Topic: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???

[PH]

I'll agree with Brian here. A few outspoken tapers decided that the V3 wasn't up to snuff and the rest of the bandwagon joined in.
You aren't going to find a better portable unit period.

I understand the all in one thing, but having actually used my ears before making a decision, I can honestly say the V3 has better overall sound than any of it's competition, such the 722, 744, R4, V2, etc...  That being said, nothing substitues for convenience and the all in one 4 trackers have *enough* quality to warrant leaving the V3 at home. So, I see why the trend is obviously headed that direction. I have an R4 and I usually leave the V3 at home so I can do a matrix. I'm happy *enough* with the pre's in that for most live applications.

I sold my V2 and immediately regretted it. The best 2 tracks I ever made were with the V2>AD2K combo that I ran for a few years. Lot's of gear, but the sweetest tones.

It would be cool to see Grace and Oade work together to create a badass 4 track machine with the best of both teams present.

[jerryfreak]

I sold my V2 and immediately regretted it. The best 2 tracks I ever made were with the V2>AD2K combo that I ran for a few years. Lot's of gear, but the sweetest tones.

I cant speak for your v2, but your ad2k is getting put to good use and still making sweet sweet tapes!

[eric.B]

I can't compare the v2 vs. the v3 in terms of their preamps as I have never run a comparison myself, however I do own both units.  Im having a dilemma as to which of the two to get rid of to move up to a new recording device.  Whatcha thinK?   Will spdf bit buckets continue to be produced?  Will smaller (ala mt2496) bit buckets be produced in the future that are reliable and not quirky? Will smaller, viable line in, recorders get better?

My point is..  I like the grace preamps in both units (as to which is better I dont know) and I do like the v3 adc, but Im not going to keep the v3 if I can't buy a great *small* bit bucket that is 100% SEEMLESS in the future.( not withstanding the crazy priced sonosax units)   And Im not going to keep the v2 if it is thought that I cant buy a small seemless great line in machine.  Maybe the korg units are in my future, maybe the fr2 if indeed it sounds great as an all-in-one box with mods(or without) AND a superb line in feature.  The last sentence leads me to keeping the v2 then using it when I run a full rig, then running an all-in-one when I dont feel like carrying around the extra gear. 

I usually dont write posts like this whereas Im debating on what to do.. but this one has me stumped..

[ts]

<The last sentence leads me to keeping the v2 then using it when I run a full rig, then running an all-in-one when I dont feel like carrying around the extra gear.>

I've kept my V3 for this reason only. I like to run a full rig outdoors and even indoors when space permits. That means carrying the V3 and full bodied mics, 13 foot stand, etc. It also allows for easily accomodating a few patchers who tend to show up in large numbers at bigger shows. But for small indoor shows or any fob situation, nothing beats a good all-in-one, 722 and some actives.

[manitouman]

Very informative thread here and since I've been pondering which of the Lunatecs to get it has helped me a bunch.

So, if I understand this correctly: I can run mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder. This would bypass the V3's analog to digital converter (ADC), correct?

On other occasions, I can run mics>V3>digital out>MTII s/pdif. Basically I would use the MTII as just a bit bucket, correct?

In the same above scenarios, if I was using the V2, I just would not have the option of "digital out", correct?

One more...In the V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder scenario: the 7XX would not be just a bit bucket it would actually still use it's own preamp & ADC? But because I'm also running the V3 preamp it is getting a different flavor than just mics>SD 7XX.

Okay, one more...Can I run: mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder ~AND~ mics>the same V3>digital out>bit bucket (MTII in my case), at the same time? Is this what giving a patch would be like?

Last one...since the mics are running into the V3 first, do I supply the phantom power via the V3 or the SD 7XX? Just for confirmation purposes, I'm assuming the V3 supplys the phantom power to the mics.

Am I on the right track here? Thanks for the help. I've been itchin' to slut it up a little. 

[audBall]

So, if I understand this correctly: I can run mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder. This would bypass the V3's analog to digital converter (ADC), correct?

