Topic: Edirol R-09HR - Part FOUR

[udovdh]

Just curious. Why using such low setting ( below 8 for the R-09 or below 20 for the R-09HR)?
Considering unity gain is around 13 (R-09) and 40 (R-09HR), as far as my lack of knowledge goes, it has something to do with digital attenuation ( when a recorder receives hot signal from preamp ), which I'm told is not a good thing.

8 on the R09 and 20 on the HR are quite far apart in dBu's. So they're not both 'low'.
Where is digital attenuation on the 09 and HRs?

[udovdh]

R09 at 4, 5 or 6 all the time. No noticable problems. R09HR at 20 means about 18.5 dBu! Why would a 'pre' need to make the signal that hot so that the HR can attenuate it afterwards?
I bet you could run without pre.
So perhaps it is a non-issue.

Next time I'll tell J. Mascis that his guitar is too loud and he doesn't need so many amps and cabinets.  I'm guessing he'll say something about being too old.

The 7xx recorders can take a +26dBu signal.

The HR 28 dBu. So what does that say? The signal does not need to be that hot.
Your mics are too sensitive, your pre is working too much, etc.

Still it is interesting to know if these claims about distortion can be verified in a controlled manner.

Originated and verified the "claims" years ago on the r09, so old news.

I need more accurate stuff than that.
I.e.: this generated signal at level X going into the recorder at setting Y gives Z distortion.

[udovdh]

udo, if you don't know how the microphones and preamps we are using operate, why post?  your dismissive responses here, and in the tail end of the part 3 thread are adding absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Well..
A problem is diagnosed.
Then additional infos become available: unusually high levels that could, technically, be avoided.
That is the case. I am not saying the problems are not real. I just want to know and understand better.

there are definitely problems with at least a couple of gear combinations, and possibly more, when using the r09hr as a capture device.

1) mics > eaa psp2 > r09hr
2) schoeps mk(x) > remote cables > nbox > r09hr

freelunch and i both own an eaa psp2, which at it's lowest setting outputs ~22db of gain.

That may be 22 dB's too much in some situations. Agree?

the other preamp i, and others use with our schoeps mk(x) capsules, is called an nbox.  it is a boutique, custom built unit which provides power to the schoeps mk(x) capsues, as well as provides a fixed gain of ~18db.  it interfaces with the capsules via proprietary remote cables which can only be used with the nbox, so swapping the power source / preamp out of the chain is not an option.

Yes, but the sometimes unnecessary gain is again a problem. Agree?

i for one, am not going to get rid of either preamp because they operate and sound great, and their design is not flawed, like you suggest.  if the r09hr proves to be a deck that cannot handle their output, i'll simply buy a deck that will.

Sure, I can understand.

the flattened wav files only happen in very loud situations and it is a big deal to some of us since recordings are getting ruined because of it.  the mics are not too sensitive, like you suggest and the preamps are not overloading.  the r09hr cannot handle their output when it's set under a certain point, which we have not verified, yet.

Now that point is the interesting thing to know. Same for the 09.

if you don't want to help us find that setting, please move on.

How can I help? PC, amplifier, voltmeter, recorder?

[Dede2002]

Just curious. Why using such low setting ( below 8 for the R-09 or below 20 for the R-09HR)?
Considering unity gain is around 13 (R-09) and 40 (R-09HR), as far as my lack of knowledge goes, it has something to do with digital attenuation ( when a recorder receives hot signal from preamp ), which I'm told is not a good thing.

8 on the R09 and 20 on the HR are quite far apart in dBu's. So they're not both 'low'.
Where is digital attenuation on the 09 and HRs?

R09: 0 to 30 trim.
R-09HR: 0 to 80 trim.
So 8 on the R09 and 20 on the R-09HR are indeed low, no matter what.
I don't know about dBu's, but I've never set either set my R-09 or R-09HR at such levels.
That's why I was asking in the first place.
Digital attenuation? I'n no expert, but, theoretically, anything below unity gain.

[udovdh]

R09: 0 to 30 trim.
R-09HR: 0 to 80 trim.
So 8 on the R09 and 20 on the R-09HR are indeed low, no matter what.

Not low according to some fancy numbers that Edirol put on there.
But low according to the parameter that the levels control: amplification and/or attenuation.
I.o.w.: what signal is needed for 0dBFS? Check the gain ranges the decks support.

I don't know about dBu's, but I've never set either set my R-09 or R-09HR at such levels.

