Topic: Sound Devices 302+Zoom H4n versus Just Sound Devices 702?

[skimmel]

I'm new to the audio and video thing ("old" at the still photo thing), but getting into it pretty seriously and trying to get as clean audio as possible.  Am shooting video with a DSLR (Nikon D3s).

Mostly will be dialogue/voice overs, but hopefully down the road some choral work. I bought a Zoom H4n but am not particularly happy with it -- in particular, with a Rode NTG-2, I have to crank the levels up to 100 (top) to get a decent signal. Sound is OK, but there is some hiss that bugs me.

So, I was thinking of investing in either a better portable recorder (and am particularly attracted to the Sound Devices 702) versus getting a better preamp/mixer and running that either into the H4n or perhaps a slightly better recorder.  If I go with an SD 302 and a Fostex FR-2LE, the cost is actually less than that for just the SD 702. 

So, would like to hear from the experienced group here about the pluses and minuses of each of these choices: An SD 302 mixer into either a Zoom H4n or, say, Fostex FR-2LE versus just using an SD 702.

Thanks.

[oleg]

first check if you supply 48 v ph to your mic with zoom, as ntg need to se 48 and not 24 .
if you use internal battery , don't do it , there is some degradation in audio during low  battery voltage , better use ext power .
second its  just a money issue , for video work , actually dialog and ambient sound , zoom could be more then enough with good preamp in front , you can use the 302 or mix pre  and go to unbalance mic input ( with mix pre you will need pad down the signal as it doesnt have mic outs) what will leave yo with additional 2 inputs  you could  use for other mics  for 4 track recording , i have this setup , with better mic  but it works just fine .

[sunjan]

I'm new to the audio and video thing ("old" at the still photo thing), but getting into it pretty seriously and trying to get as clean audio as possible.  Am shooting video with a DSLR (Nikon D3s).

Mostly will be dialogue/voice overs, but hopefully down the road some choral work. I bought a Zoom H4n but am not particularly happy with it -- in particular, with a Rode NTG-2, I have to crank the levels up to 100 (top) to get a decent signal. Sound is OK, but there is some hiss that bugs me.

So, I was thinking of investing in either a better portable recorder (and am particularly attracted to the Sound Devices 702) versus getting a better preamp/mixer and running that either into the H4n or perhaps a slightly better recorder.  If I go with an SD 302 and a Fostex FR-2LE, the cost is actually less than that for just the SD 702. 

So, would like to hear from the experienced group here about the pluses and minuses of each of these choices: An SD 302 mixer into either a Zoom H4n or, say, Fostex FR-2LE versus just using an SD 702.

Judging from the gear you mention, your budget is around $1900 (SD302 = $1300 + FR2-LE $600, or SD702 = $1900).

The 302 combo has the obvious advantage that you can feed it with three channels, if you need that. The downside is handling more pieces of gear, having to keep track of interconnects and batteries.

If you don't need three channels (you only have one stereo mic today?), the 702 would work out as more user friendly in the field, since it's an all-in-one.

I understand that SD has a prime reputation among the film crowd, but you could consider other brands and make a substantial saving.

If you need more than two channels, take a look at better value rigs like DR-680 ($900), R-44 ($900), also available with Oade Super mod, supposedly good for film dialogue:
http://www.oade.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=OBA&Category_Code=EDIR44-Super

This will give you money to spare for some choir mics. Maybe a Busman kit, or something less conspicuous...

[su6oxone]

Get a 702, it's great!  Low noise floor, easy to use, great battery life with Sony L-series camcorder batteries, and extremely durable/reliable.  There's a TSer selling one for a great price if you're planning to get one:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138202.0

[Shadow_7]

It depends on how you define portable.

My portable rig is currently 2x Sound Devices MM-1's + 1x Korg MR-1000 + mics / stands / cables.  I've got the field recorder and preamps rigged up in an over the shoulder configuration.  And it's all battery powered so it is "portable" by definition.  But each MM-1 weighs more than my Korg (including the 8x AA batteries), so weight is 3x's plus some, not including the mics.  But it comes in handy to weight down the bottom of the mic stand so it doesn't tip in the wind.  I'm still working on the configuration that would allow run and gun abilities.  Also with video (Sanyo FH1).  The FH1 plus monopod that is ace bandaged to a spider brace for the total video rig and that comes in at about the same weight as a single MM-1.  Upgrades to come later as budgets allow.  Probably better mics this year and something non-consumer camera wise next.  Although I already bought the MM-1's this year so budgets are a bit tight.

