the dealer. Plastic cases can be shielded with a sprayed-on copper or nickel film - this is done with laptops since many years. And a good multilayer circuit board sure helps - sometimes you even don't need shielding to achieve CE compliance if the layouter knows his job. The only problems I had with it was caused by a crappy cable - it had gold plated connectors but a substandard shield - something you can't find out without destroying the cable.

Now for the record: I do not want to sell anything to you. I just share my hard earned experience gained in 40 years of electronics, 24 years of them as a professional in the electronics design and EMC fields. You can take my advice or leave it. Its up to you.


Greetings,

Rainer
recording steam trains since 1985

Offline kleiner Rainer

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Re: PCM-M10 0dB level
« Reply #346 on: September 28, 2010, 04:31:04 PM »
Due to the nature of the on screen VU meter, there is an unavoidable inaccuracy when setting/reproducing levels.

A great feature of the 7xx recorders is that the display shows how many dB you are adding.  So there is no mystery.  If only all recorders did that...  Though many pre-amps do, like the v3.

Maybe I was not clear enough - I am not a native speaker. The inaccuracy I talked about is caused by the granularity of the display - if you increase the input voltage, the segment "x" is switched on at say 100mV, the segment "x+1" at 120mv. If you reduce the level, segment "X+1" should switch off at 120mV. But since it would flicker at the treshold, most manufacturers use hysteresis to avoid flicker, in our example the segment switches off at say 115mV. So there is an uncertainty about the actual level of 5mv at the threshold. The classic moving coil VU meter with a pointer for example has a parallax error unless it has a mirror scale.

I just wanted to include this info as a reminder of possible measurement errors.


Greetings,

Rainer
recording steam trains since 1985

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: PCM-M10 0dB level
« Reply #347 on: September 28, 2010, 05:48:09 PM »
Maybe I was not clear enough - I am not a native speaker. The inaccuracy I talked about is caused by the granularity of the display - if you increase the input voltage, the segment "x" is switched on at say 100mV, the segment "x+1" at 120mv.

You were quite clear.. I muddled things by responding about the amount of added gain, and not the metering.

On the subject of the metering, in some situations it would be similarly nice to have the option of numeric dBFS listed along with the meter.  Ideally as avg rms, and peak, or volts.   I'm not sure if any of these devices as the compute power to do that.

Offline kleiner Rainer

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Re: PCM-M10 0dB level
« Reply #348 on: September 29, 2010, 04:26:31 PM »
Maybe I was not clear enough - I am not a native speaker. The inaccuracy I talked about is caused by the granularity of the display - if you increase the input voltage, the segment "x" is switched on at say 100mV, the segment "x+1" at 120mv.

You were quite clear.. I muddled things by responding about the amount of added gain, and not the metering.

On the subject of the metering, in some situations it would be similarly nice to have the option of numeric dBFS listed along with the meter.  Ideally as avg rms, and peak, or volts.   I'm not sure if any of these devices as the compute power to do that.

The M10 shows the headroom left as a small extra number (for example "-4dB") to the right of the VU bargraph during both record and play, with a peak hold time of about 1 sec.

Greetings,

Rainer
recording steam trains since 1985

Offline sctp

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #349 on: September 29, 2010, 06:01:54 PM »
I just got a PCM-M10 after reading all the great info here, thanks everyone.

I do post processing in Audacity so am unconcerned with recording issues correctable in post.  I care about getting the best raw SNR from the unit.  Based on my readings of this board, I've collected my best stab at how each feature may impact SNR (where N = ambient background noise I'm trying to isolate my sound from).  Would appreciate any help correcting this list:

1. Manual Gain - Adjusts analog preamp so effective at maximizing SNR
2. Automatic Gain - Also adjusts analog preamp so effective at maximizing SNR??
3. Microphone Sensitivity - Hurts SNR if in High Mode, use Low Mode and high gain instead whenever possible
4. Limiter - Digital Limiter instead of analog, so no impact on SNR, cuts noise along with signal, equivalent to compression in post processing

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #350 on: September 29, 2010, 06:40:20 PM »
2. Automatic Gain - Also adjusts analog preamp so effective at maximizing SNR??

