Topic: Why a preamp?

[Fried Chicken Boy]

New guy joining this conversation...  So I don't need a preamp if I'm using Church Audio (or Core-Sound) mics if I'm at say a major festival like Coachella/Sasquatch/Lollapalooza? I just need battery box with the mics when I used them in conjunction with my Edirol R-09HR?

Just to add my .02, in the 2-1/2 years that I've had/run Church CA-11's/AT831's into an Edirol R-09 (not an HR model) I've only used a battery box, never used a pre and have gotten great results.  I mainly record rock shows that tend to be loud but have taped in venues ranging in size from several dozen people to tens of thousands in both indoor and outdoor settings.  I agree that a mic pre would be useful when recording softer sources like an orchestra or unamplified jazz but the simple battery box has worked just fine for me on rock sources.  If your levels are too low, maybe you're too far away?  As the photojournalists I know are fond of saying, "If it doesn't look good, you're not close enough."  As always, YMMV.

[adrianf74]

New guy joining this conversation...  So I don't need a preamp if I'm using Church Audio (or Core-Sound) mics if I'm at say a major festival like Coachella/Sasquatch/Lollapalooza? I just need battery box with the mics when I used them in conjunction with my Edirol R-09HR?

Just to add my .02, in the 2-1/2 years that I've had/run Church CA-11's/AT831's into an Edirol R-09 (not an HR model) I've only used a battery box, never used a pre and have gotten great results.  I mainly record rock shows that tend to be loud but have taped in venues ranging in size from several dozen people to tens of thousands in both indoor and outdoor settings.  I agree that a mic pre would be useful when recording softer sources like an orchestra or unamplified jazz but the simple battery box has worked just fine for me on rock sources.  If your levels are too low, maybe you're too far away?  As the photojournalists I know are fond of saying, "If it doesn't look good, you're not close enough."  As always, YMMV.

"One Size Fits ALL Most."

If you're setting the R09 at unity (generally accepted to be input level 13), the pre-amp comes in handy.  I was in a small club (<500 people) and my battery box saw my levels hitting around -13dB.  I had to crank the deck up to input level 23 using the CAFS omnis.  I've been at Casinos as well where I had the pre-amp maxed out.  I've also recorded in open air festival situations and barely had the pre-amp moved past 12 o'clock meaning it was being utilized as a glorified battery box.  So, as you say, YMMV.  In the small club, I was standing halfway from the stage to the soundboard - about 30 ft from either).  For the casino show, I was halfway back on the floor. And for the open air show, I was standing about 5 feet in front of the soundoard which was about 60 ft from the stage. 

I like the flexibility of the pre-amp.  It also has a lower noisefloor than the R09 which I don't like to crank up for that reason.  My experiences have been with the CA-14 /O and /C and CAFS omni mics.  The small club show was for the alleged "grandfather of goth", the casino show was for an '80s duo who finally reunited and are doing a proper North American tour and the outdoor show as for a rock band that was produced by Gordie Johnson.   

Yes, you can get by using the battery box approach and gaining up on the line input of the R09 - it's just not the "best" option.  If your deck has a good noise floor, then it might not be that useful to have the pre- however it's always better to be safe than sorry.  Keep in mind, I remember when I used to tape back in the early '90s, I was dealing with the WM-D3 pro walkman and a TCD-D7 'portable' DAT deck.  The thickness of my R09 and pre- is not that much bigger than the D3 was (and it isn't as long).   I think that's the reason I use the pre- when I can.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I could be wrong (hell, it sure wouldn't be the first time) but I was under the impression that unity gain on an R-09 (not HR) was 8 or 9 out of the 30 that the input level goes up to?  Unity gain aside, all I'm stating is that in my experience and of the shows I've recorded with my R-09 and the mics I've used (Church CA-11's / AT831's), I've never run it past 17 with anything but a battery box in the signal chain at loud rock shows and consistently had levels in the -9 to -3 dB range on the meter (whew, run on sentence!).  That being said, my opinion is that a pre might not be necessary and a battery box might suffice depending on your source material.  As always, YMMV, One Size Fits Most, etc., etc...

[disco]

^^^So you were going mic-in with plug-in power after you dropped the pre?  High or low sensitivity on the recorder?  Or did you have a back-up battery box going line-in (or mic-in)?

no battery box, ran with plug in power. As for the sensitivity I'll have to check, i've never intentionally changed it after I had it setup.

[fmaderjr]

I could be wrong (hell, it sure wouldn't be the first time) but I was under the impression that unity gain on an R-09 (not HR) was 8 or 9 out of the 30 that the input level goes up to?

The generally accepted unity gain for line in is around 13. If you need to set the record level below 8 to keep the meters under 0 dB you will get brickwall distortion (8 or higher is fine). So 8 is actually the lowest safe setting, not the unity gain.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Gotcha.  Thank you for the clarification, fmaderjr.