I was going to go with a Fostex FR2le, but with only 4x AA's and media not included I opted for the Korg.  I got the Korg used and at a price that paired well against the FR2le + card prices at the time.  And with 8x AA's, a glimmer of hope for native onboard longevity on common batteries.

Rode NTG-2
http://www.rodemic.com/microphone.php?product=NTG-2
Noise specs:
18dB A weighted
76dB Signal to Noise ratio

So not the mic.  Max SPL 131dB so not too good for a rock concert.  Not as quiet as other mics.  But still good.

Zoom H4n
http://www.zoom.co.jp/archive/English_Manual/E_H4n.pdf

It looks like the H4n only allows for 32dB to 47dB of gain, which is kind of weak.  And are known to be a little noisy.  The MM-1's allow for 66dB of gain (if the knob / specs are to be trusted).  And the Korg seems to spec near 60dB of gain.  Looks like the Fostex seems to spec near 50dB of gain.  By all acounts the Fostex's gain is cleaner than the Korg's.  Not that it matters much with an external preamp.



My modest rig.  Less mics and mic stuff.  The little red pouch is where I keep the remote control for the FH1.  And the lens cap when it's off.  Not pictured is the day bag strap with clips that I attach when it comes time to carry / lug the unit in far off lands.  I'll probably opt for a baby harness or something to carry it in view while recording once I figure out the run and gun configuration.  I'm still shy a few gadgets like shock mounts, adjustable stereo bar, and mic clamp.  Any sort of DIY effort there is going to be bulky at best.

I'm basically in the same boat as you, but maybe a step ahead too.  Going for that cheap sound devices 702 rig as well.  Not to imply cheap.  My main bottleneck right now is that I don't have the right mic(s) to make full use of my current specs.  And the camcorder is still more of an afterthought / necessary evil.

[skimmel]

Thanks all for the replies so far.

Probably a dumb question but: how much of the sound quality is from the pre-amps vs. other things? That is, if the 302's will provide as good sound as the 702, I could get the 302 and that way have the option, over time, to change recorders or even, if I ever get a dedicated videocam, record right into the camera thru the mixer.

[Shadow_7]

The most noticeable gain is the noise floor and dynamic range.  So if you're recording soft things from a distance, it matters much.  There's also gains in frequency response and EQ qualities.  Impedance matching, phantom power to spec, and generally output options.  And of course battery life which is the main reason I got external preamps.  Taking the 48V phantom power burden off of the field recorder does wonders for battery life.  I get a good solid 4 hours between the two preamps and one field recorder and the 12x AAs that powers them.  Versus little more than 2 hours on the 8x AAs that is the field recorder by itself.

And for me it gives me 4x quality preamps in a crunch.  Two on the field recorder and two external to pipe into a 4 channel soundcard at home.

[oleg]

The most noticeable gain is the noise floor and dynamic range.  So if you're recording soft things from a distance, it matters much.  There's also gains in frequency response and EQ qualities.  Impedance matching, phantom power to spec, and generally output options.  And of course battery life which is the main reason I got external preamps.  Taking the 48V phantom power burden off of the field recorder does wonders for battery life.  I get a good solid 4 hours between the two preamps and one field recorder and the 12x AAs that powers them.  Versus little more than 2 hours on the 8x AAs that is the field recorder by itself.

And for me it gives me 4x quality preamp in a crunch.  Two on the field recorder and two external to pipe into a 4 channel soundcard at home.

battery life is never an issue with external powering as what 90% of people dealing with audio for video  usually does .

phantom power usually adds  between  0.15 - 0,25 w per hour per mic  - 3 -5 w  for 10 hours for par  what becomes irrelevant when you use  external source

[notlance]

Probably a dumb question but: how much of the sound quality is from the pre-amps vs. other things? That is, if the 302's will provide as good sound as the 702, I could get the 302 and that way have the option, over time, to change recorders or even, if I ever get a dedicated videocam, record right into the camera thru the mixer.

IMHO, once you get to the quality level of the SD gear, the preamp has little influence on the overall sound quality.  Mic placement, mic type and quality, room acoustics, external noise, etc will have much more influence over sound quality.

