Topic: New Digital Mics

[BWolf]

So I noticed the other day when looking through the new Full Compass catalog that there was a section for new Neumann digital mics.  Look pretty cool.  The A/D is actually in the mic, with a controller box that allows for multiple bit rates/sample rates and the output of the mic is a digital AES signal.  Two digital mic types have been introduced, the KM D series is basically the 180 mic in digital form (with 7 polar pattern coming soon), and the D-01 LD mic.  The price on these sucker is really high right now, but it could come down with more companies getting into the market.  Look pretty interesting.  Anyone know anything about them?  Ever used them?  Any recordings made from them for a sample?

The KM D Mic: http://www.neumann.com/?lang=en&id=current_microphones&cid=kmd_description
The D-01 Mic: http://www.neumann.com/?lang=en&id=current_microphones&cid=d01_description



Listed Features:

Extremely wide dynamic range: more than 130 dB
Neumann A/D conversion process
Pre-amps and external A/D converter are no longer necessary
Wide range of new functions through integrated digital signal processing
Control and monitoring of all microphone parameters and functions through Remote Control Software

Digital Microphone
A/D Converter, optimized for direct conversion of the capsule signal
New capsule design
Additional DSP functions
Limiter (incl. de-esser)
All parameters and functions remote controllable

Digital Microphone Interface
AES 42-2001 to AES/EBU conversion
Reliable synchronization through new PLL process
2 channels (8 channel version planned), cascadable
Phantom powering
Word clock in and out
Integrated word clock generator

Remote Control Software
Control and monitoring of all parameters
DSP function control
Peak level meter
Gain reduction bargraph for limiter
Save, copy, and recall for complete setups

[leehookem]

hmm

[THE NIZ BIAAAAACH!]

I'm pretty sure schoeps has a pair also, they are not yet to market but are caller the cmd 2U  and can be used with the standard collete capsul there is a spec sheet and owners manual under the "news"  section at the schoeps website.

[joekar]

Looks sweet......as soon as I win the lottery I'll grab a pair......I bet they will cost a pretty penny.....


Peace,
jk

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

$1 says its AC powered...

But looks really cool!

Terry

Wow!!!  Edit, who wants my $1!!!




I have a woody...




And 24/96 capable... I'm selling my left kidney...

Terry

[stirinthesauce]

I'll take analog, thanks very much. Mics are too pricy to date them with adc technology.
Analog will always be analog, and digital will always be outdated.

I agree with Mike on this.  Beyer made some digital mics some years ago.  They were 20 bit.  I'm sure it was cutting edge when they were out, but who wants 20 bit now?  That is so 2000   


http://www.microphone-data.com/microphone.asp?mic=631

[Nick's Picks]

same.  analog is the way to go.
I also saw in the new FC catalog some other digital mic from a different company.  prices were not included, but it looked nice.

[Cooker]

i dunno if i'm as shy on this technology as mike and nick.  sounds like a great way to eliminate a lot of gear. mics > bitbucket sounds OK in my book.

like nick would keep a pair of mics long enough for the AD to get outdated

[Nick's Picks]

good point.

why do I feel like i'm getting a reputation for being...well, "loose" ?

[stirinthesauce]

why do I feel like i'm getting a reputation for being...well, "loose" ?

 

I'll take a stab 

You have made your rounds with most all of the gear accessible today for our needs.  But not once, multiple trips around the block 

But this is not a bad thing per se, so a big +T

[rowjimmy]

Milab has gotten into the game, as well.

DM1001
Digital microphone for today's digital world
A complete digital microphone system for studio and broadcasting with computer controlled features. This microphone is based on Milab's rectangular capsule.

DETAILS •AES/EBU digital output •Rectangular dual capsule •24-bit/48kHz ADC •Rectangular dual capsule •Computer contolled filters and polar patterns

[Shawn]

there is a great thread on here where some one (john willet???) talks about using the neumann digital mics. he even had a link to an article he wrote about the recording session very interesting stuff. I tried to find it with the search feature, but couldn't.

[TNJazz]

there is a great thread on here where some one (john willet???) talks about using the neumann digital mics. he even had a link to an article he wrote about the recording session very interesting stuff. I tried to find it with the search feature, but couldn't.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81924.msg1088920.html#msg1088920

[Nick's Picks]

 

I'll take a stab 

You have made your rounds with most all of the gear accessible today for our needs.  But not once, multiple trips around the block 

But this is not a bad thing per se, so a big +T

Oh.
now I see.