Never use it recording music with any recorder. It squashes the dynamic range. Everyone on this board will tell you to always use manual level.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline duch

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #351 on: September 29, 2010, 07:01:23 PM »
I just got an M10 to get rid of a file-destroying MicroTrack. Looks like a nice little toy !

Offline sctp

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #352 on: September 29, 2010, 09:01:27 PM »
2. Automatic Gain - Also adjusts analog preamp so effective at maximizing SNR??

Never use it recording music with any recorder. It squashes the dynamic range. Everyone on this board will tell you to always use manual level.

I'm recording voices.  Two people speaking.  Lavaliere is on one of them.   Any recording advantage to using automatic gain versus correction in post in this case given dynamic range probably not an issue and one level will definitely be higher than the other?

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #353 on: September 29, 2010, 09:20:45 PM »
I'm recording voices.  Two people speaking.  Lavaliere is on one of them.   Any recording advantage to using automatic gain versus correction in post in this case given dynamic range probably not an issue and one level will definitely be higher than the other?

There might be in some cases, but I suspect it could still cause problems like amplifying background noise when nobody is speaking for a few seconds.

Someone else may know-I never record voices.

Try to test it both ways yourself if you have time.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline CTjazzfanatic

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #354 on: September 30, 2010, 09:17:47 AM »
I also posted this in the team Church Audio thread a couple of days ago. I looking for an little external feedback. I have been recording for about six months now and am still trying to perfect my methods. If anyone has time to ldownload and isten to the file in the link and let me know what you think I would be appreciative. It is one track from a recording I made Friday night at a jazz performance in a small club in NYC.

http://rapidshare.com/files/421617713/MTurner2010-09-24track01.flac.html

CA-14 (omnis) -> CA-9100 -> PCM-M10 (24 bit/44.1kHz)

converted to 16bit with Audacity.

Thanks.
Mics: Schoeps CCM 4; DPA 4060; SP-CMC-25
Power: Naiant Tinybox; SP battery box
Recorder: Sony PCM-M10

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #355 on: September 30, 2010, 09:52:03 AM »
I wanted to check it out, but rapidshare is not working for me unless I pay to join.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline CTjazzfanatic

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #356 on: September 30, 2010, 11:51:59 AM »
I wanted to check it out, but rapidshare is not working for me unless I pay to join.

Sorry. I did not know that. I thought rapidshare had an option for free users - just that the download would be slower. If that is no longer the case I will look into an alternative means of posting the track.
Mics: Schoeps CCM 4; DPA 4060; SP-CMC-25
Power: Naiant Tinybox; SP battery box
Recorder: Sony PCM-M10

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #357 on: September 30, 2010, 12:05:46 PM »
It does have an alternative for free users but it didn't work for me previously.

Just tried again & it seemed to be working but firefox froze after 20% download. Now its a 10 minute wait to try again.

I'm done with rapidshare, but the little I was able to download sounded pretty good to me.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 12:22:36 PM by fmaderjr »
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline CTjazzfanatic

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #358 on: September 30, 2010, 12:45:56 PM »
It does have an alternative for free users but it didn't work for me previously.

Just tried again & it seemed to be working but firefox froze after 20% download. Now its a 10 minute wait to try again.

I'm done with rapidshare, but the little I was able to download sounded pretty good to me.

I appreciate the effort and the feedback.
Mics: Schoeps CCM 4; DPA 4060; SP-CMC-25
Power: Naiant Tinybox; SP battery box
Recorder: Sony PCM-M10

Offline Chris 91

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)
« Reply #359 on: September 30, 2010, 05:26:30 PM »
I also posted this in the team Church Audio thread a couple of days ago. I looking for an little external feedback. I have been recording for about six months now and am still trying to perfect my methods. If anyone has time to ldownload and isten to the file in the link and let me know what you think I would be appreciative. It is one track from a recording I made Friday night at a jazz performance in a small club in NYC.

http://rapidshare.com/files/421617713/MTurner2010-09-24track01.flac.html

CA-14 (omnis) -> CA-9100 -> PCM-M10 (24 bit/44.1kHz)

converted to 16bit with Audacity.

Thanks.

Sounds really good, how far were you from the stage?

 

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