If you got a 702 you could use it as a 2 channel preamp and feed its output right into the camera, but why?  The 702 is a much better recorder than the audio section of most videocams where audio tends to be an afterthought.

The real question is do you need 3 inputs or only 2?  Well do ya, punk?  (Sorry, that's my inner Dirty Harry coming out.)

[Shadow_7]

External power gets dumped pretty quickly when you throw a camera into the mix.  Plus there's other concerns with the house or band thinking they OWN your recording, because you used THEIR power.  And legal concerns over people tripping on your cords.

The phantom power thing does more than you're indicating.  Bear in mind that the field recorder (at least mine) is powering an HDD, an LED, TWO preamps, an ADC, and whatever else.  So that ONE extra thing (phantom power) is the straw that breaks the camels back.  Having it off field recorder might improve things drastically since all of those variables could significantly alter the consistency of said power with just the field recorder.  Not that all mics are sensitive to that, but some are very sensitive to it.

[oleg]

i will start with  phrase you will not  like - you don't know anything about video production and  audio rigs which used in that business :-)
second when im talking external power i refer to external battery power as no way anyone in video world will use ac  as  a main source when he on the move , not even when he does sit down interviews  , you don't want to get  ground or dimmer issues .
and even when you do hooked to console to record anything  you better  stay on batteries not to be accidentally caught off .
be in mind that no one in my business care  what your or my recorder power inside as it what it supposed to do , the only care is the total power it drains , so if you know how to calculate   you know exactly what beast you need to hook from outside to get X  hours of operation .
usually manufactures will give you number that not incl ph power calculation as it changes from mic to mic,  to calculate it you multiply the current draw( ma ) by voltage ( 48 v)and add 10-15 % to dc to dc  efficiency .

by the way i didn't get your first sentence  but never camera dc shared with audio rig if that what you mean

another thing  for normal work flow   not bee need to change battery in  every component  as usually cant be in same time  and sometimes in video world you have allot of them , you use one  or 2 dedicated source s while the internal batteries only for if the shit happens
video is completely different world then tapping , you get money for  so you better know how to work get the next call :-)

[manitouman]

I get over 14 hours out of my 702 and the Lenmar 7800 mah battery running phantom 48v with all the lights going except the display light. Writing 24/96 files onto the compact flash. I don't see the problem with battery power running 48v phantom. I've ran for over 6 hours and it barely makes a dent in the battery display.

[skimmel]

Probably a dumb question but: how much of the sound quality is from the pre-amps vs. other things? That is, if the 302's will provide as good sound as the 702, I could get the 302 and that way have the option, over time, to change recorders or even, if I ever get a dedicated videocam, record right into the camera thru the mixer.

IMHO, once you get to the quality level of the SD gear, the preamp has little influence on the overall sound quality.  Mic placement, mic type and quality, room acoustics, external noise, etc will have much more influence over sound quality.

If you got a 702 you could use it as a 2 channel preamp and feed its output right into the camera, but why?  The 702 is a much better recorder than the audio section of most videocams where audio tends to be an afterthought.

The real question is do you need 3 inputs or only 2?  Well do ya, punk?  (Sorry, that's my inner Dirty Harry coming out.)

Good question (and well put). I'm just getting into this so not sure if I will ever need 3 inputs.  I could imagine, when recording a vocal group, I might use 2 mics in front of the group, and maybe use the zoom h4n's built ins for audience.  Not sure I'd need a 3rd external mic.

So, I'm still trying to understand the role of the preamps in sound recording: If I use an SD 302 preamp and plug it into each of the following recorders, how much of a difference will there be among these 3 recorders:  Fostex, SD 702, Zoom H4n? Thanks.

[fmaderjr]

So, I'm still trying to understand the role of the preamps in sound recording: If I use an SD 302 preamp and plug it into each of the following recorders, how much of a difference will there be among these 3 recorders:  Fostex, SD 702, Zoom H4n? Thanks.