[Nick's Picks]

I was thinking of these mics earlier today (almost set of the smoke alarms!)

if one mic has an AES output...how in the hell would you record in stereo w/a pair?
two decks, synched up w/AES inputs ?
no thanks.

[TNJazz]

I believe it needs its own "power supply" box, which just happens to connect via AES42.  I would imagine there's digital output on it and that they somehow can be combined to a stereo digital signal.

[BWolf]

well on the neumann page it says something like "planned arrays of up to 8 mics", but i don't know if that needs their little controller box or not...

either way, just thought it was a cool thing to check out.  in no way could i afford these, just thought it was an interesting topic. 

[Nick's Picks]

well...these were built w/the studio in mind.  and i'm sure its no trouble plugging in several AES feeds into one box...like any multi-track digital recorder.

[stirinthesauce]

 

I'll take a stab 

You have made your rounds with most all of the gear accessible today for our needs.  But not once, multiple trips around the block 

But this is not a bad thing per se, so a big +T

Oh.
now I see.

 

[Nick's Picks]

what can i say.  i'm bad w/my finances.

what would be REALLY bad would be if I kept all that stuff.  one something comes in....something goes out. 

sometimes I have to liquidate the rig for one reason or another.  its fun to rebuild.

[stirinthesauce]

what can i say.  i'm bad w/my finances.

what would be REALLY bad would be if I kept all that stuff.  one something comes in....something goes out. 

sometimes I have to liquidate the rig for one reason or another.  its fun to rebuild.

Agreed.  

[DSatz]

The problem with AES-42, as I understand it, is that each microphone has its own internal sample clock. Thus there is no simple way to synchronize a pair of digital microphones (or any larger grouping) to a common clock signal. As a result, the only practical way to record from more than one microphone at a time is to resample the bitstream from each microphone asynchronously, at the point where the signals are combined, to a common clock signal.

It's my understanding that this strategy was chosen so that for "normal," everyday lengths of cable, existing balanced analog microphone cables could be used with these digital microphones. (For lengths beyond a few hundred feet, special lower-capacitance digital cable is recommended.) That's all very nice and friendly, but it complicates the requirements for the recording equipment in an unfortunate way. Thus there aren't many options to choose from yet.

Neumann does have battery power supplies available for their KM-D microphones, but I don't think that you can combine the signals of two such microphones for stereo recording without using their AC-powered controller to reclock them.

[BWolf]

after reading the thing on the neumann website, it says you can synchronize these with the power and control box, or run them asynchronously. 

from the site:
The AES 42 standard describes two modes of synchronizing the microphone with the receiver (e.g. a mixing console or DMI-2 digital microphone interface):

Mode 1: The microphone operates asynchronously, using the sampling rate of its internal quartz oscillator. In this case, a sample rate converter is required at the receiver. However, this mode of operation should be used only if mode 2 synchronization is not possible, since conventional sample rate converters will impair the signal quality, for instance in terms of dynamic range and latency time.

Mode 2: The microphone is synchronized with a master word clock, which can be either an external word clock or the internal word clock of the DMI-2. In this case, a frequency/phase comparison of the microphone signal with the master word clock is carried out in the AES 42 receiver (DMI-2). A control signal is then generated that is transmitted via the remote control data stream to the microphone, where it controls the frequency of the internal quartz oscillator.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

[head feels all spinny]
going back in for a reread......

Use this thing with an external Word Clock for 2 mic use:

DMI-2 digital microphone interface



T

[wbrisette]

there is nothing in our field recording realm, that I know of, that will allow for stereo recording wth a pair of these, short of a fully rigged laptop.
Is there an easy interface?
I don't know, and am not going to research it, because these are so far out of consideration.

ermm.... the Deva will. It can handle 8 digital inputs.

Wayne

[BWolf]

there is nothing in our field recording realm, that I know of, that will allow for stereo recording wth a pair of these, short of a fully rigged laptop.
Is there an easy interface?
I don't know, and am not going to research it, because these are so far out of consideration.

ermm.... the Deva will. It can handle 8 digital inputs.

Wayne

yeah, as long as something can send a clock to it, all the mics will synch.  possibly a 744T.  do the deva or 744t take AES digital inputs? 

for my knowledge, what does the AES cable look like?  is it a regular XLR on one side and a coax on the other?  or is it just a regular XLR cable?

[Nick's Picks]

regular xlr looking.  the cable impedance is different though.  110ohms

[gratefulphish]

You can pick up a stero pair of the Solution Ds on B & H for only $14,999, out the door, plus shipping. Windscreens are only $58.95. 

