Topic: Where should i leave the recordings?

[Popmarter]

alright. Big problem. I have lots of cd's (500+). SOme of them only listened one time. Had to throw away a lot of them because of cd-rot, recently. Still, lot of discs not listened too. Maybe they seem to be bad too. My masters are on discs in SHN and audio. I am afraid i have to re-do the mastering again in 1, 2 years.

WHAT CAN I DO to keep recordings error-free for (ever?). The masters is no real prob as they are on minidisc. But what about the tons i downloaded from the net.

I assume DVD will have the same problem with cd-rot als cdr's, right? SO, all i can do is buy big harddrives and put all stuff there?

Help, i am despared

[Brian Skalinder]

WHAT CAN I DO to keep recordings error-free for (ever?). The masters is no real prob as they are on minidisc. But what about the tons i downloaded from the net.

I assume DVD will have the same problem with cd-rot als cdr's, right? SO, all i can do is buy big harddrives and put all stuff there?

Forever?  Nothing.  Reality:  you're going to lose recordings due to a variety of reasons - faulty media, damaged media, fire, flood, just plain lost, you name it.  Not the end of the world.

Any backup solution has disadvantages, and HD is no exeption.  If you plan on using HD for long-term storage, definitely use a RAID config.  Personally, for my own masters, I burn [1] SHN/FLAC to CD/DVD, [2] audio to CD, and [3] distribute via BT or archive.org (sharing your recordings is the probably best way to ensure they're available in the future).  Music I download:  I don't bother anymore.  I got it once, I can always get it again.  And frankly, if I only listen to it once, I don't care if I have it 10 years from now (unless it's my master).

[Sean Gallemore]

multiple HDDs?

[Humbug]

I've not 'lost' any CDs (yet), and as I'm a JB3 'taper' I have no media.

I 'backup' in 4 ways:

1. Tracked Audio
2. Tracked FLAC + text file (which is often Bit Torrented)
3. Untracked FLAC with CD Wave cue sheet

All on the best CDR media I can get hold of (currently Kodak Silver/Gold)

4: Seed as many shows as possible so that there are copies all over the world. This method, of course is the least reliable..

[Popmarter]

Thanks for the comments. It's not really the masters i am afraid of as they are relative small in numbers (40 shows?) and on MD anyway. I burn them to SHN/Flac with txt and one in audio. It's with the older shows. it's not that i listen to them every day (hell, no) , but just throwing it away, is not really my thing. I still have 300+ cassettes somewhere in a box.

Most of my stuff is from U2 and, indeed, is easier to get again. However there are also some 'rare' things from bands that only a few are intrested in. Maybe, when i buy a new pc', i go for the HD option and only save the best things on them.

btw, how about Zipdrives. aren't they cheaper/better than harddisks?

[Ed.]

if you burn stuff on on TY brand disc - they have a longer shelf life.  don't write on the cds with marker or a sharpie.  don't put post-its on the cd.  and try not to buy plain silvers cuz they flake easier than other ones.

also, dvd media is supposed to be higher quality.  it has to undergo more rigorous testing than cd media.  if you follow the same rules about post-it notes and writing on them, and keep them in a cool dry place - i'm almost positive you can get 10-15 years out of them.

i have some cdrs that are about 6-7 years old and they still work great and i've beaten the hell out of 'em.

[Roamer]

Hard drives might fail with time, even MDs have a life expectancy of about 10 years from what I heard, Zip Drives will have problems over time (and I think it's going to be a dying technology anyway ... Check that link for your ZIPs: http://www.grc.com/tip/clickdeath.htm ). So as suggested by others, make different backups of important things, and take care of them.

[Sean Gallemore]

that's why brian and I suggest multiple hard drives

[Brian Skalinder]

I've seen it mentioned before, and Doug just brought it up again over on the Oade board:  if you're archiving your masters to CD/DVD, archive them as WAV files on data CD/DVD, not FLAC/SHN.

Why?  While it takes up more space, you'll lose less data in the event of a damaged disc.  Something I keep meaning to start doing, but haven't because I keep forgetting about it!

