Topic: Recommendations for 4 channel device?

[travelinbeat]

I'm considering subjecting myself to a new round of torture...  I'm in the very earliest stages of considering a 4track.  Ideally it'd supply power to the mics and I'd be able to make a nice matrix recording on it.  I'd rather have a solid state recorder, but I don't know how common those are.  I'd love to have all sorts of in's and out's, and I'd consider 24/96 a requirement.  If any of you folks are able to rattle off a quick list, I'm happy to read up on the device, but I also welcome any insights or opinions you may have of any device in particular. 

Thanks

[ghellquist]

My suggestion: stroke out the 96 from your requirements. It is purely a marketing thing in the lower price segments. You need to go quite high in price level before that part of the balance will be a major part of the sound quality. A well done 44.1 will sound much better that a badly done 96.

Next thing is that 24 bit is purely marketing as well. You will get really, really good recording with a recorder that actually, truly delivers 20 bits (many so-called 24 bit machine does not deliver this much). There is not a recorder on the market you can buy today, for any kind of money that gives true 24 bits (and this is a fact).

The reason I add these two things is that you might stumble on older equipment that truthfully was sold as 20 bits and only could handle 48k in a professional quality, solid, good-sounding package.


Caveat: there are actually some specialized usages where 96 or even 192 actually makes a difference. This is about special effects where you might want to slow down the sound to half speed or even more. It has very little to do with taping.

// gunnar

[travelinbeat]

Thanks for the input gunnar, but I really think that I'd like to have the 24/96 in there-- I've personally done some side by sides with 24/96 recordings I've created vs. the 16/44.1 version of the exact same record and I can tell the difference (not major to me, but it's there).  Beyond that, I'd like to have a device that doesn't force me to hug the clip so much (it's much easier / cleaner to boost at 24/96, from what I've read).

I've renamed the thread to be a little more reflective of the inquiry and I'm still eager to hear what you folks have to say.  Much ultimate dream is the Cantar X2, but I don't think I got the scratch for that $14,000 beautiful behemoth.

[fmaderjr]

Its the 24 bits that make for a cleaner boost, not the 96.

I'm not a fan of recording 24/96 because I can't hear a difference between that & 24/44.1, but  no good 4 channel recorder is going to lack that capability so you'll be covered there.

I think the one most favored here that can be had at a reasonable price is the Edirol R-44 (the R-4 not so much unless it is modded).

Too bad you're not in the market to buy one immediately. With 8% cash back & 2% E-Bay bucks, this is an absolute steal (Excellent condition for around $728 shipped after rebates):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Edirol-Roland-R-44-4-Channel-Portable-Field-Recorder_W0QQitemZ230429026879QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a6a3ea3f

[rastasean]

I'm sure you saw this thread but check it out:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131661.0

In any case these are mostly very small differences in sound quality, and if I were you I would be more concerned about microphones and microphone placement than about this issue.
on the discussion of sound quality of bits, bytes, nanobytes

14 grand is a lotta cash. I'm afraid to add up how much I have spent since I discovered this site just two short years ago.

I say get R44!

[DSatz]

I've been using my Edirol R44 more and more lately, and still like it a lot in most respects. However, the screen is small and the metering, which uses less than half the available width, is inscrutable. The closer you get to 0 dB (full scale) where you really, really need to know what your exact peak levels are, the less you can see. Also, its continuously variable input level controls are always in the circuit, and have no detent at the point of unity gain.

But the design gets just about everything else right, for my purposes at least. I definitely like being able to stop recording, have the file be saved automatically, and start a new file all within a second--something I could never do when I recorded everything on a laptop computer.

--best regards

[taperj]

 I've been researching the same thing travelinbeat. I have a SD Mixpre right now so the SD 744t is making a lot of sense as a quick drop in in my bag for a solid 4 ch rig, if you already own a standalone high quality pre this might be an option for you as well(it would meet all of your recording requirements). I just ordered a pair of km100|LC3|ak40's to add to my skm184 for 4 channel and I'll eventually end up with a 788t I'm sure (I'm a glutton for big mixes), but I think my next logical step is the 744(probably get a V2 or V3 after that to swap out the Mixpre). I think this 'system' makes a 744 into a fairly versatile and modular device that achieves what's needed and leaves room to scale/swap. Not to mention, I can probably still run the whole 4 ch rig out of my Nova 2 bag!

J

[acidjack]

I love my R-44 because:

If you have an R-09HR, it has similar menu structure
It's a bit lighter than the Sound Devices units
It has nice, easy to view level meters
In general, it is user friendly
Feels solid
Easy to power for a long time with a DVD battery
To my ears, the plain old unmodded R-44 sounds pretty darn good too.

Knowing that you'd be making about the same jump equipment-wise that I did, I think you'd like this unit, and I think once you did your first SBD+mic matrix, you'd see the logic in the investment...

