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Author Topic: Converting Mono to Stereo  (Read 4596 times)

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Offline moonchilddave

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Converting Mono to Stereo
« on: December 11, 2009, 05:29:02 PM »
I'm on a MacBook (OS X 10.6.2).  I hope this is the right place to post this, if not I appologize in advance.

I made the mistake of recording a show in mono and while it's not a bad recording, it sounds a little flat.  Are there any special techniques that can help liven up a recording when going from mono to stereo.  I'm using SoundStudio 3 and doing a "Mixdown to Stereo" to get it in stereo - but have no idea what to do from there.  Any advice or other program suggestions?

Offline Scooter123

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2009, 10:12:17 PM »
1.  Split EQ between channels.  Bass slightly up on one, down on the other, etc through the 5 bands.

2.  Slight delay between channels.  Over 25ms sounds awfully echoey.  Experiment between 5-16ms. 

Those are the two that I use. 
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Offline dactylus

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2010, 10:07:15 AM »

Reference - thanks.
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mfrench

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2010, 10:33:50 AM »
what is wrong with mono?
thats what was recorded - so play it.

I ask, because I've spent the better part of a year making a quality mono playback system, so that I can listen to the decades of music that were originally mastered in mono, in proper context.
In that year, I feel that I'm barely beyond step one. Mono is a highly complex, very rewarding format.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 10:36:12 AM by mfrench »

Offline mr qpl

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2010, 06:05:28 PM »
Mono is a nice band, but not a good way to listen to music, IMO

ref: http://www.archive.org/details/Mono

Online Gutbucket

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2010, 08:05:48 PM »
Besides the other suggestions, a very light touch with a bit of stereo room verb, panned wide to keep from muddying the center mono image can help.. if the music and the recording can tolerate some added ambience.

what is wrong with mono?
thats what was recorded - so play it..

Nothing inherently wrong with mono, but setting up to record stereo and accidentally ending up with a mono recording isn't a likely path to monophonic bliss.  The appreciation of great mono recordings can co-exist with the desire to rescue a marginal one and attempt to make it sound better. I think everyone would agree that different techniques are called for if the target is mono.

I have a profound respect for those who developed the tricks and techniques and had the experience to really get the most out the mono music format.  But like it or not, the need for of those high level skills and the exercise to keep them well tuned, has dwindled to near insignificance over the past 30 to 40 years. Those with serious real world expertise are retired or dying off, even though the fundamentals are well understood and the equipment has vastly improved. 

All things being equal, I think it's more difficult to make a really good mono recording than a stereo one.  & Call me crazy, but I also think it's more difficult to make a really good stereo recording than a surround one!

Yet all things are rarely equal and I think it's safe to say that everyone around here has better honed stereo recording expertise than mono or surround recording skills. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 08:16:21 PM by Gutbucket »
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mfrench

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 11:32:17 PM »
Something about polishing a terd comes to mind.
Listen, learn, move on. The thing won't ever be stereo.

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 12:10:11 AM »
This is probably obvious, but I think the trick to mono is listening on one speaker.  To me, mono recordings sound strange played over stereo speakers.  This is an unnatural event, to have the exact same sound coming from two different places in the room, so I'm not surprised.  A proper mono system would just have one speaker, near the listener.  If you've got a stereo setup, just play over one speaker.

Another point, when you make a stereo recording, play each channel mono (from on speaker) to listen to it.  You may be surprised to find it doesn't sound very good, yet the stereo image sounds fine.  The stereo realism is essentially compensating for a bad recording that has got something unbalanced, too much "room" echo, or something else.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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mfrench

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2010, 12:30:57 AM »
A great playback for mono is a built-in corner speaker. It broadcasts into the room very well from there. The old mono and shellac era records weren't thick in bass, nor were the playback systems. They took advantage of the corners ability to build the bass.
This is a direction that I was trying for a mono playback system, but the amp I tried died. So I need to try again for another vintage amp.

Online Gutbucket

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2010, 11:24:20 AM »
My grandfather had what seemed to me to be a huge mahogany corner cupboard that was a built-in corner folded horn speaker.  It amazed me as a little kid.  I remember it smelled like old wood, horsehair and dust, sounded great & completely filled the room, but then I was only 5 or so before my grandparents moved.  That was cool mono, man.

Richard, you make an interesting point about listening to one channel of a stereo recording and it sounding compromised.  I think that can often be the case and is an interesting test, but isn't necessarily an indication that the stereo recording is somehow flawed.  A bicycle with one wheel removed doesn’t make a very good unicycle.  If you were making a mono recording, would you point your single cardioid mic off to one side? 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2010, 12:25:49 PM »
If you were making a mono recording, would you point your single cardioid mic off to one side?
I agree that you would not point to the a mic to the side.  Consider recording at the back of a narrow room.  In this case both a mono and stereo recording will sound "distant" (they get too much from the reverberant sound-- the walls, and not enough from the direct sound).  A stereo recording may initially sound OK, but if you listen in mono, you can hear the defect more obviously.  In both mono and stereo, the message is: get closer!

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2010, 01:42:30 PM »
Exactly!

If I'm recording something acoustic (no PA) in stereo I want to put my mics closer to the source than I'd sit if I was just attending as a listener.  If I was recording in mono I might want to get closer still.  I've found recording in surround allows me to move a little farther back, but still not nearly as far as a listener can sit at the live event and still have it sound good (Actually I don't move farther back when recording in surround, but instead find that recording in surround from the same position as stereo has an effect on the direct to reverberant ratio that is similar to moving the mics closer).

