Topic: newbee asking for recorder recommendation

[kuuan]

there is another thread of somebody enquiering about the connectors for the AT822 to the AD-20 needed: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=67337.0

From the AT822 specs, it looks like it comes with two cables:  <1> unbalanced stereo XLR-female > unbalanced stereo 3.5mm male mini, and <2> unbalanced stereo XLR-female > unbalanced 2 x mono 3.5mm male mini.  If it were me, I'd make a custom cable, or have one made:  unbalanced stereo XLR-female > 2 x balanced XLR-male.  I believe options 13 or 17 from this PDF would do the trick.  Those options both deal with different connectors (1/4" and RCA, respectively) on the unbalanced end, but the theory's the same.  If you're not comfortable making one of these cables, you should be able to find someone on TS to make one for you, or find a local electronics shop that will make one for you.

...Which cable do I need to connect the AD-20 to the Iriver? Or should that come with the AD-20?

The <1> cable you mention is very short ( 50 cm, I guess designed when used shockmounted on a cam )
The <2> cable is much longer ( 3m ) which could be more useful cable when recording to the iriver.
Do you second that? So I'd need unbalanced 2 x mono 3.5mm male mini > unbalanced XLR-male.
However that longer cable also includes two adapters to be srewed on to 3,5mm jacks to make 2 unbalanced 1/4 inch ( 6,3mm ) jacks
Therefore I also could use ( even better ? ): unbalanced 2 x mono 1/4 inch male < 2 x balanced XLR-male
Could that even be standard and be found 'readymade'?

[Brian Skalinder]

...Which cable do I need to connect the AD-20 to the Iriver? Or should that come with the AD-20?

Sorry, I didn't mention that one.  You'll want to use the optical output of the AD-20, and the optical input of the H1xx.  I believe both use optical mini connectors.  I'd get a cable with right-angle mini optical connectors on both ends, like this one.

The <2> cable is much longer ( 3m ) which could be more useful cable when recording to the iriver.
Do you second that? So I'd need unbalanced 2 x mono 3.5mm male mini > unbalanced XLR-male.
However that longer cable actually terminates in 2 unbalanced 1/4 inch ( 6,3mm ) jacks + adapters that can be screwed to make them into 3,5mm jacks.

I may have mislead you with my talk of using adapters to connect unbalanced and balanced gear.  I know you can connect balanced gear to unbalanced gear, but going the other way - unbalanced to balanced, as in your case - may be different.  In digging a bit further, I think you may actually want a passive dual transformer/isolater box rather than just adapters.  Something like the ART DTI.  Though not terribly large, smaller options may exist - I'm not sure.  I'm stretching my knowledge here, as I've never really had to learn first-hand about connecting balanced and unbalanced gear before.  I'd recommend posting a new thread in the Ask The Tapers forum asking how to connect your unbalanced mic (AT822) to your balanced preamp (AD-20) - the new thread may draw additional input from fellow TSers with a broader knowledge and experience base (than me) on this specific issue.

The Good News:  all that's left is figuring out how to connect the AT822 to the AD-20 and...you're all set! 

[kuuan]

......The Good News:  all that's left is figuring out how to connect the AT822 to the AD-20 and...you're all set! 

thank you again.
...seems like an iriver and AD-20 and all connections are coming around...

[kuuan]

As you suggesterd, Brian, I posted the question if I can use 2 simple plug adapters or if I needed the transformer/isolator box to connect the AT822 to the AD-20 at the 'Ask the tapers Forum'

Brian, from the very start you said that I would need a preamp to add sufficient gain for ambience recording and therefore recommended the iriver+AD-20 combination. As it is the smallest preamp + recorder combination I was sure to go this way even though I did feel that the gear becomes more bulky then I was hoping. Even though we don't know yet, but if I also needed that extra box it even would become bulkier again..

Therefore please let me ask once more:
Is there a chance that the R-09's internal preamp would be strong enough, and that with the R-09 I would not have to use an external preamp?

As mentioned earlier I may want to record audio while I use the AT822 connected to my cam so eventually I want more mics with different characterisics as the AT822:
Searching the forums my attention got drawn to matched pairs of C4s, or AKG c1000, or Octava MK-012, or AT853 which all are very appealing also because of their interchangeable capsules ( - AT853 ). However they all use phantom power which is a clear drawback since ultra portability is of outmost importance to me.

