Topic: Sony PCM-M10 or PCM-D50?

[RoganSarine]

The reason I ask between these two is there is a indie concert I really want to record that happens in two weeks -- not enough time for Church Audio mics to be built. As far as I know, the PCM-D50 would give me way better sound because of the directional mics. I would assume, though, that the Church Audio mics would be way better than the D50 mics though anyway.

Additionally, the PCM-D50 is quite a bit bigger than the PCM-10 (about double the depth?), so I'd assume security guards at major concerts would be more likely to hate on the device. So, I am asking you guys what I should do.

Should I buy the PCM-M10 or the PCM-D50? It's the bands last show, so the audio recording is kind of the bigger deal. But, afterwards, I wouldn't want to not be able to go to other concerts because of a large bulky D50 (assuming they'd not allow it through).

[Belexes]

Well security should NEVER see the device.   Someone here a while back voluntarily showed security their M10. 

I have both the D50 and the M10, but do not have much experience using the internals as I have always had the better external mics.  The M10 is very compact with a very long battery life with just two AA's.  It's easier to use in non-open situations and I generally use my D50 for open taping for for venues with zero security.

Answer, M10.

Or you could check the return policy from where you buy the deck, use the D50 for one show, and return it for an M10. 

[RoganSarine]

Yeah, I was considering doing the return thing... But Im always scared they won't allow me to do it -- especially since if I bought them locally in CAnada it'd be nearly double the price as if I drive down to the states.

As for the hiding, like, I could probably pass the M10 off as an iPhone in a cellphone case since it's so small... D50? That'd be a riot to try and conceal.

By the way, just while I'm here... Any tips on concealing the M10? I could probably search for an answer, but most of them are for specific venues (not really a list of ideas where I could conceal it)

[rastasean]

a lot of people prefer not to indicate how they hide their unit. be creative.

perhaps you can see if any other taper is going to the show and maybe get a copy from them. are you only interested in recording one band or do you think you'll like to record in the future?

[Napo]

rastasean's question is a good one.

For instance I understand that the new SDPre2 can be linked to D-50, not to M-10. Is that correct?

[RoganSarine]

I'd be primarily recording a bunch of local bands, but I wouldn't mind trying to get stuff into bigger concerts.

In short, I'd do it more than once for sure. It might help to realize if there any any noticeable pros to the D50 besides the better internal mics (which I eventually wouldn't use). I'm not too familiar with the lingo their spec sheets use.

[rastasean]

For instace I understand that the new SDPre2 can be linked to D-50, not to M-10. Is that correct?

Well technically, both recorders can be used with the sd usbpre2 but the d50 has the optical tos in for the digital signal and the m10 only has analog via line in. even more technical, BOTH of the recorders can record from the usbpre2 at the same time.

[Belexes]

D50? That'd be a riot to try and conceal.

Tapers use to conceal this...a Sony D5. Anything is possible with creativity.

[Napo]

For instace I understand that the new SDPre2 can be linked to D-50, not to M-10. Is that correct?

Well technically, both recorders can be used with the sd usbpre2 but the d50 has the optical tos in for the digital signal and the m10 only has analog via line in. even more technical, BOTH of the recorders can record from the usbpre2 at the same time.

I have a M-10 . Which output option from the SDpre2 shoudl I use? which cable? (sorry for the newbie qustions and the off-topic)
 

[rastasean]

I have a M-10 . Which output option from the SDpre2 shoudl I use? which cable? (sorry for the newbie qustions and the off-topic)

the usbpre2 is $650. If you're looking for a less expensive and great sounding preamp, look at the naiant little/tiny box.

but I can still answer your question.

http://sounddevices.com/images/products/usbpre2-back-900px.jpg

that's male xlr which also means its the output from the pre-amp.
what you then would do is get two female XLRs (left and right audio) > 1/8" cable to plug into the m10.

going back to the littlebox, it can be configured in multiple ways but I think the standard is XLR in and the output is left/right RCA; therefore, you would need left/right rca to 1/8" cable.

if you don't have this cable, you can make it or contact someone like ted to make it for you.
ted's profile to PM him
ted's cable retail page
naiant pre-amps

[Napo]

WOW! that is an exaustive reply.

Thanks a million!
Mauro from Italy (wine is on me if in Rome )

[darby]

D50? That'd be a riot to try and conceal.

Tapers use to conceal this...a Sony D5. Anything is possible with creativity.

I did a few shows with that
I know some guys that did some shows with this:

[ilduclo]

I have had pretty decent results with the internal mics from the d50. I usually use my dpa 4061's, but if I can get a clear line of sight and balanced distances, the d50 mics can sound really good. If you only have 1 set of mics/bat box/preamp, I'd recommend the d50, if only that it is a back up in case something happens to the set of externals.

[Belexes]

LMAO, a Nak 550! That's the deck that Dan Lampinski used for most/all of the recordings are are now on Dime/TTD. What a beast.

[Napo]

The internals of the M-10 are good as well. They are omnis, though, working well in control ambients like auditoriums.

[munichhilton]

Assuming price is not a concern, the D50 does get a more spacious recording.
BUT the M10 does outstanding as well...just a bit more crowd noise with the M10 I've noticed though.

Both are simple to get into any show.

I also used the cheaper ZOOM H2 once and even it got a good recording...heck their all mostly great!

[sparkey]

Any tips on concealing the M10?

In your butt.  That method also provides a compelling reason for the M10 over the D50.

[Artstar]

Hahah. That would be a compelling reason indeed!