[bagtagsell]

cd rot?
*panics*
I started convincing myself about a year ago to back up on a hd.  So far I have all my new stuff backed up,  but it is hard job.  HD are dirt cheap right now.  And raid 1 config will write the data to both drives.  I have gone for the external idea.  I have more faith in my hd, then in me losing, scratching or otherwise destroying my cds.  Plus this saves on media.

[thierryhenry]

Multiple HD's is my answer.

[Popmarter]

I dont get the suggestion in making backups in WAV......

Multiple hd for my masters really seem the option, but before that i guess i'll have to consider what to collect, or if i really would like to collect 1000 of concerts anymore. 

Subject change!! ,,Have you ever thrown away 50+ cd's just because they are crap, you dont listen to them, or just because the cdr is from strange manufacture"? 
Feels a bit like throwing a belt away that you have worn for 15 years...

[heath]

if you are archiving to hard drives, be sure to fire up the drives at LEAST once a month.  In doing some research for this at work (we work closely with the BMG and Universal archives) I have found that one of the first things to go on Hard Drives is the mechanical parts.  Spinning the drives up on a regular basis keeps them "exercised" and healthy. 

The system we are working on now with Universal is similar to a RAID array, and it is a self-diagnosing, self-healing system involving many drives all holding the same data that constantly scan themselves for errors,and correct if necessary.  Really cool concept--almost like a living archive machine!

[Chanher]

I started blindly archiving .shn's on cheap generic cd-r's up to four years ago.  I am currently in the process of renovating my collection and I got a huge cd-rot panic.  I grabbed a huge selection of random archived .shn's from different cd-r manufacturers and I copied all .shn's and ran the .md5s.  I was pleasantly surprised to have a 100% succes rate. I tested brand's like office depot, maxell, memorx, a lot of imations, pny, and some plain generics.  I think they have survived for two resaons:

1. storage medium: I use paper sleeves for EACH disc, and while jewl's are better, I think as long as you keep dust out and minimize contact you're increasing chances of a healthy disc. also, the discs and their sleeves are arranged in wooden crate so they NEVER get moved around or touched unless I'm accessing one of them.

2. storage location: for the last four years these discs have been stored in my parents Colorado basement.  It NEVER gets too hot, it sometimes gets a little cold, and you all know how dry Colorado is.

this gave me confidence that I should be able to hold out until HD's are huge, cheap, and reliable. or another storage option becomes available.

[Brian Skalinder]

I dont get the suggestion in making backups in WAV......

Because if you have a scratched CD/DVD, it'll impact less data in WAV as it isn't compressed.  Say we have an audio file of a given length that takes up this amount of space stored in WAV on a CD/DVD:

[------------------------------------------------]   WAV file

Now, we compress it with FLAC/SHN, and the same WAV data now takes up this amount of space stored in FLAC/SHN on a CD/DVD:

[----------------------]   FLAC/SHN of the above WAV, all the data, just stored in a smaller space

Now, we get a scratch on our CD/DVD in the location on which this file is stored.  The scratch is this wide:

[------------------------------------]   Scratch

As you can see by laying the WAV and scratch next to each other, the scratch impacts a certain length of the audio file:

[------------------------------------------------]  WAV

[------------------------------------]   Scratch

Comparing the same scratch against the FLAC/SHN file (which, remember, contains ALL the audio in the WAV file):

[----------------------]   FLAC/SHN

[------------------------------------]   Scratch

As you can see, while the scracth on the WAV data CD/DVD doesn't impact the entire WAV file, the scratch on the FLAC/SHN CD/DVD impacts the entire FLAC/SHN file, and by extension the complete WAV file compressed within the FLAC/SHN file.  Furthermore, if there's another file written next to the FLAC/SHN file, the scratch will affect it, too (in this case partially):

[----------------------]+[-----------------------]   FLAC/SHN + another FLAC/SHN file

[------------------------------------]   Scratch

So the same scratch on a WAV data CD/DVD damages less data than on a FLAC/SHN data CD/DVD.  Make sense?

i guess i'll have to consider what to collect, or if i really would like to collect 1000 of concerts anymore. 