[Nick's Picks]

and then about that much to actually use them in the field.
who here has a hollywood budget I can envy?

[John Willett]

Quite a few questions in this thread to answer.

Price - the KM-D series *with* the DMI-2 control box is about the same price as the equivalent high quality analogue microphones (eg: that works out cheaper than the equivalent Sennheiser MKH 20).

ADC - The A to D converter is 28-bit and better resolution than analogue - the output is 24-bit to AES42.

Clocking - the mics are clocked by the DMI-2 interface which controls two mics. Several of these can be cross-linked to a single clock time up to 8-channels at the moment (software is being continuously updated and updates are downloadable from the Neumann website).

Writeup is HERE

I have used them in anger for nine solid days and have found them superb.  The built-in limiter prevents clipping and there are several switchable options including a compressor.

I have the omni heads and already have my name down for the flat-omni heads when they come out.

When future equipment incorporates AES42 inputs you won't need the DMI-2.

If I missed any questions please ask again and I'll do my best.

John

[ingsy]

When future equipment incorporates AES42 inputs you won't need the DMI-2.

John

John - any info you can share about this future equipment? 

[BWolf]

ADC - The A to D converter is 28-bit and better resolution than analogue

can you explain this any further?

[Brian Skalinder]

ADC - The A to D converter is 28-bit and better resolution than analogue

can you explain this any further?

I suspect John meant better resolution than analog mics > external ADC.  Not sure, though.  Haven't read it yet, but Neumann has a publication on their documentation page discussing digital mics in general along with some specifics on the Neumann model.

[John Willett]

A 28-bit A/D actually gives better resolution and s/n than analogue (just) which is why Neumann have the patented 28-bit converter.  I think it's about 130dB whereas the theoretical maximum for an analogue stage is 128dB.

There is no reason for going digital if it's worse than analogue.

With analogue you also have to allow headroom in the mic. pre. to avoid clipping and headroom in the A/D to avoid clipping - this drops the dynamic range by about 25dB - having the A/D by the capsule gets all this back again.

The AES42 standard was developed with consultation with the mixer and DAW manufacturers as well as the microphone manufacturers.  Neumann were the first to this standard as the mixer and DAW manufacturers were reluctant to bring out equipment with AES42 inputs until there was something top plug into them.

Now that Neumann, and shortly Schoeps, have microphones available; there is no excuse for the DAW and mixer manufacturers not to start delivering equipment with AES42 inputs.

I know of one or two things in the pipeline and hope to hear of more soon - perhaps NAB and WES-Wien will provide an answer.

John

[BWolf]

so if i sell my km140s and v3 and get the digital package with converter (2 mics + the box) for $7500, is it worth it? 

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/333959.html
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/333964.html

so it would be km184D > dmi2 > bit bucket... 

or i could get D-01 package for the amount of a small car... http://www.fullcompass.com/product/288724.html

[Rick]

can the dmi2 even be ran in the field without some inverter?

[John Willett]

so if i sell my km140s and v3 and get the digital package with converter (2 mics + the box) for $7500, is it worth it? 

  It's expensive in the States 

The UK price (ex VAT) is £2,307.90 retail for a stereo pair *including* DMI-2 box.

[John Willett]

can the dmi2 even be ran in the field without some inverter?

The DMI-2 is mains only.

Neumann will be at NAB - so pressure them for a DC version

[BWolf]

so if i sell my km140s and v3 and get the digital package with converter (2 mics + the box) for $7500, is it worth it? 

  It's expensive in the States 

The UK price (ex VAT) is £2,307.90 retail for a stereo pair *including* DMI-2 box.

if thats the case, i could sell my 140s and ak20 cap and the v3 and fund the entire project.  now how do i power the DMI-2 in the field?  looks like it just takes a regular plug....  hmmmmm

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

if thats the case, i could sell my 140s and ak20 cap and the v3 and fund the entire project.  now how do i power the DMI-2 in the field?  looks like it just takes a regular plug....  hmmmmm

You need a Mr. Fusion...

I've seen folks using one of those car-starter/emergency power things:
http://tinyurl.com/2xgcac

These have AC outlets built in...

Terry

[stirinthesauce]

if thats the case, i could sell my 140s and ak20 cap and the v3 and fund the entire project.  now how do i power the DMI-2 in the field?  looks like it just takes a regular plug....  hmmmmm

You need a Mr. Fusion...

I've seen folks using one of those car-starter/emergency power things:
http://tinyurl.com/2xgcac

These have AC outlets built in...