Correct

On other occasions, I can run mics>V3>digital out>MTII s/pdif. Basically I would use the MTII as just a bit bucket, correct?

Correct

In the same above scenarios, if I was using the V2, I just would not have the option of "digital out", correct?

Correct

One more...In the V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder scenario: the 7XX would not be just a bit bucket it would actually still use it's own preamp & ADC? But because I'm also running the V3 preamp it is getting a different flavor than just mics>SD 7XX.

I'm pretty sure you're running line-in and bypassing the preamp section of 7xx.

Okay, one more...Can I run: mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder ~AND~ mics>the same V3>digital out>bit bucket (MTII in my case), at the same time? Is this what giving a patch would be like?

Yep.

Last one...since the mics are running into the V3 first, do I supply the phantom power via the V3 or the SD 7XX? Just for confirmation purposes, I'm assuming the V3 supplys the phantom power to the mics.

Only the V3's phantom power would need to be turned on. 

Am I on the right track here? Thanks for the help. I've been itchin' to slut it up a little. 

Have fun!

[JasonSobel]

edit to add:
it looks like AudBall beat me to the reply, but I'll leave my answers here as well, for reference.

So, if I understand this correctly: I can run mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder. This would bypass the V3's analog to digital converter (ADC), correct?

yes, running analog out of the V3 would bypass the V3's A/D converter.  In fact, you can actually turn off the V3's A/D converter and save some battery life (~1000mA draw with A/D vs ~700mA draw without the A/D).

On other occasions, I can run mics>V3>digital out>MTII s/pdif. Basically I would use the MTII as just a bit bucket, correct?

yes, the MTII would be just a "bit bucket" because all it would do is record the digital data from the S/PDIF stream.  the MTII would no t impart any sound of its own.

In the same above scenarios, if I was using the V2, I just would not have the option of "digital out", correct?

that is correct.  the V2 has no internal A/D and thus no digital output.

One more...In the V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder scenario: the 7XX would not be just a bit bucket it would actually still use it's own preamp & ADC? But because I'm also running the V3 preamp it is getting a different flavor than just mics>SD 7XX.

when you run V3 > analog out > SD 7xx, the 7xx would not be just a bit bucket, because you will be using the 7XX's A/D converter.  You can set the analog input to "line-in".  While I'm not 100% sure of the internal circuit path of the 7xx when you switch it to Line-in, the gain range will be -6dB to +18dB, which is much better when using an external pre-amp for gain.  (for reference, when using the 7xx analog input set to mic in, you have a choice in gain range either 20-70dB or 0-50dB, "normal" or "low", respectively.

Okay, one more...Can I run: mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder ~AND~ mics>the same V3>digital out>bit bucket (MTII in my case), at the same time? Is this what giving a patch would be like?

absolutely.  you can run both the analog and digital outputs from the V3 at the same time.  for giving out a patch, it depends on the situation.  if someone else has a 24 bit capable recorder, you can give them a patch right out of your 722.  the advantage with giving a patch out of the V3's digital output is that you could record V3 > analog > 7XX at whatever quality you want to (say 24 bit / 96 kHz as an example), and then you can independently set the V3's A/D to whatever quality you want, 16 bit, 24 bit, and whatever sample rate, completely independent from whatever you have the 7XX set to.

Last one...since the mics are running into the V3 first, do I supply the phantom power via the V3 or the SD 7XX? Just for confirmation purposes, I'm assuming the V3 supplys the phantom power to the mics.

the V3 will supply the phantom power.  it would be bad and could potentially damage the V3 if you turned on the 7XX's phantom power as well.

[audBall]

 

[manitouman]

Thanks for the great info!

[Todd R]

Good deal on getting the V3!

BTW, the other thing to know is you can easily do a 4ch recording using the V3 clock with the rig you've got.  Run 2ch, say mics for example, into the V3 and then digital out to the MT to record these channels.  Then run another one of the V3's digital outputs (it has at least 1 coax/spdif and 2 AES/XLR digi outputs, plus an optical out if it is optimoded) and connect that to the 722.  At the same time, connect a second 2ch, say a board feed, into the analog XLR inputs of the 722.  In the 722 menu, select to choose "use analog inputs" or whatever it is (you have the option of choosing analog, choosing digital, or the default setting, which will default to the digi input if one is connected).