Many members here love the FR2-LE as a one box system. If you are looking for a recorder to use with the SD302 though, I think you'd do better with the much smaller and cheaper Sony M10. It has better battery life and your recordings will surely sound as good as with the FR2-LE. Plus you could use the M10 with mini-mics if you ever feel the urge do do any stealth recordings. Of course if you had gotten the FR2-LE instead of the H4n, it's possible you wouldn't have felt the need to add a preamp to the chain. I'm not a fan of Zoom products in general (although the H4n is supposed to be better than the H4 & H2). I'm also not a FR2-LE fan, but I'm in the minority there, and may be prejudiced because my unit never worked right and probably was defective.

 

[oleg]

Probably a dumb question but: how much of the sound quality is from the pre-amps vs. other things? That is, if the 302's will provide as good sound as the 702, I could get the 302 and that way have the option, over time, to change recorders or even, if I ever get a dedicated videocam, record right into the camera thru the mixer.

IMHO, once you get to the quality level of the SD gear, the preamp has little influence on the overall sound quality.  Mic placement, mic type and quality, room acoustics, external noise, etc will have much more influence over sound quality.







If you got a 702 you could use it as a 2 channel preamp and feed its output right into the camera, but why?  The 702 is a much better recorder than the audio section of most videocams where audio tends to be an afterthought.

The real question is do you need 3 inputs or only 2?  Well do ya, punk?  (Sorry, that's my inner Dirty Harry coming out.)

Good question (and well put). I'm just getting into this so not sure if I will ever need 3 inputs.  I could imagine, when recording a vocal group, I might use 2 mics in front of the group, and maybe use the zoom h4n's built ins for audience.  Not sure I'd need a 3rd external mic.

So, I'm still trying to understand the role of the preamps in sound recording: If I use an SD 302 preamp and plug it into each of the following recorders, how much of a difference will there be among these 3 recorders:  Fostex, SD 702, Zoom H4n? Thanks.

The real question where are you going ?
If you intend to grow up in documentary /video business you probably will find that 3 input s are  the minimum required , if not ,you can live with 2 inputs only .
 Don't forget that 302 make your zoom 4 not bad at all 4 track recorder ,302  with good camera in the future   may  loose you  working double system  , may add additional 2 unbalance inputs  for 5 at all
Why do you need good preamp stage?
Mainly get clarity  or "sound color" , better amplification , ability for good limiters and high pass filter .
 

[skimmel]

The real question where are you going ?
If you intend to grow up in documentary /video business you probably will find that 3 input s are  the minimum required , if not ,you can live with 2 inputs only .
 

Sorry again for dumb question, but why, typically, does one need 3 or more mics for documentaries?

[Shadow_7]

The real question where are you going ?
If you intend to grow up in documentary /video business you probably will find that 3 input s are  the minimum required , if not ,you can live with 2 inputs only .
 

Sorry again for dumb question, but why, typically, does one need 3 or more mics for documentaries?

Because you probably have two lavaliers on the two people and a 3rd mic on a boom.  Otherwise it'd be more of a podcast than a documentary.

[Shadow_7]

i will start with  phrase you will not  like - you don't know anything about video production and  audio rigs which used in that business :-)
second when im talking external power i refer to external battery power as no way anyone in video world will use ac  as  a main source when he on the move , not even when he does sit down interviews  , you don't want to get  ground or dimmer issues .
and even when you do hooked to console to record anything  you better  stay on batteries not to be accidentally caught off .
be in mind that no one in my business care  what your or my recorder power inside as it what it supposed to do , the only care is the total power it drains , so if you know how to calculate   you know exactly what beast you need to hook from outside to get X  hours of operation .
usually manufactures will give you number that not incl ph power calculation as it changes from mic to mic,  to calculate it you multiply the current draw( ma ) by voltage ( 48 v)and add 10-15 % to dc to dc  efficiency .

by the way i didn't get your first sentence  but never camera dc shared with audio rig if that what you mean

another thing  for normal work flow   not bee need to change battery in  every component  as usually cant be in same time  and sometimes in video world you have allot of them , you use one  or 2 dedicated source s while the internal batteries only for if the shit happens
video is completely different world then tapping , you get money for  so you better know how to work get the next call :-)

HUH?

When did we start talking SD 788T and Alexa?  Or even video business?  Cameras like the Alexa have TWO batteries so you can swap one for a second without pausing in the process.  I'm not seeing where the EXTERNAL power issue is here?  If you're running it so close to the wire that you have to calculate battery life, perhaps you should have bought additional batteries months ago.  If you're getting paid, you can NOT run that risk period, even a calculated one.