[travelinbeat]

if you already own a standalone high quality pre this might be an option for you as well

Glad you brought this up, actually.  I do not own any pre's other than those listed in my sig, and neither do I own any A/D.  I'd like to get a good, reliable device that can function as all of these.  I know I'm asking for a lot, but I'm also kind of hoping that this may stir up some discussion (person A says "device X has the best pre or A/D" then person B says "no way, device Y is way better," etc).  I've seen these R44's in the field and they are indeed pretty, and it's a great relief, acidjack, to hear that they use a similar menu to the one I'm familiar with on the R09HR (couldn't get much simpler).  So far, I'm reading a bunch of rave reviews for the R44 and not really a ton else about many other devices-- is it just that unanimous?  Also, what's the advantage of getting these things modded, I know a lot of you folks send these out to Oade or Busman and I don't know why exactly.  Also, R44 vs R4 vs R4 Pro?

[fmaderjr]

From what I've read here, some of the main differences are that the R-44 is bit perfect digital in (though that may not matter to you), is a bit smaller than the R-4, uses SD cards instead of a hard drive and sounds good stock. The R-4's preamps supposedly leave a good bit to be desired if not modded by Oade or Busman. I think I've read that this is because the R-4 was designed several years earlier and they improved the pres when the R-44 came out.

If I were to buy one of the 2, I wouldn't consider an R-4 unless it were modded and even then I think I'd go for a 44.

[datmike]

Just got a new R-44 and I'm loving it!!

I had an older Sound Devices MP-2 so I just got a newer Mixpre for the second set of mics....



The bag is the G-Broadcaster bag from Gator Bags:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&m=Y&Q=&%20Cases.Audio_Recorder_Cases_GABDR=&IC=GABDR&A=RetrieveSku

[travelinbeat]

Do these R44's save all four channels or does it flatten it all into a 2channel stereo recording

[datmike]

Do these R44's save all four channels or does it flatten it all into a 2channel stereo recording

The R-44 saves:
Stereo x1
Stereo x2
Mono x1
Mono x2
Mono x3
Mono x4
4Ch x1

[acidjack]

Do these R44's save all four channels or does it flatten it all into a 2channel stereo recording

Can be custom done.  You can set it for all 4 individually, 2xstereo, or I think one giant 4ch file. I believe the preferred method is 2xSTEREO because that way you can edit each source independently. But I just got the thing, so I'm sure others have other ways they do it.

[su6oxone]

744T is a nice all-in-one recorder that goes for around $3200 used.  Keep in mind that it only has two preamps with phantom though, the other set of XLR inputs don't.  The 788T has four preamps with phantom and four additional channels without a pre and costs about $6000 new with a HDD and $6500 with a SSD.  They rarely come up used.  I think if you get one of these you won't need to upgrade for a long time, which is why I plan on getting at least a 744T at some point. 

[notlance]

744T is a nice all-in-one recorder that goes for around $3200 used.  Keep in mind that it only has two preamps with phantom though, the other set of XLR inputs don't.  The 788T has four preamps with phantom and four additional channels without a pre and costs about $6000 new with a HDD and $6500 with a SSD.  They rarely come up used.  I think if you get one of these you won't need to upgrade for a long time, which is why I plan on getting at least a 744T at some point. 

No, that is not quite correct.  The 788T has 8 inputs that can be mic, line, or digital.  All 8 inputs are the same except inputs 1-4 use XLR connectors and inputs 5-8 use TA3 connectors to save space.  (Other than having to make some XLR to TA3 adaptors, I have no issue with the TA3 inputs.)  All inputs have phantom power which can be used for either mic or line.

I bought my 788T before the SSD option was available.  I've never had a problem with my HDD unit, but I'd recommend buying the SSD version since it has a 256 gig SSD (vs 160 gig in the HDD version) and it's a SSD with a MTBF of 1,000,000+ hours.

The 788T is a very fine recorder: nice preamps, phantom power done right, excellent A/D, great meters, extremely reliable, redundant media and power, versatile, built by a Cheesehead company with excellent customer service, etc, etc, etc.  Its biggest drawback is its versatility; it can be a bit complicated to operate, much more so than a 702.  John Willett has called it "a bit fiddly", and I cannot disagree with that assessment.

Yes, it is more expensive than a R44, but it is less than a Cantar X2.  You pays your money and you takes your choice.

[fmaderjr]

Wow! travellinbeat is now recording with an R-09HR and posted for recommendations about a 4 channel recorder. I'm guessing what he is looking for in more in line with an R-44, and this has morphed into plugs for the multi-thousand dollar SD machines. I'm sure they are great machines, but many of us can't afford them or or prefer to allocate the money elsewhere even if we could.

Anyway, the R-44 is a great machine for a reasonable amount of money. That's what I'd personally get even if I could afford a 788.

[page]

From what I've read here, some of the main differences are that the R-44 is bit perfect digital in

interesting, I hadn't come across that tidbit.