One reason I think making good stereo (or surround) recordings is easier than mono is that it becomes somewhat less of a problem getting a good balance of direct and reverberant sound.  Stereo can support more ambience without sounding overly reverberant, and surround still more again. If I simply sum the channels of one of my surround recordings to mono, it can sound way over reverberant.  But a surround recording that sounds good summed to mono, would probably be too dry and lifeless in surround.  If I listen to only one channel of a surround recording, it might sound rather odd on its own.  Take for example the back channel, why should it stand on it’s own?  It only plays a supporting role.  Stereo is the same, it’s not two mono recordings that can stand alone, but one stereo one.

Things can easily sound confusing when all the direct and reverberant sound comes from the same point. With stereo and surround there is less and less sonic competition for the same space.  Mixing techniques of eq’ing instruments to fit into different frequency ranges becomes much less important. Those techniques are really important for that old wall of sound mono stuff were everything is competing to be heard clearly over one speaker. They are still useful for stereo production and are used all the time, but aren’t as critical as for mono.  Interesting that those instrument tracks that are eq’d to fit together without competing with each other often sound odd an compromised in isolation.  That’s sort of the reverse scenario, another bicycle with one wheel.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OOK

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2010, 11:31:23 PM »
1.  Split EQ between channels.  Bass slightly up on one, down on the other, etc through the 5 bands.

2.  Slight delay between channels.  Over 25ms sounds awfully echoey.  Experiment between 5-16ms. 

Those are the two that I use.

Split the mono feed to 2 mono channels... then

I ussually run a multi tap delay of about 7 to 10 ms.....works great....

sometimes I add a little eq in as well ..

OOK
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Online Gutbucket

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2010, 11:33:42 AM »
An interesting method which I've looked into as a way to spread a single recorded surround channel accross two surround playback channels could also be used to spread mono material across the front stereo soundstage.  I thought a lot about this a few years ago but haven't done anything with it yet.  It is a way of using a constant phase shift (not a frequency variable phase shift like that introduced by a short delay) to decorelate two copies of the same signal.  The method is attractive in that it introduces no delay, reverb or eq, sums back to mono perfecty with only reduced level depending on the amount of phase shift between channels, and is indetectable if one channel is listened to in isolation.  This is the primary method all matrix surround decoders use (Dolby PLII, DTS neo6, Logic-7, Circle surround, etc) to synthesize multi-channel surround information from the mono difference signal of stereo source materials, spreading surround information to multiple surround speakers.

The technique is to mult the mono signal, then phase shift one copy forward by some amount and the other backwards the same amount (say +45º and -45º) for a total shift of 90º.  Again, this is a constant phase shift across all frequencies.  Note that the process as implemented by the Miles gear quoted below only shifts frequencies above 100Hz, probably as a way of minimizing potential bass cancellation.  For a single channel mono recording you could simply shift one copy of the signal something like 90º, as there is no standard phase 'reference signal' like there is with multichannel applicaitons.

How to do it?  The easiest way is probably a plugin. Note that this type of thing is not the same at all as most Phase Shifter type guitar effcts. This Voxengo plugin would do, there are probably others available form other sources:
PHA-979 is a professional audio AU and VST plugin which allows you to apply an arbitrary phase shift to sound material.  What is meant by the phase shift here is simultaneous shifting of all frequencies across the active frequency range of the signal by the given value in degrees.  This is achieved by linear-phase design.

I asked the developer (Aleksey Vaneev) about such a use on the Voxengo forum back in '08. Here is the thread and his suggestions.  Here is another related question on the same plug-in.


I'm posting here, now, because I recenty came across a website of a now defunct manufacturer of matrix gear that has some information about using the technique:
http://www.milestech.com/

Application Note #4
Studio and Production Applications of the MTI-3 TriSonic Imager

Synthesizing Stereo With SpreadSound

The SpreadSound function is a very effective way to synthesize a stereo signal from a monophonic program or signal source. Unlike other stereo synthesis techniques, it will not alter the frequency response of the signal nor create any audible delay or other type of distortion. It only adds a small amount of phase shift to the signal, which in itself is practically inaudible.

SpreadSound will create a big, spacious, yet totally clean version of a mono input signal. Either of the described connection approaches can provide excellent stereo synthesis. In addition to working perfectly with all stereo or TriSonic playback systems, the SpreadSound channels can be mixed back to mono with perfect results.


Multisonic Info
The Multisonic® Imaging System:
Introduction and Technical Description

SpreadSound

..a high-fidelity method of intentionally and accurately localizing a sound source across a space, rather than at a point. SpreadSound is used at the surround outputs of the M86 to prevent the surround signal, which once separated out is a single monophonic signal, from localizing as a phantom center between adjacent surround loudspeakers. Phantom localization is desirable across the front soundstage with stereo sources but is usually considered a detriment at the sides and rear of a surround system.

SpreadSound works by shifting the phase of the audio signal a constant relative amount. A pair of SpreadSound outputs is designed to have a relative phase shift of 90 degrees at all frequencies above 100 Hz. By keeping the output signals in quadrature phase, a spreading effect is realized with no phantom localization. The effect is unnecessary below 100 Hz; at these lowest frequencies localization by humans does not occur. In this frequency range the signal is left in phase to maximize the low-frequency power output and the loudspeaker-array efficiency.

The SpreadSound circuit can be used with any monophonic program material to create a big, spread-out sound. With Multisonic Imaging, a mono source will focus tightly to the center. If a large soundstage is desired instead, such as with a mono music source, SpreadSound is a great way to achieve it without any of the detrimental side effects typical of stereo synthesis techniques.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline dactylus

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Re: Converting Mono to Stereo
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2010, 10:30:20 AM »
^
Lee,

Thank you for your very interesting and insightful input, as always!!   +T
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 10:37:22 AM by dactylus »
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