My question therefore is:

• Do all 'better' mics need phantom power? Or is it required above all if recording from loud sound sources? - besides having the advantage of ballanced cables, but as they and their connectors are heavy I wonder if I can avoid them
• Are there pairs of mics of similar sound quality as the ones mentioned above which do without phantom power?
• If so, are there any which also have interchangeable omni/cardioid capsules?
• Does phantom power add gain and, if not using phantom power I'd need a preamp for sure, but if I used mics with phantom power I e.g. could use them with the R-09 without needing a preamp?

thank's for any input and clarification.

[SunWizard]

I have the R-09 and use it with the AT853s most of the time.  The AT853s I have - the SP CMC-4 don't need the usual phantom power which is 48v, they work best off of a 9v battery box which is very small.  And with that combo the R-09 pre is probably enough gain for nature sounds.  How quiet of nature sounds are you interested in?  The R-09 pre and A/D sounds very good, far better than my iRiver HP120 or JB3.  It may be good enough for you.  I could go outside and record some birds or creek, etc. for you and put a sample up here. 

I also use the AT853 direct into my R-09 often without the battery box for acoustic music, using the plug power provided by the R-09 which is 3.3v and it sounds great, see my samples of that in a post a few days ago.  From my tests of acoustic sources with medium volume, they sound about the same as with the 9v power.  I go this route when I am in primitive conditions (camping, backpacking everything in) and don't want the extra battery and cable to deal with.  But for quiet nature sounds or loud sources the battery box is needed.

[SunWizard]

Just to be clear, I use the SP-SB6 battery box with bass rolloff, and it has no pre, I am using only the pre in the R-09.  Hooking the AT-853 up to the 9v battery makes the mics more sensitive so you use less gain on the R-09 pre, compared to the 3.3v plug power option.  And the pre on the R-09 is surprisingly clean.

[kuuan]

I have the R-09 and use it with the AT853s most of the time.  The AT853s I have - the SP CMC-4 don't need the usual phantom power which is 48v, they work best off of a 9v battery box which is very small.  And with that combo the R-09 pre is probably enough gain for nature sounds.  How quiet of nature sounds are you interested in?  The R-09 pre and A/D sounds very good, far better than my iRiver HP120 or JB3.  It may be good enough for you.  I could go outside and record some birds or creek, etc. for you and put a sample up here. 

I also use the AT853 direct into my R-09 often without the battery box for acoustic music, using the plug power provided by the R-09 which is 3.3v and it sounds great, see my samples of that in a post a few days ago.  From my tests of acoustic sources with medium volume, they sound about the same as with the 9v power.  I go this route when I am in primitive conditions (camping, backpacking everything in) and don't want the extra battery and cable to deal with.  But for quiet nature sounds or loud sources the battery box is needed.

WOW, thank you very much for this information.
Your set up, those small SP CMC-4 and the small battery box SP-SB6 are a very sweet combination and seem to be VERY much what I could use - specially with an R-09!

The R-09 does have a 'low cut' function and mic level control. Do I asume right that I would not need those function again on the battery box? If so, could one make such a 9 Volt power supply easily oneself? Is it wiring only or does it take more then that? I was thinking of a package of 4 rechargable AA 1,5 Volt batteries, for which cheap housings are readily available and which would be most convenient!

thank you for the offer to post sound samples. Unfortunately I have not been able to listen to any as here I am battling with a computer which seems to be running without any sound card..all I get is little, always interrupted sound altough the internet connection is fast enough.

I already did win a bid at an auction for an iriver H120. It has not arrived yet, and when looking into getting an AD-20 I got told 2 itimes independently that it does not sound all that good. I don't doubt Brian's suggestion to be 'tops', above all if recording very quiet ambience. But after all 'ultra' portability is more important to me than the ability to record at very quiet sound environs. Therefore the R-09 with mic and battery box you mention looks like a winner set up to me.
Never mind about the iriver. I will enjoy playing around with it, and maybe sell it later.

May I ask: How well do the R-09's onboard mics perform in your opinion? How do their recordings compare with the recordings made with your SP CMC-4?
And how again would the SP CMC-4 compare to your C4s?

- and does anybody out there have other similar mic suggestions - mics that do not need phantom power but are of high quality?

thank you

[SunWizard]

The R-09 does have a 'low cut' function and mic level control. Do I asume right that I would not need those function again on the battery box? If so, could one make such a 9 Volt power supply easily oneself? Is it wiring only or does it take more then that? I was thinking of a package of 4 rechargable AA 1,5 Volt batteries, for which cheap housings are readily available and which would be most convenient!

May I ask: How well do the R-09's onboard mics perform in your opinion? How do their recordings compare with the recordings made with your SP CMC-4?
And how again would the SP CMC-4 compare to your C4s?