[skimmel]

The real question where are you going ?
If you intend to grow up in documentary /video business you probably will find that 3 input s are  the minimum required , if not ,you can live with 2 inputs only .
 

Sorry again for dumb question, but why, typically, does one need 3 or more mics for documentaries?

Because you probably have two lavaliers on the two people and a 3rd mic on a boom.  Otherwise it'd be more of a podcast than a documentary.

Ah, thanks.  I was thinking of documentaries where 1 person was speaking to the camera, rather than 2, but this makes sense.

[Shadow_7]

The real question where are you going ?
If you intend to grow up in documentary /video business you probably will find that 3 input s are  the minimum required , if not ,you can live with 2 inputs only .
 

Sorry again for dumb question, but why, typically, does one need 3 or more mics for documentaries?

Because you probably have two lavaliers on the two people and a 3rd mic on a boom.  Otherwise it'd be more of a podcast than a documentary.

Ah, thanks.  I was thinking of documentaries where 1 person was speaking to the camera, rather than 2, but this makes sense.

Even with one person you might have a lavalier and a shotgun and a boom mic.  Failure is not an option.

[oleg]

that is a  true American way , i prefer not deal with lavaliere if i don't need one :-)

[oleg]

i will start with  phrase you will not  like - you don't know anything about video production and  audio rigs which used in that business :-)
second when im talking external power i refer to external battery power as no way anyone in video world will use ac  as  a main source when he on the move , not even when he does sit down interviews  , you don't want to get  ground or dimmer issues .
and even when you do hooked to console to record anything  you better  stay on batteries not to be accidentally caught off .
be in mind that no one in my business care  what your or my recorder power inside as it what it supposed to do , the only care is the total power it drains , so if you know how to calculate   you know exactly what beast you need to hook from outside to get X  hours of operation .
usually manufactures will give you number that not incl ph power calculation as it changes from mic to mic,  to calculate it you multiply the current draw( ma ) by voltage ( 48 v)and add 10-15 % to dc to dc  efficiency .

by the way i didn't get your first sentence  but never camera dc shared with audio rig if that what you mean

another thing  for normal work flow   not bee need to change battery in  every component  as usually cant be in same time  and sometimes in video world you have allot of them , you use one  or 2 dedicated source s while the internal batteries only for if the shit happens
video is completely different world then tapping , you get money for  so you better know how to work get the next call :-)

HUH?

When did we start talking SD 788T and Alexa?  Or even video business?  Cameras like the Alexa have TWO batteries so you can swap one for a second without pausing in the process.  I'm not seeing where the EXTERNAL power issue is here?  If you're running it so close to the wire that you have to calculate battery life, perhaps you should have bought additional batteries months ago.  If you're getting paid, you can NOT run that risk period, even a calculated one.

Alexa , it has 1 battery tray  in which you can place battery or dual battery holder or what calls reserve battery and holder .
when the main battery goes down you still have 10-15 minutes in reserve or as many do and use ext dc input which you can parallel hook second ext source  till you exchange  one . by the way already shoot 2 days with last week( commercial )  recording directly true Alexa to aja ki pro by  sd-hdi .   nop  , i don't calculate minutes in my rigs , i calculate hours or days  as usually work with  160 w   lithium ion ones.  And thank you for your concern i have about 1800 watt in all of the available for me , and yes i have ability for hot swap in all my rigs  as well .
 i was more referring for small rigs  where you don't want to use  very large batteries   to keep the weight as small as possible and get at least 8 hours  continues running time

[oleg]

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj119/paulgiraffe/IMG_2117.jpg

there is a picture that shows  that you need do some calculation :-)
not my , i rarely came to 9 receivers and 2 shotguns on my deva 16

[Shadow_7]

i was more referring for small rigs  where you don't want to use  very large batteries   to keep the weight as small as possible and get at least 8 hours  continues running time