Terry

I actually have one of those heavy ass jumpstarter car battery deals.   That thing is friggin heavy!   Lots of juice though.

[Church-Audio]

I think this whole A/D thing in the mic is cool because you can then incorporate a DSP and program the mics frequency response or at least correct it. I think it opens up new doors, and it is the future. But I dont see real practical uses for it just yet.

Because the A/D built into a professional console or stand alone converter is going to be better then any A/D you can build in to a small mic. That being said as time goes on we shrink stuff down ic's get smaller DSP's get smaller it becomes more of a reality. But the one thing that can not be ignored is all of these mics still have a analog front end that still produces noise, I for one dont want a noise gate on my mic to reduce the noise floor.

I want to be able to use a high end preamp with a microphone with very little self noise to do that. I think this technology has a great application for measurement microphones where you want a flat response and its very hard to get it so you can program it in. But for live sound or for Live recording I think the products usefulness is limited at this point in time.


Please dont flame me for my opinion

Chris

[TNJazz]

so if i sell my km140s and v3 and get the digital package with converter (2 mics + the box) for $7500, is it worth it? 

  It's expensive in the States 

The UK price (ex VAT) is £2,307.90 retail for a stereo pair *including* DMI-2 box.

if thats the case, i could sell my 140s and ak20 cap and the v3 and fund the entire project.  now how do i power the DMI-2 in the field?  looks like it just takes a regular plug....  hmmmmm

That's GBP, not USD.

[BWolf]

I think this whole A/D thing in the mic is cool because you can then incorporate a DSP and program the mics frequency response or at least correct it. I think it opens up new doors, and it is the future. But I dont see real practical uses for it just yet.

Because the A/D built into a professional console or stand alone converter is going to be better then any A/D you can build in to a small mic. That being said as time goes on we shrink stuff down ic's get smaller DSP's get smaller it becomes more of a reality. But the one thing that can not be ignored is all of these mics still have a analog front end that still produces noise, I for one dont want a noise gate on my mic to reduce the noise floor.

I want to be able to use a high end preamp with a microphone with very little self noise to do that. I think this technology has a great application for measurement microphones where you want a flat response and its very hard to get it so you can program it in. But for live sound or for Live recording I think the products usefulness is limited at this point in time.


Please dont flame me for my opinion

Chris

you should check out the article that was linked about the digital mics.  there is some really interesting stuff about eliminating the noice floor to almost 0 because of the dynamic range of the digital system....

[John Willett]

..... the A/D built into a professional console or stand alone converter is going to be better then any A/D you can build in to a small mic.

Er - NO.  The Neumann has a patented 28-bit A/D which is better than anything else on the market.  It is actually better than analogue.

But the one thing that can not be ignored is all of these mics still have a analog front end that still produces noise, I for one don't want a noise gate on my mic to reduce the noise floor.

The digital mics have only the diaphragm and an fet before the A/D converter.

I want to be able to use a high end preamp with a microphone with very little self noise to do that.

You have to allow headroom in the analogue pre-amp to avoid distortion and more headroom in the A/D to avoid distortion - these two headrooms reduce the overall dynamic range of the microphone by about 25dB.  As the A/D is 28-bit in the Neumann Solution-D series you digitise the capsule directly - the 28-bit converter has a better dynamic range than the capsule so you don't need to allow headroom and get everything.

[rowjimmy]

I've seen folks using one of those car-starter/emergency power things:
http://tinyurl.com/2xgcac

These have AC outlets built in...

Terry

I actually have one of those heavy ass jumpstarter car battery deals.   That thing is friggin heavy!   Lots of juice though.

QFT
heavy as hell.
digital mics = step forward from analog mics (presumably)
"heavy ass jumpstart car batter deal" = step back from the SLA > Li_Ion movement of today.

Terry- you've seriously seen people running those at shows?

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Terry- you've seriously seen people running those at shows?

I have actually.  I can't remember who it was, but there was a local NC guy who ran his UA5 and JB3 with one.  I've also seen someone else use one at a festival to run a MOTU (or something)...

Terry

[rowjimmy]

That would solve my laptop + Konnekt8 power issues...

The hernia would be another matter.

</threadjack>

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

That would solve my laptop + Konnekt8 power issues...

The hernia would be another matter.

</threadjack>

This guy only weighs 2.5 pounds:  http://tinyurl.com/2cnn4k

That's about 1/10 of the first item I posted.  400watts @ 12v should give you plenty of power and has 2 AC outlets...