The low cut function on the battery box is better than the one on the R-09 since the cut frequency can be adjusted to whatever you like.  I don't use it much though since I like the full response from the AT-853, they have good bass response.  The battery box cut is useful in a boomy room where you want to adjust the freq of cut.  The switches on the SP battery box have a drawback I don't like: when carrying it around in your pocket they can get accidentally bumped and changed, messing with the low end.  The SP battery box is nice since its tiny, almost the size of a 9v battery. 

You can make your own, I made a 3 wire battery box which is better than the SP box for loud sources, it still uses a 9v battery but is much bigger since I used a plastic project box.  Do a search on here for 3 wire battery box.

The onboard mics are decent, and better than any other built in mics I have heard.  Internal is omni, which is not as good as the cardioids in the AT853 in most situations.  They also have more self noise so wouldn't be as good for quiet nature sounds.  The AT853 are better sounding than the internals all around, more detailed sound.  I only use the internals if I am in a hurry to start recording and don't want to fool with getting the AT853 hooked up and aimed.  Which for nature sounds may be a factor.  Another thing I do is wear the R-09 on my belt, leaving the AT853s clipped to my glasses or clothes, and then I am ready to hit record whenever a good sound comes along.

The AT853 are almost as good as my C4s.  I would describe the C4s as a more detailed sound, and a little flatter frequency response, and better bass.  But the difference is slight and depends on what you are recording.  Less difference than going from the internal to the AT853s.

[SunWizard]

I just ran some test recordings of quiet birds in my yard.  You can get enough gain with either the internal mics and the AT853 (no battery box) if you set the switch on the back of the R-09 to High Gain.  One drawback to the internal mics is no windscreens which are often essential outdoors.  Maybe you could custom hack some out of a foam block of the right kind of foam.  You get a cleaner recording using the battery box since then you can set the gain much lower, with this setup there is plenty of gain for any quiet sounds.  Quiet birds and my footsteps could make the peak light come on with gain set to max.  The AT-853 are so hot with the battery box that for concerts you can run Line-in (no mic pre.)

[Brian Skalinder]

I just ran some test recordings of quiet birds in my yard.  You can get enough gain with either the internal mics and the AT853 (no battery box) if you set the switch on the back of the R-09 to High Gain.

Regarding internal gain on the a portable recorder like the R-09, Hxx, JB3, etc.  They may, in fact, have sufficient gain, but that's only part of the equation.  The bigger issue IMO is self-noise.  That's my rationale behind the AD-20 - high gain at low self-noise.  I could probably get sufficient gain out of my answering machine for recording my footsteps and birds in my backyard, but...what how much noise would there be relative to the footsteps and birds?  (I'm not saying the R-09 sounds like my answering machine, just an example.)

I don't know how the R-09 performs relative to the AD-20 regarding high-gain and self-noise.  But I think it's a factor worth considering, along with the other requirements:  budget, storage capacity, media, etc.

[SunWizard]

Regarding internal gain on the a portable recorder like the R-09, Hxx, JB3, etc.  They may, in fact, have sufficient gain, but that's only part of the equation.  The bigger issue IMO is self-noise.  That's my rationale behind the AD-20 - high gain at low self-noise.  I could probably get sufficient gain out of my answering machine for recording my footsteps and birds in my backyard, but...what how much noise would there be relative to the footsteps and birds?  (I'm not saying the R-09 sounds like my answering machine, just an example.)

I don't know how the R-09 performs relative to the AD-20 regarding high-gain and self-noise.  But I think it's a factor worth considering, along with the other requirements:  budget, storage capacity, media, etc.

I agree the self noise is a big factor for quiet sounds and thats why I posted earlier "The R-09 pre and A/D sounds very good, far better than my iRiver HP120 or JB3", and that its surprisingly clean.  I dont have a AD-20 to compare to but I can say the self noise is not bad on the R-09 with AT-853 even at max gain on the high setting.  Thats where I had it set for the sample recordings I posted a few days ago.  I have run some side by side comparisons of the R-09 with my UA-5.  I would compare the sound and self noise as similar to the stock UA-5 which most people agree is decent.  The self noise of the internal mics is worse, but I expect that compared to the AT853s. 

I think it should also help the sound that the R-09 is a 24 bit A/D compared to the 20 bit A/D in the AD-20.

[kuuan]

Regarding internal gain on the a portable recorder like the R-09, Hxx, JB3, etc.  They may, in fact, have sufficient gain, but that's only part of the equation.  The bigger issue IMO is self-noise.  That's my rationale behind the AD-20 - high gain at low self-noise.