Seriously though, having both units myself, I did have a couple scares with the D50 and security because of their use of metal detectors for the first time. Thing is, security are generally oblivious to such devices and in my case, I simply wrapped my mics around the unit (in its Sony leather case I bought with it), held it in my hand doing the Jesus pose while they scanned me and never said a word to me about what I was carrying.

Nevertheless, the smaller you can go, obviously the less likelihood of you being hassled. In which case, despite the PCM-D50's mics having a noticeably better sound in my opinion, the PCM-M10's mics aren't that far behind and you'd still do pretty well with them as far as internal mics go. I've never used them in a rock environment though so I can't really say for sure if they'd do well at handling high SPL's but of the few louder jazz gigs I've experimented with, they seem to fare nicely. At any rate, for your application, I don't think you need to go as far as the PCM-D50. Get yourself the PCM-M10, enjoy it and get yourself some good external mics when you can.

[earmonger]

Many security people have seen my PCM-M10 because I put it in a camera pouch (Lowepro Ridge 30 since you asked) and hang it on my belt. Little rectangular burgundy-colored plastic thing with an LCD, obviously it's a dinky little point-and-shoot camera. Right? Come on in, sir.

But the bigger question for your recording is, how are you going to position either unit if you use the built-in mics?  They have to be out in the open air and up near your ears. 

I wouldn't record with either unit at waist level--you'll get muffled sound down there. The PCM-M10 in a front shirt pocket sinks into the pocket so the mics are behind fabric.  You can put something in your pocket under it, to prop it up, so it's peeking up above the pocket--not the worst solution. The PCM-M10 has a tripod mount socket, but that makes it pretty obvious.

Or think creatively about how to get it up and out into the air.  Hang a pouch around your neck? Dangle the unit off a strap (unfortunately the strap connects to the lower right corner, making it hang down diagonally). You don't want to be holding it in your hand for the length of the concert--for one thing, you'd get handling noise.

The PCM-M10's internals can handle pretty loud sound. I'd use manual, obviously, and dial the input volume down to 2, and put on the limiter just in case. People have reported iffy behavior under 2.

[RoganSarine]

Many security people have seen my PCM-M10 because I put it in a camera pouch (Lowepro Ridge 30 since you asked) and hang it on my belt. Little rectangular burgundy-colored plastic thing with an LCD, obviously it's a dinky little point-and-shoot camera. Right? Come on in, sir.

But the bigger question for your recording is, how are you going to position either unit if you use the built-in mics?  They have to be out in the open air and up near your ears. 

I wouldn't record with either unit at waist level--you'll get muffled sound down there. The PCM-M10 in a front shirt pocket sinks into the pocket so the mics are behind fabric.  You can put something in your pocket under it, to prop it up, so it's peeking up above the pocket--not the worst solution. The PCM-M10 has a tripod mount socket, but that makes it pretty obvious.

Or think creatively about how to get it up and out into the air.  Hang a pouch around your neck? Dangle the unit off a strap (unfortunately the strap connects to the lower right corner, making it hang down diagonally). You don't want to be holding it in your hand for the length of the concert--for one thing, you'd get handling noise.

The PCM-M10's internals can handle pretty loud sound. I'd use manual, obviously, and dial the input volume down to 2, and put on the limiter just in case. People have reported iffy behavior under 2.

The concert I want to record in 2 weeks that made me consider the PCM-D50 (since I don't have my church externals yet) is actually taper friendly. I can get the PCM-M10 past security easily and have it out in the open without a problem. I was just worried about how I would get decent sound with omnidirectional speakers, and where I would position the device to do so. I wouldn't have to conceal it, I just wouldn't know how I could do it with omnidirectional speakers.

I also can't find any concert samples with raw PCM-M10 internal speaker sound.

[Chris 91]

The PCM-M10's internals can handle pretty loud sound. I'd use manual, obviously, and dial the input volume down to 2, and put on the limiter just in case. People have reported iffy behavior under 2.

I've learned that it can actually take loud sounds as long as you're far enough away from the speakers. If you're too close, the bass (mostly bass drum) will be too much for the internals and it'll come out distorted (regardless of level). That's happened to me twice already. If you're in an arena, or you're right in the middle with the speaker stacks to the sides of you it should be alright. If you are right in front of the speakers and it's going to be a loud show, personally, I wouldn't even bother. You'll either have to move a bit further back or move towards the center (which might be kind of hard depending on the crowd).

As for holding it, i'd just put it up to my chest and point the speakers out towards the source. Having it in a shirt pocket usually muffles the sound a bit. If there's people around you talking, move. The talking will sound pretty clearly in the recording if it's anywhere close in front of you.

[Ozpeter]

Microphones record sound, speakers play back sound.

Having got that clear, the possible advantage of the M10 in a stealth situation is that the omnidirectional microphones should enable you to get the same sound regardless of whether the device is vertical - such as in a shirt pocket or held a bit like a camera or mobile phone - or horizontal pointed towards the band, which you'd certainly have to do with the D50.

The issue with the M10 mics is not so much the sound, as the stereo image, which makes high frequencies tend to go to the extreme left and right, and low frequencies go to the centre.  You can to some extent improve that in your DAW afterwards but it's a bit of a pity that you have to.

http://rekkerd.org/matthew-lindsay-ncl-phase-eq/ is the tool which IMHO is essential for M10 owners.

[dain45yl]

perhaps you can see if any other taper is going to the show and maybe get a copy from them. are you only interested in recording one band or do you think you'll like to record in the future?