Yeah, I made a decision to archive only my personal masters or truly stunning, outstanding recordings/performances.

Subject change!! ,,Have you ever thrown away 50+ cd's just because they are crap, you dont listen to them

Yup.  Purged a whole boatload of 'em when I moved.  Had grand plans to give 'em away, but...ran out of time before moving.

[pfife]

I put a bunch of CD-r's in a plastic bag, and left them outside a record store in town...

they had to go.

[highwayjill]

i started out trading spindles of audio discs for spindles of blanks... then moved on to 2 spindles of audio discs for 1 spindle of blanks, and i still have a shitload of discs that i'll never listen to... i listen to everythign on my computer, so audio discs are pretty much useless to me now...

anyone interested in a spindle of trey summer 02 shows?

[Ed.]

HD DVD's will be appearing by the end of 2005.  nec and toshiba will be selling players and recorders...i forgot the specs but they'll be able to hold tons more than a normal dvd can.  i guess as things keep getting bigger and better and if you keep upgrading your collection with the upgrades, you can stay on top of the situation.

[drufus]

hd-dvd are on their way now, toshiba is on slashdot.com today about using the HD-DVDs in their new line of laptops en route to the world, i love the idea of the blue-ray dvds holding 50GB of data. I started with Zip 100s then CDR and CDRWs then lost faith in plastic media. anything beyond 2 years is a miracle aside from the $20 single CDRs from ages ago. I keep my jewels on a pair of 150GB EIDE, one maxtor, one western digital

[Karl]

I've seen it mentioned before, and Doug just brought it up again over on the Oade board:  if you're archiving your masters to CD/DVD, archive them as WAV files on data CD/DVD, not FLAC/SHN.

Why?  While it takes up more space, you'll lose less data in the event of a damaged disc.  Something I keep meaning to start doing, but haven't because I keep forgetting about it!

Here's an improvement on that idea.  Since FLAC only takes up about a third the space of WAV, why not burn double backups of FLAC?  Here's why--in the event that an error on the disc does happen, you'll have a second disc where it's extremely unlikely that an error would've occured on the same spot of data (lightning never strikes in the same spot twice).  With the WAV idea, you will lose some data (though less than a single FLAC), but with burning double FLAC then you will have lost no data.  And in the event that both FLAC backups have lost data, you can combine the two into one errorless file.  Also, in the end you will end up using less discs than burning to WAV.  Even better, you can store the second backup in a second location, so if you have flood/fire damage in one place, you still have your other set of backups.

Thoughts?

[zhianosatch]

I've seen it mentioned before, and Doug just brought it up again over on the Oade board:  if you're archiving your masters to CD/DVD, archive them as WAV files on data CD/DVD, not FLAC/SHN.

Why?  While it takes up more space, you'll lose less data in the event of a damaged disc.  Something I keep meaning to start doing, but haven't because I keep forgetting about it!

Here's an improvement on that idea.  Since FLAC only takes up about a third the space of WAV, why not burn double backups of FLAC?  Here's why--in the event that an error on the disc does happen, you'll have a second disc where it's extremely unlikely that an error would've occured on the same spot of data (lightning never strikes in the same spot twice).  With the WAV idea, you will lose some data (though less than a single FLAC), but with burning double FLAC then you will have lost no data.  And in the event that both FLAC backups have lost data, you can combine the two into one errorless file.  Also, in the end you will end up using less discs than burning to WAV.  Even better, you can store the second backup in a second location, so if you have flood/fire damage in one place, you still have your other set of backups.

Thoughts?

there's the ticket.
if even one millisecond of my backup is fucked, then the entire backup is fucked. archiving wav files would make a scratch/bad spot/whatever less harmful to the backup, true; but any harm is a complete failure. imho.

[drufus]

love your recordings but should you love your recordings?
i spend enough in utilities bills and hardware on a hard drive farm, is keeping a double-maufactured vaccum sealed archive stored under the bunker at camp david going to be enough