Topic: Sony PCM-M10 vs Edirol R-09HR

[fmaderjr]

I believe if you go mic in with power off you get more gain from the recorder than if you went line in (assuming a battery box is adequately powering the mics. If recording something very loud). With some recorders you have more chance of overloading the recorder's pre when recording something loud mic in, but all reports are that the M10's mic in is very resistant to overload (at low sensitivity).

With a 24 bit recorder, but don't need to worry much about how good the limiter is. You can record aiming for peaks about -12 dB or so and boost noiselessly in post. That way the limiter should never kick in. Do not set your levels too high (peaking at -2 to -4) because if the band suddenly plays louder your levels will go over 0 dB (or would if the limiter were off) and you'll be at the mercy of how the limiter operates. Limiters are really not that important in a 24 bit recorder. Just record at levels that are conservative. 24 bit recordings can be boosted with much less addes noise than 16 bit recording could.

The low sensitivity mod is a 4.7 Ohm resistor placed appropriately in the mic's mini-plug. It is necessary because the 853 were designed by AT to be run on phantom power and distort when converted to run on plug in power and used to record very loud sources. Chris Church invented it but it is likely to be more expensive from him because you have to pay shipping to & from Canada. I'm guessing it would cost $25-$35 plus shipping to have Sound Professionals do it. I'm not saying they do it better, just that they are probably cheaper due to postage.

[mattmiller]

I have both of these units and have decided to keep the M10 and sell the R-09HR (it's in the Yard Sale now).  Obviously, I like the M10 a little better overall, which is why I'm keeping it.  But there are several things that I like better about the R-09HR.

1.  I like the R-09HR's menu system better.  It seems on the M10 that I'm having to click a couple of menus deep to get to a lot of the things I need to get to.
2.  I like the R-09HR's button layout better.  Especially when navigating in the menus, the UP and DOWN buttons are centered on top of (and below, respectively) the ENTER (record) button.  My fingers are much faster with this than on the M10.  I can blindly navigate while looking at the screen.  On the M10, the UP and DOWN keys are staggered, and the ENTER key is somewhere else, which makes it a lot slower to move around in the menus.
3.  I like the rubbery-style grip of the R-09HR.  I'm certainly not going to test it, but it seems like it could absorb a fall from a small height a lot better than the M10.
4.  I like the input level control on the R-09HR better.  With the button controls on the side, I can change the levels with one hand while the device is sitting on a table (or at the SBD, for example).  With the M10, I have to pick it up with one hand and use the other hand to dial the level up or down.  Maybe my fingers are just fat, but I can't get a grip on the dial without picking the whole thing up.  Also, when you change the input level on the R-09HR the display shows you the level as it changes.  On the M10, I have to hold a flashlight on the dial (with my teeth, since both hands are occupied) to be able to see how much I'm adjusting it.
5.  I like the R-09HR's WIRELESS remote WITH input level controls.  The M10 remote is wired and doesn't include input level controls. 

While I'm on that topic -- regarding the noise that some people report when changing levels on the R-09HR -- is that only when adjusting the levels via the buttons on the side?  Is there noise when adjusting the levels via the wireless remote?

That all said, I like not having to change batteries every night with the M10, and I like having the HOLD button on the side, rather than having to flip it over like on the R-09HR.

[fmaderjr]

I like the input level control on the R-09HR better.  With the button controls on the side, I can change the levels with one hand while the device is sitting on a table (or at the SBD, for example).  With the M10, I have to pick it up with one hand and use the other hand to dial the level up or down.  Maybe my fingers are just fat, but I can't get a grip on the dial without picking the whole thing up.  Also, when you change the input level on the R-09HR the display shows you the level as it changes.  On the M10, I have to hold a flashlight on the dial (with my teeth, since both hands are occupied) to be able to see how much I'm adjusting it.

I like the M10's level control much better because it adds no noise to the recording. The HR's contol adds very unpleasant noise, so you have to be sure to change it where it can be edited out, like during applause. During the show I don't really need to see the numbers on the record level adjustment wheel-I just go by the VU meter, so I never even thought about that and I always pick up a machine to change levels, so I never thought about that either.

[mattmiller]

I like the M10's level control much better because it adds no noise to the recording.

I haven't personally witnessed the noise, but I don't doubt that it's there if I were to listen closely enough.  But -- absent of any flaw in the execution of it -- I like the push-button controls on a device this small rather than the tiny dial that I have trouble getting any traction on with my fingers (without picking up the recorder and using two fingers to spin the dial).