I don't know of many small rigs that can do 8 hours continuous.  HV30 uses tapes - 1 hour.  My FH1 has an internal battery - 2 hour.  And I have to remove it from the tripod to replace the battery.  15GB-ish per hour of 24Mbps AVCHD stuff, so 4 hours would be 60GB-ish with most running on SDHC (Max 32GB) or SDXC (tending towards 64GB at the moment).  The only real way to do 8 hours continuous with those small things is to have two camcorders and swap rigs.  Although some have time lapse abilities that let them run and record at intervals for 8 hours.  And some have beefy internal HDDs for long run times.  Outside of an external DC adapted cell for those, you generally can't hot swap the battery on those.  But once you've gone that route, you can't exactly put that rig in many underwater enclosures.  Plus other how to swap media in things in the rain.  Even if you opt to use rain capes and other things to prevent outright failure.  Thinking survivor man style recording here, not news at 10 or anything more commercial.  Local amateur football games, baseball games, marching band shows, and the likes.  Without access to the press box and shelter + power.  On rickety old HS stadiums that probably don't even have a press box.

[Erick del Valle]

that is a  true American way , i prefer not deal with lavaliere if i don't need one :-)

Oh man, I can not agree more with you


Erick del Valle
Santiago de Chile

[Erick del Valle]

I forgot to talk about what is discussed here, in my opinion is better to have the option of using 302 independently when you need to record directly to a camcorder, and if you need a dual system, the 302 has a dedicated mix out (- 10dB) for that purpose regularly use my 302 connected to my d50 and balanced outputs connected to the camera, the result is always good

Hope this helps

Erick del Valle
Santiago de Chile

[oleg]

i was more referring for small rigs  where you don't want to use  very large batteries   to keep the weight as small as possible and get at least 8 hours  continues running time

I don't know of many small rigs that can do 8 hours continuous.  HV30 uses tapes - 1 hour.  My FH1 has an internal battery - 2 hour.  And I have to remove it from the tripod to replace the battery.  15GB-ish per hour of 24Mbps AVCHD stuff, so 4 hours would be 60GB-ish with most running on SDHC (Max 32GB) or SDXC (tending towards 64GB at the moment).  The only real way to do 8 hours continuous with those small things is to have two camcorders and swap rigs.  Although some have time lapse abilities that let them run and record at intervals for 8 hours.  And some have beefy internal HDDs for long run times.  Outside of an external DC adapted cell for those, you generally can't hot swap the battery on those.  But once you've gone that route, you can't exactly put that rig in many underwater enclosures.  Plus other how to swap media in things in the rain.  Even if you opt to use rain capes and other things to prevent outright failure.  Thinking survivor man style recording here, not news at 10 or anything more commercial.  Local amateur football games, baseball games, marching band shows, and the likes.  Without access to the press box and shelter + power.  On rickety old HS stadiums that probably don't even have a press box.

that what i say you don't  really in video business , continues running time for sound mixer  is continues time i power my rig  if i recording or not ,the camera exchange buttery , tape reloads  , time for each card not coming to my calculation .
 the total time of actual recording may be 2 hours while the operator had it 8 hours on his  shoulder .
 usually no one in docu do hot swap  , if you have important shot you place new battery and not play around , and if it dies  it take 20 seconds go  record again.
 but unfortunately no one like wait to sound mixer change 20 batteries in his rig :-)

[Shadow_7]

Of course no one wants to wait on anyone when money is involved.  On a side note, I've never seen a concert go longer than 4 hours continuous.  At least none that I've been too.  Festivals, telethons and other things of course, but there's generally some gap-age in there while the bands swap sets.  And the larger venues have power options beyond batteries.  Swapping the 12 batteries on my sound gear takes slightly less than 3 minutes on location.  Considerably less time at home since I have a table and other things to make it easier.  And yes I plug in, when the option is available and the risk is minimal.  It saves considerable time after the gig in terms of battery charge times.

I'm not an industry person by no means.  And I don't really desire to be one, although I'm not past making a buck.  I merely want the capability to record anywhere, anytime, under any conditions (including bad weather).  With pro-like results.  Something which most pro's seem to be incapable of doing.  You can't bank on power options in the middle of a hurricane.  Odds are good that you wont have access to any.  And battery plus inverter options are not ideal when just trying to survive, or in flood like conditions.  Not that my ideal rig does much more than a glorified soccer mom could do.  I'm just willing to spend the couple extra bucks for the pro-ish capture components.  Which doesn't leave much left for pro-ish rigging while keeping to a budget of total device costs cannot exceed the cost of my vehicle.  And I don't expect to be driving anything other than sub $20K vehicles in my lifetime.  Baring super inflation, which seems to be the current political agenda.