At this point, the 722 should show a "L" on the screen for lock and it will lock to the digital input of the V3, but instead of recording from that digital input it will use the analog XLRs for input while using the clock of the V3.  So now you've got 4 channels all clocked off the same V3 clock.  Makes making 4ch mixes a snap since both recorders use the same clock so they're perfectly in sync.

[SmokinJoe]

The analog output on a V3 is HOT.  When the lights flash "zero", the analog output on the V3 is +25dBu, which is too hot for the input side of a lot of devices. For instance, a stock R4 doesn't want over +4dBu with the gain all the day down, so you wouldn't want to run the meters on the V3 hotter than -21.  My R4 has been modded by Busman and apparently his changes reduces sensitivity, and now stay below -12 on the V3 LEDs (in the green).  Some people have made 25db attenuator cables so the meters on the V3 and the R4 match, but to me the idea of adding gain in the preamp and then throwing it away in the attenuators doesn't make sense.  I presume the SD7xx boxes and AD2K will take a higher input.

I mention this because:
- I'm curious if the V2 is the same in this regard.  I'm guessing it is not the same, because a taper with many years experience came over to me last night and asked why I was running the V3 so cold and adding all the gain in the R4.  When he ran his V2 > DAP1 he always ran the V2 hot...  I explained to him about the V3 hot output and and the R4 was all the way down... he looked at me like I had 3 heads.  The point is, I'm guessing his V2 and my V3 are not the same in this regard.
- It has a profound effect in the case of "can I get a digi patch and and analog patch out at the same time?"... YES you can do it, but if you have your digi bit bucket humming along at -6, your analog box is pegged, or if you reduce the gain on your V3 so as not to overdrive the analog box then you digi box is running low... it's a compromise.
- That's how it looks to me.  If I'm missing something, please let me know.

Here http://www.archive.org/details/zt2009-01-23.akg483.flac16f is a show where set 1 is V3 > analog > r4, and set 2 is V3 > digi > R4.  The V3 A/D is more "crisp" than the R4 A/D, which isn't surprising.  Which is "better" is a matter of opinion.

[shaggy]

A hell of alot of useful info here.  thanks Todd and Joe!

[pyiteac]

Having owned both boxes, I can say that I like the gain on the V3 better that the V2.  It just makes more sense to trim up than down.  I think the analogue sound of the two is too close to make an insane comparison.  I personally like the sound of the V2 better but its close.

[JasonSobel]

I presume the SD7xx boxes and AD2K will take a higher input.

I mention this because:
- I'm curious if the V2 is the same in this regard.  I'm guessing it is not the same, because a taper with many years experience came over to me last night and asked why I was running the V3 so cold and adding all the gain in the R4.  When he ran his V2 > DAP1 he always ran the V2 hot...  I explained to him about the V3 hot output and and the R4 was all the way down... he looked at me like I had 3 heads.  The point is, I'm guessing his V2 and my V3 are not the same in this regard.
- It has a profound effect in the case of "can I get a digi patch and and analog patch out at the same time?"... YES you can do it, but if you have your digi bit bucket humming along at -6, your analog box is pegged, or if you reduce the gain on your V3 so as not to overdrive the analog box then you digi box is running low... it's a compromise.
- That's how it looks to me.  If I'm missing something, please let me know.

regarding how "hot" the V3 output is relative to the V2 and what other devices can handle, here are a few thoughts...

yes, when the digital meters on the V3 read 0dBfs, the balanced analog outputs are at +25dBu.  and, as with most devices, the unbalanced output is 6dB lower, which puts it at +19 dBu.  While the V3 does not have a dedicated unbalanced analog output, it is easy enough to make a set of XLR > RCA cables.

the V2 analog outputs were actually a little hotter than the V3's analog outputs.  The V2's balanced analog output maxes out at +27dBu, and the unbalanced output on the V2 is +21dBu.  and the V2 has both XLR and RCA analog outputs.