[fmaderjr]

It's amazing how different the features that are important to each of us in a given piece of equipment can be, isn't it?

The noise is really obvious if you change levels during the music. If you change levels with a pre it's no problem of course and if you change during applause it's easily edited out even if you hear it. The first time I used my HR I changed levels a number of clicks during a song and couldn't believe the noise it made.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

It's a rare thing when I change levels during music, even when I'm using a silent pre-amp.  It requires a lot less post work to smooth things out when it's done during applause..

I use a pre-amp, and always run my r09 at the same gain.  So even if it made noise when the gain is changed, it would be a non-issue.  The aerco, unlike the v3, makes pretty horrendous noise when changing gain, so changing during the music is just not an option.

I do find the ability to change gain in fixed amounts (stepped or buttons) essential - I need to be able to change gain without exposing the pre or or recorder.

[fmaderjr]

It's a rare thing when I change levels during music, even when I'm using a silent pre-amp.  It requires a lot less post work to smooth things out when it's done during applause..

I do the same thing almost without fail (usually with a pre). That particular time my initial levels were way off and I was afraid of distortion.

[guysonic]

The potential for audible 'zipper noise' reported occurring with Edirol R-09/HR models varies because it's caused by a DC offset voltage being generated inside the Codec IC.   This offset voltage varies with each same part number Codec IC as the manufacturer of the IC, and Edirol seem not specifying what offset range cause audible effects. 

The result is some R-09HR devices do not have this issue, and some more or less do have this noise.  Using line input should avoid this sound altogether.

FWIW most all these small recorders have two mic input gain choices.  For what I know about this dating back to the early 80's portables, ONLY the 'LOW or 20 dB' mic input sensitivity setting is truly a best choice for most all types of important-for-low-distortion audio quality purposes.   The 'HIGH or 0 dB" setting tries way too hard to push the gain of the first mic amp gain reducing both the low bass/high frequency response bandwidth, and audibly increases the distortion.

If needing more gain (not often a requirement if recording in 24 bit) go line in with a good designed external preamplifier to keep recording quality optimized.   I have smaller than smallest deck external preamplifier models offering higher than internal mic amp optimum gain without the mentioned audio quality issues.  See these here: www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#micamp

Recording in 24 bit as suggested here, even with REC level manual adjustment at maximum eliminates the need for more gain as post edit software allows 24 bit depth masters excellent loudness adjustment at full (audible) quality even if recording level was at or below <-20 dB FS VU.

Choosing the best model for you between M10 and R-09HR depends on personal usage purposes. 
For me, I’d find having both indispensable with the M10 ability to directly power my DSM mics perfectly, and having exceptionally quiet mic input the best model for carrying everywhere.  The M10 running in 24 bit/44.1K or 48K configured as a 2-piece long running system is my choice for most ambient sounds/casual live music recording purposes.  Most often used with my small point & shoot Panasonic Lumix DMC –ZS3 operating in HD video mode for sound and picture adventure documenting as shown below:

Also See: http://www.sonicstudios.com/videomic.htm
The R-09HR is, for me, given more limited use exclusively in 24 bit/88.2K mode not available on the M10, and line-level fed from external PA-3SX or PA-24 preamplifier. R09HR’s mic preamplifier has way more digital noise coloration than M10 unless being fed LINE input by quality preamplifier; See graphs below showing M10 and R-09HR noise.




R-09HR seems to have a little bit more very low frequency bandwidth extension than M10’s line input. 
As such, I use this mic+R-09HR+preamp configuration for occasional more professional music sessions meant for eventual CD/DVD-Audio release benefiting from the higher frequency bandwidth at fully compatible CD 88.2K-to-44.1K-integer conversion rate.

[fmaderjr]

The potential for audible 'zipper noise' reported occurring with Edirol R-09/HR models varies because it's caused by a DC offset voltage being generated inside the Codec IC.   This offset voltage varies with each same part number Codec IC as the manufacturer of the IC, and Edirol seem not specifying what offset range cause audible effects. 

This is great to know. I do appreciate the technical info you contribute here.

The result is some R-09HR devices do not have this issue, and some more or less do have this noise.  Using line input should avoid this sound altogether.

I get horrible noise with mine line in.