Terry

[Church-Audio]

..... the A/D built into a professional console or stand alone converter is going to be better then any A/D you can build in to a small mic.

Er - NO.  The Neumann has a patented 28-bit A/D which is better than anything else on the market.  It is actually better than analogue.

But the one thing that can not be ignored is all of these mics still have a analog front end that still produces noise, I for one don't want a noise gate on my mic to reduce the noise floor.

The digital mics have only the diaphragm and an fet before the A/D converter.

I want to be able to use a high end preamp with a microphone with very little self noise to do that.

You have to allow headroom in the analogue pre-amp to avoid distortion and more headroom in the A/D to avoid distortion - these two headrooms reduce the overall dynamic range of the microphone by about 25dB.  As the A/D is 28-bit in the Neumann Solution-D series you digitise the capsule directly - the 28-bit converter has a better dynamic range than the capsule so you don't need to allow headroom and get everything.

I was actually not commenting on the Neumann product in particular, I was more or less making a generalized statement. I realize now that it got misconstrued as me taking a poke at the Neumann digital microphones. I assure you that was not my intention, I was thinking back to the Beyer dynamic digital mic and a few other mics that have surfaced in the last little while. I do not know enough about the Neumann to comment on its functionality. I feel that the future of digital microphone is very exciting its going to be an interesting next few years. I still dont see the live sound applications or the live recording applications. It seems even thought there is a 28 bit better then "analog" converter inside, as soon as one connects it to a 24 bit or 16 bit D/A that all the "MAGIC" that is being created might get lost in the translation. I still feel strongly that analog still has a long shelf life. But that's just my opinion.

Chris

[John Willett]

I was actually not commenting on the Neumann product in particular, I was more or less making a generalized statement. I realize now that it got misconstrued as me taking a poke at the Neumann digital microphones. I assure you that was not my intention,

I didn't think you were taking a poke at all, just not fully understanding how AES42 digital mics. work and I was just trying to put the record straight.

I was thinking back to the Beyer dynamic digital mic and a few other mics that have surfaced in the last little while.

While I take my hat off to Beyer for making the first digital mic. It was not that good, really, and the mic. it was based on was a bit noisy to start with.  But as a tool for seeing how digital would go it was a good idea and paved the way for the AES42 standard we have today.

It seems even thought there is a 28 bit better then "analog" converter inside, as soon as one connects it to a 24 bit or 16 bit D/A that all the "MAGIC" that is being created might get lost in the translation.

The output from the mic. is 24-bit as that is the AES42 standard - the software optimises adjusts the 24-bit output to the 28-bit original so you get the best output possible.

I still feel strongly that analog still has a long shelf life. But that's just my opinion.

I agree with you completely here.  Digital microphones are a new tool that is ideal in many circumstances; but, especially for stage work, analogue microphones will be around for very very many years yet.

I hope this clarifies things.

[Brian]

how can the representation of sound be better than the sound itself?

Er - NO.  The Neumann has a patented 28-bit A/D which is better than anything else on the market.  It is actually better than analogue.

or are you just saying it has better specs because that, no doubt, is true.  i have reservations that it sounds better though.

[stirinthesauce]

Terry- you've seriously seen people running those at shows?

I have actually.  I can't remember who it was, but there was a local NC guy who ran his UA5 and JB3 with one.  I've also seen someone else use one at a festival to run a MOTU (or something)...

Terry

That is Joel.  I've done this myself back when I laptop taped and needed an expensive, long lasting power solution.  Of course my batt weighs like 30lbs so it stays in my trunk for the intended purpose of jumpstarting my car.  Also come in handy when the power goes out, I can charge my phone, lappy, whatever.  Great for the campsite at festies too.

[John Willett]

how can the representation of sound be better than the sound itself?

It's not - but an analogue signal in a microphone is also a representation of the sound and not the sound itself.

Taking the limitations of analogue circuitry it needs a 28-bit A/D to equal or slightly better it.  I think the theoretical maximum s/n is 128dB limited by Johnson noise - the theoretical of a 28-bit converter is 130dB.

I think I have my figures correct (no doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong).

[Brian]

hmmmm....i wouldn't say "representation".  as you definitely are aware, the standard microphone converts acoustical energy (the sound itself) to electrical energy.  obviously different microphones "shape" that sound a different way but the same energy is there, just in electrical form.  so, recorded to tape, it is the sound itself.  once through ad conversion it's then a digital representation based upon samples of the sound "itself".

i think we agree.....just different semantics i suppose. 

/thread digression.