Yes Brian, that makes very much sense. As my original question was for a recording rig for quiet ambience setting your recomendation should fit the bill best.

My other requirements are small, lightweight, easy to use. I even had asked for high quality Mics that do not require phantom power for not having to carry a powering box and the heavy XLR connectores - which led to the SP-CMC4s. A R-09 certainly is much lighter than an H120+AD-20 combo.

However we do not have a direct comparison of the preamps and A/D of the R-09 and the AD-20. SunWizard reports that the R-09's are very quiet, even quiet enough for 'nature' recordings. But the question remains: Are the A/D and preamp of the R-09 as quiet as the A/D+preamp of the AD-20? -  It would be perfect if somebody who owns both could shed light on this!

I see the big advantage of the onboard memory of the H1xx. But SP-CMC4 > R-09 must be the smallest, most lightweight, easy to set up and easy to use rig. Therefore in case that it is almost as noise free as the h1xx+AD-20 combo it should be my prefered choice. ( I carry a 2,5 and a 3,5 external HD around with me and there are not expensive cases incl. cardreader that allow direct upload which should solve the storage question )

concerning SP-CMC4: As that they sound, as you say, almost as good as the C4s they really make a very good choice for their small volume. ( The C4s could be a better match with the AD-20 for their XLR connectors ).
From some posts I got the impression that some would slightly prefer the AT853Rx, but I did not find out why.
Can the capsules on the SP-CMC4 also be changed?

concerning battery box:

You get a cleaner recording using the battery box since then you can set the gain much lower

So that means that the battery box not only helps for very loud sound source, but also for quiet ambience recordings, yes? The optional low cut and gain adjustments on the SP battery boxes can be of advantage, for loud sound sources the 3 wired selfmade box is favoured but not for quiet sound source as it lowers the gain, right? However I do like soldering and experimenting, so eventually I may try to make one, or better a preamp? ( now I can't - I am 'on the road' )

So, in the end: A H120 is on it's way, but I decided as not to get a AD-20 as of yet since I consider to change my recorder to be a R-09. I will start recording with my AT822 directly plugged into the H120...
..so I'd better enquire what is recommended for that! Chances are that I may stay with the H120 for some time before getting a R-09 anyway: I enjoy experimenting, would like trying to make my own preamp, as I guess a preamp would allow going line-in instead of mic-in which could be of advantage..well, if my selfmade preamp was better than the iriver's.. .

I wonder if my next investment sould be SP-CMC4s since you say:

The AT-853 are so hot with the battery box that for concerts you can run Line-in (no mic pre.)

to try them out directly inline >  H120!

[SunWizard]

The CMC-4 are the same capsules as the AT853Rx and can be changed.  The Rx version has xlr transformers hard wired onto them, which are kind of large.  Some people like them better because then you get the sound equivalent to the 3 wire battery box. I have both and have done comparison tests.  But then you are limited to xlr and providing full 48v phantom power, and its not as small and you can't do the plug power or 9v battery box options.

Yes the battery box helps with quiet nature recordings because you need less preamp gain.  And the 3 wire does lower the gain compared to the SP box.

The iRiver doesn't have a mic input, you must go line in, so you need hot mics like the AT-853 with batt. box, or an external pre.

[petur]

The iRiver doesn't have a mic input, you must go line in, so you need hot mics like the AT-853 with batt. box, or an external pre.

My iriver h3x0 supplies about 3.7V plug power, I'm quite sure the h1x0 series do the same. Maybe not much but it's still something

[kuuan]

The CMC-4 are the same capsules as the AT853Rx and can be changed.  The Rx version has xlr transformers hard wired onto them, which are kind of large.  Some people like them better because then you get the sound equivalent to the 3 wire battery box. I have both and have done comparison tests.  But then you are limited to xlr and providing full 48v phantom power, and its not as small and you can't do the plug power or 9v battery box options.

So the SP-CMC4s is my best choice.

Yes the battery box helps with quiet nature recordings because you need less preamp gain.  And the 3 wire does lower the gain compared to the SP box.

I had seen the schematics of the 3 wired battery box, but how about a 2 wired one? Sould be easy to be made by oneself, or could that lower the gain again? What would I have to be careful about that it would not lower the gain?

The iRiver doesn't have a mic input, you must go line in, so you need hot mics like the AT-853 with batt. box, or an external pre.

petur said it: the iriver does supply plug in power, but I can imagine that an external preamp and going line in could enhance quality.