[notlance]

Yes, I agree travelinbeat is probably looking for something like an R-44, but he indicated no $ limit, and he was the one who mentioned (probably in jest) the Cantar, so why not a 788T?

Anyway, my main reason for posting was to clarify that the 788T does in fact have 8 mic pres.

[travelinbeat]

I feel so strange to have people posting things like "travelinbeat probably wants...".  I still feel like such a noob here, it's interesting to see that some of you folks have actually picked up enough of my posts to feel comfortable enough to make assumptions about what I want!  I appreciate all the input, and I know that my OP did indeed indicate no dollar limit, and that was the intent.  Of course I'm probably going to end up somewhere closer to the R-44 dollar end than the 788T (let alone my dream, the Cantar), but I figured I would cast far and see what bites (for example I had never even heard of the 788T until just now).

It's still sounding like the R-44 is the one stop shop for my needs-- sounds like it's a great device right out of the box with no need for mod's and a familiar interface which utilizes solid components.  I'm still lingering around the new Tascam device too (DR-680, TS thread), interested to see what kind of reviews it's going to get from tapers.  Good thread so far folks, thanks for everything, please keep the suggestions coming!

[datmike]

Don't forget about this new Tascam...due out in a few months, I believe......

http://www.tascam.com/products/dr-680.html


I'm still happy with my recent R-44 purchase!

[Walstib62]

That new Tascam ships in Feb. Full Compass will have it for 945.00. Could be a great unit if it proves to be reliable.

[su6oxone]

No, that is not quite correct.

Thanks for the corrections, it's awesome that the 788T can do eight channels phantom.  I was also incorrect about the 744T, which has one pair of XLR inputs with phantom, and one set of TA3 line inputs.  What we really need is a new version of the 744 with phantom/pres for all four channels.  That would really be my dream 4-channel recorder that I can conceive of someday owning. 

[Ozpeter]

The number of channels required in any recording situation is always one greater than the number of channels available.

I'd say that anyone in the four channel recording market with a non-urgent need should indeed be waiting to see what end users feel about that new Tascam before buying the R-44 - which I have and love, however.  For me its chief drawback is the rather restricted monitoring available, a problem which the Tascam seems to address.

[taperj]

just noticed this travelinbeat, thought it might interest you(R44 fs)... http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131803.0

[travelinbeat]

just noticed this travelinbeat, thought it might interest you(R44 fs)... http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131803.0

Thanks for that but this research is all to get me ready for the taxman (so I'm still a bit ahead of the real purchase).  But this too brings up a question I have: mods.  I understand that both Oade and Busman do mods on the R-44, and I'd love to understand why.  Furthermore, I'd be interested in hearing a) how significant the change is from mod vs not mod, b) if the mod is worth it, and finally c) [:gulp:] which is better?  Busman or Oade?

[fmaderjr]

just noticed this travelinbeat, thought it might interest you(R44 fs)... http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131803.0

Thanks for that but this research is all to get me ready for the taxman (so I'm still a bit ahead of the real purchase).  But this too brings up a question I have: mods.  I understand that both Oade and Busman do mods on the R-44, and I'd love to understand why.  Furthermore, I'd be interested in hearing a) how significant the change is from mod vs not mod, b) if the mod is worth it, and finally c) [:gulp:] which is better?  Busman or Oade?

I believe in the earlier designed R-4 there is an audible improvement in performance with the mods that anyone can hear. From what I've heard, not so much with the R-44. It has redesigned and better stock preamps. Many people seem to be happy with stock R-44's.

People seem to like the Busman & Oade mods about equally, but you get mediocre communication and customer service from Busman. I got an Oade mod on a DAT deck and the improvement was like night & day mic in (I didn't know about line in back then). I got a Busman FR2-LE that never worked right and when I finally sent it back, it took him 2 months to fix it and then he sent it back with a loose screw or piece of plastic rattling around inside that takes away all the joy of using it. I personally won't buy from him again despite the huge number of people who have bought mods from him and love them.

[acidjack]

just noticed this travelinbeat, thought it might interest you(R44 fs)... http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131803.0

Thanks for that but this research is all to get me ready for the taxman (so I'm still a bit ahead of the real purchase).  But this too brings up a question I have: mods.  I understand that both Oade and Busman do mods on the R-44, and I'd love to understand why.  Furthermore, I'd be interested in hearing a) how significant the change is from mod vs not mod, b) if the mod is worth it, and finally c) [:gulp:] which is better?  Busman or Oade?

You might want to check out this thread that I started earlier:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130601.0

Based on what I read, it sounds to me like, at least in this test, nobody could tell the difference.  I have used my DPAs with both an Oade Mod 660, a littlebox and the R-44.  Of course, never all at the same time.   But, I can't say I can tell much difference, though the Oade deck is, I think, the best sound. Again, that could just be recording situations more than the preamp. 

One of these days I guess I should A/B between mics direct into R-44 and mics into the littlebox to see the diff...