If needing more gain (not often a requirement if recording in 24 bit) go line in with a good designed external preamplifier to keep recording quality optimized.   I have smaller than smallest deck external preamplifier models offering higher than internal mic amp optimum gain without the mentioned audio quality issues.  See these here: www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#micamp

Come on, guy. I'm sure your amps are great for your DSM mics, but you designed them to produce the proper plug in power for DSM's, not the typical mini-mic that requires 5-9 volts of PIP. It seems that a tinybox or ST-9100 would be a far cheaper and better solution for non DSM mics. Wouldn't you need a battery box to power most non DSM mics when using your preamp? And couldn't there be problems using 2 devices providing PIP? Please explain if I'm mistaken.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

R-09HR seems to have a little bit more very low frequency bandwidth extension than M10’s line input. 
As such, I use this mic+R-09HR+preamp configuration for occasional more professional music sessions meant for eventual CD/DVD-Audio release benefiting from the higher frequency bandwidth at fully compatible CD 88.2K-to-44.1K-integer conversion rate.

Interesting... I'd heard that about the D50, and always wondered about the m10.   Is that something you have measured?

[guysonic]

If needing more gain (not often a requirement if recording in 24 bit) go line in with a good designed external preamplifier to keep recording quality optimized.   I have smaller than smallest deck external preamplifier models offering higher than internal mic amp optimum gain without the mentioned audio quality issues.  See these here: www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#micamp

Come on, guy. I'm sure your amps are great for your DSM mics, but you designed them to produce the proper plug in power for DSM's, not the typical mini-mic that requires 5-9 volts of PIP. It seems that a tinybox or ST-9100 would be a far cheaper and better solution for non DSM mics. Wouldn't you need a battery box to power most non DSM mics when using your preamp? And couldn't there be problems using 2 devices providing PIP? Please explain if I'm mistaken.

My preamps are specifically meant to ONLY power DSM mics and no other.   While my compact preamps may be used with other (self or external module powered) mics, the suggestion  "If needing more gain (not often a requirement if recording in 24 bit) go line in with a good designed external preamplifier to keep recording quality optimized"  meant ANY preamplifier of your choice; sorry to not be more clear about this.

R-09HR seems to have a little bit more very low frequency bandwidth extension than M10’s line input. 
As such, I use this mic+R-09HR+preamp configuration for occasional more professional music sessions meant for eventual CD/DVD-Audio release benefiting from the higher frequency bandwidth at fully compatible CD 88.2K-to-44.1K-integer conversion rate.

Interesting... I'd heard that about the D50, and always wondered about the m10.   Is that something you have measured?

Measured M10 LINE input -3dB to be ~15 cycles where usual measured for other Sony and Edirol is ~7 Hz.  Not a big deal, but a difference nontheless.

[swordfish]

I believe if you go mic in with power off you get more gain from the recorder than if you went line in (assuming a battery box is adequately powering the mics. If recording something very loud). With some recorders you have more chance of overloading the recorder's pre when recording something loud mic in, but all reports are that the M10's mic in is very resistant to overload (at low sensitivity).

With a 24 bit recorder, but don't need to worry much about how good the limiter is. You can record aiming for peaks about -12 dB or so and boost noiselessly in post. That way the limiter should never kick in. Do not set your levels too high (peaking at -2 to -4) because if the band suddenly plays louder your levels will go over 0 dB (or would if the limiter were off) and you'll be at the mercy of how the limiter operates. Limiters are really not that important in a 24 bit recorder. Just record at levels that are conservative. 24 bit recordings can be boosted with much less addes noise than 16 bit recording could.

The low sensitivity mod is a 4.7 Ohm resistor placed appropriately in the mic's mini-plug. It is necessary because the 853 were designed by AT to be run on phantom power and distort when converted to run on plug in power and used to record very loud sources. Chris Church invented it but it is likely to be more expensive from him because you have to pay shipping to & from Canada. I'm guessing it would cost $25-$35 plus shipping to have Sound Professionals do it. I'm not saying they do it better, just that they are probably cheaper due to postage.

Wanted to ask which software you use to boost the recording noiselessly in post.....since I use cool edit and I guess it does not support 24 bit....I received soundforge with the M10....are there tuition links on the web....any good shareware out.

Sorry for all the questions...I am kinda slow once in a while.

SF

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Wanted to ask which software you use to boost the recording noiselessly in post.....since I use cool edit and I guess it does not support 24 bit....I received soundforge with the M10....are there tuition links on the web....any good shareware out.

Sorry for all the questions...I am kinda slow once in a while.

SF

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=117279.0

[Brian Skalinder]

Wanted to ask which software you use to boost the recording noiselessly in post.....since I use cool edit and I guess it does not support 24 bit....

CEP / Audition supports 24-bit.  The thread Freelunch posted includes a link to a discussion of CEP / Audition and 24-bit.