regarding what other devices can handle.  The SD 7XX units, when running line in, can take a max signal of +26dBu.  but that is running line-in at -6dB, the min gain.  I think most people with SD units actually run line-in at 0dB (again, because it's better not to add gain to a signal just to attenuate it later).  at 0dB line-in, the 722 can handle a signal of +20dBu.  So if you are running analog and digital out of the V3, the V3's digital levels will be 5dB lower than the levels on the 7XX.  not too bad.  of course, you could also run the 7XX line-in at -5dB, and the digital levels on the V3 will match exactly the levels on the 7XX.  There is more info on that in this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,80074.0.html
and based on that thread, there is this comparison of the V3's A/D vs the 722 A/D, levels matched exactly, both using the V3 pre-amp.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81297.0.html

Joe also mentioned the DA-P1 and the AD2K.  the AD2K has a sensitivity switch on the front, and at most, can handle a signal of +24dBu.  because the V3's max output is +25dBu, and recording made directly from the digital output of the V3 will only be 1dB lower than the V3 > AD2K recording.  I'm not familiar with the input of the DA-P1, so I can't comment on the V2 > DA-P1 combo that Joe mentions...

[bhadella]

I presume the SD7xx boxes and AD2K will take a higher input.

I mention this because:
- I'm curious if the V2 is the same in this regard.  I'm guessing it is not the same, because a taper with many years experience came over to me last night and asked why I was running the V3 so cold and adding all the gain in the R4.  When he ran his V2 > DAP1 he always ran the V2 hot...  I explained to him about the V3 hot output and and the R4 was all the way down... he looked at me like I had 3 heads.  The point is, I'm guessing his V2 and my V3 are not the same in this regard.
- It has a profound effect in the case of "can I get a digi patch and and analog patch out at the same time?"... YES you can do it, but if you have your digi bit bucket humming along at -6, your analog box is pegged, or if you reduce the gain on your V3 so as not to overdrive the analog box then you digi box is running low... it's a compromise.
- That's how it looks to me.  If I'm missing something, please let me know.

regarding how "hot" the V3 output is relative to the V2 and what other devices can handle, here are a few thoughts...

yes, when the digital meters on the V3 read 0dBfs, the balanced analog outputs are at +25dBu.  and, as with most devices, the unbalanced output is 6dB lower, which puts it at +19 dBu.  While the V3 does not have a dedicated unbalanced analog output, it is easy enough to make a set of XLR > RCA cables.

the V2 analog outputs were actually a little hotter than the V3's analog outputs.  The V2's balanced analog output maxes out at +27dBu, and the unbalanced output on the V2 is +21dBu.  and the V2 has both XLR and RCA analog outputs.

regarding what other devices can handle.  The SD 7XX units, when running line in, can take a max signal of +26dBu.  but that is running line-in at -6dB, the min gain.  I think most people with SD units actually run line-in at 0dB (again, because it's better not to add gain to a signal just to attenuate it later).  at 0dB line-in, the 722 can handle a signal of +20dBu.  So if you are running analog and digital out of the V3, the V3's digital levels will be 5dB lower than the levels on the 7XX.  not too bad.  of course, you could also run the 7XX line-in at -5dB, and the digital levels on the V3 will match exactly the levels on the 7XX.  There is more info on that in this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,80074.0.html
and based on that thread, there is this comparison of the V3's A/D vs the 722 A/D, levels matched exactly, both using the V3 pre-amp.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81297.0.html

Joe also mentioned the DA-P1 and the AD2K.  the AD2K has a sensitivity switch on the front, and at most, can handle a signal of +24dBu.  because the V3's max output is +25dBu, and recording made directly from the digital output of the V3 will only be 1dB lower than the V3 > AD2K recording.  I'm not familiar with the input of the DA-P1, so I can't comment on the V2 > DA-P1 combo that Joe mentions...

Same goes for the R44 as explained above in regards to the 722.  It will take the full V3 analog signal (up to the point of digital clipping on the V3's A/D output) without clipping.