It depends on the gear. And on the situation.
The combination of stuff (deck, mic, etc) makes more or less sense, depending on the situation.
In this case people see unusually high gain signals coming out of their pre. The deck can't take it well enough, and then it's maybe the deck's fault.
Apart from how much you like your gear you also have to look at stuff in a practical way.
If the average deck takes only such and such levels and more expensive machinery maybe has your gain setting at the far end of the dial...
Maybe you need to look into adjusting something.

[George2]

Edirol is a -10 consumer input and those other pres mentioned are most likely pro +4 outputs,
why not pad down the outputs before going to edirol?

[Dede2002]

R09: 0 to 30 trim.
R-09HR: 0 to 80 trim.
So 8 on the R09 and 20 on the R-09HR are indeed low, no matter what.

Not low according to some fancy numbers that Edirol put on there.
But low according to the parameter that the levels control: amplification and/or attenuation.
I.o.w.: what signal is needed for 0dBFS? Check the gain ranges the decks support.

I don't know about dBu's, but I've never set either set my R-09 or R-09HR at such levels.

It depends on the gear. And on the situation.
The combination of stuff (deck, mic, etc) makes more or less sense, depending on the situation.
In this case people see unusually high gain signals coming out of their pre. The deck can't take it well enough, and then it's maybe the deck's fault.
Apart from how much you like your gear you also have to look at stuff in a practical way.
If the average deck takes only such and such levels and more expensive machinery maybe has your gain setting at the far end of the dial...
Maybe you need to look into adjusting something.

My only point is: if a taper has a hot signal in the first place ( I mean, the music coming from stage/PA) he just doesn't need to run a preamp in front of the record and therefore attenuate this signal using the recorder. To me, this is not a matter of how hot a signal a recorder can take. The question is: why are you sending such a hot signal to your recorder when you don't need to do that?

[Gutbucket]

Because that's the level that the mic & pre combination outputs in that situation and the output level is not adjustable on the preamp.

Correct in that there is an equipment mismatch, but these guys value their mic+preamp more than the R09.  That makes the R-09 is the weak link, not the mic+preamp combination.

Edirol is a -10 consumer input and those other pres mentioned are most likely pro +4 outputs,
why not pad down the outputs before going to edirol?

^^^
That's a viable solution.  Wire up some attenuators to place between the preamp and the R-09's input.  Another solution might be upgrading from the older R-09 which has problems with hot signals that require input level settings below '8' (I can confirm this from my experience too) to the newer HR if the HR can accept a hotter signal without distortion, which is what Freeluch is trying to determine.

[udovdh]

Another solution might be upgrading from the older R-09 which has problems with hot signals that require input level settings below '8' (I can confirm this from my experience too) to the newer HR if the HR can accept a hotter signal without distortion, which is what Freeluch is trying to determine.

Well... what were the situations as described in the report(s) of the problem(s)?
Can we replicate them quasi-scientifically in a controlled environment?
Can we measure if we have a problem?
I am interested in finding out more.

[Dede2002]

Because that's the level that the mic & pre combination outputs in that situation and the output level is not adjustable on the preamp.

Correct in that there is an equipment mismatch, but these guys value their mic+preamp more than the R09.  That makes the R-09 is the weak link, not the mic+preamp combination.

Good point.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Well... what were the situations as described in the report(s) of the problem(s)?
Can we replicate them quasi-scientifically in a controlled environment?
Can we measure if we have a problem?
I am interested in finding out more.

Sure, everyone is interested... But are you volunteering to do testing?

[gmm6797]

I can say this, my "crunchy" recording was an MK4>nbox>r09hr set at 20... and there is no easy or cost effective way run schoeps with out a pre-amp... the nbox setup is the easiest way to run the schoeps in a "hat" situation.

Running the same setup into the 722 does not create the same situations or problems... just FYI

[Dede2002]

I can say this, my "crunchy" recording was an MK4>nbox>r09hr set at 20... and there is no easy or cost effective way run schoeps with out a pre-amp... the nbox setup is the easiest way to run the schoeps in a "hat" situation.

Running the same setup into the 722 does not create the same situations or problems... just FYI

That's what I was guessing. Thanks for letting us know.

[digifish_music]

For the record...

Video review from Sonic State of the R09HR

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2009/05/08/sonic-lab-portable-recorders-edirol-r-09hr/

[gmm6797]

That's what I was guessing. Thanks for letting us know.

OK, if you are on the same wavelength as me, any suggestions on resolutions or fixes?