Topic: Volume Envelope (loud crowd between songs)

[todd e]

So here's the situation:

I ran for Patterson Hood on Sunday, and it was a seated affair.  I was the only taper and I knew that ther crowd would be pretty loud between soungs, so I set my levels lower on purpose, to avoid any clips.  I also ran 24/96, which will come into play later.

Sure enough the recording sounds good during the music part, will probably still need some compression (i think?), but my question is regarding volume envelopes and what other people typically do.  Do you typically set a new point, before, during and after the crowd ROAR?  and then drop the point of the volume envelope lower to match the levels prior to the crowd ROAR?

Any tips for volume enveloping?  I typically don't mess with any editing at all, but being the only taper, I feel obliged.

EDIT: FIGURED THIS OUT Second question, with 5 file (24/96), i'm doing the editing in an audio montage (in order to access volume envelope)  the files are separate, due to WAV constraints.  When the file splits, there is an audible 'blip' in the montage.  How does one get volume envelope to work across many files, in the montage?

Thanks for anyone's tips or advice, in advance.

[Brian Skalinder]

Not a direct answer to any of your questions, but...

...I'd use compression instead of the volume envelope.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=73882.msg990044#msg990044
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=28449.0
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=20266.0
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=9124.msg107047#msg107047

[todd e]

thanks brian.  i had found some of those links and it poses another problem.  i've never done any compression before, and i'm using wavelab.  i'll get into the help menu, but i didn't know if you had done this in SF or Wavelab.  thanks again.

[georgeh]

whoops, i guess i didn't see your post right under me tito. guess i'll check those sites out myself

[Brian Skalinder]

thanks brian.  i had found some of those links and it poses another problem.  i've never done any compression before, and i'm using wavelab.  i'll get into the help menu, but i didn't know if you had done this in SF or Wavelab.  thanks again.

The concept's obviously the same in WL, just different interface for accomplishing the same thing.  In WaveLab, main menu Process | Dynamics.  Start with the default Attack, Hold, and Release times.  Then try adjusting the threshold and ratio just as you would in any other compressor.  Takes some trial and error until you find what works for your specific situation and ears, so play around a bit.  (For the experiential learners out there, this may help:  when first learning a new feature, try applying extreme values to the settings to get a sense for how it works.  Once you have a feel for the impact each setting has on the output, start refining the settings until you reach a solution that works for your specific issue / environment.)

This post has the most detail, I think:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=9124.msg107047#msg107047

[BayTaynt3d]

I use a combination of volume envelopes (aka "automation") and compression all of the time. For this purpose, either could work, and a combination of both might be even better. If you've never used a compressor before, for this task (lowering audience), I'd set the threshold near the peaks of the music, and use a high ratio -- that will leave the music dynamics mostly untouched and have the compression kick in when the crowd comes in. With respect to envelopes, try to change the levels as the change in clapping comes in/out. For example, start your envelope right before the crowd starts clapping, and end your envelope right as the crowd's clapping starts to peak. Then, do the opposite on the way out, start the envelope right before the crowd starts to mellow with the clapping, and end the envelope right after the crowd is done clapping. I've found that to be the least noticeable technique, but YMMV. This way you are only changing the volume during the times when the volume is already changing (clapping coming in or going out), and you're NOT changing the volume when the volume is constant (during the period where the volume of the clapping is constant) -- so the envelope ramps down as the clapping comes in, stays flat (and lower) during the time the clapping continues, and then ramps back up during the clapping trailing off. Also, try using different types of fades (fast, slow, smooth, linear) to see which one sounds the least obvious. At least that's my two cents...

[capnhook]

+t     I agree with what BayTaynt3d sez about volume envelopes...... use Audacity's volume envelope tool and pull the volume down in any shape you like during the loud applause......play around with the tool a little bit --- you're not just stuck using variable sloping fades ----- put in a bunch of points and pull the attenuatung curve shape around into anything you want.  Fine tune that even further by separating the left and right channels and putting slightly different attenuating curves on each.  It kind of "disguises what you're doing".  Use your ear......do what sounds good and don't be afraid drag the applause down quite a bit.  Went and taped my nephew Kyle's middle school band's (and jazz band's) winter concert last night......that was fun.  Lotsa places to pull the applause down ------ Audacity worked like a charm again.

VIVA AUDACITY! 

[todd e]

thanks again to everyone, i'm slowly figuring out compression.  i've gone through a few test compressions (combined with normalizing) vs. volume envelope (combined with gain raising) and i prefer the compression technique. 

i'm gonna see how the entire show sounds, with each type, next.  maybe i'll post a comp between the two.

+T to all.

[Brian Skalinder]

thanks again to everyone, i'm slowly figuring out compression.  i've gone through a few test compressions (combined with normalizing) vs. volume envelope (combined with gain raising) and i prefer the compression technique.

+T for doing your own experimentation and listening instead of blindly following what others suggest.

[todd e]

plus the work flow is SOOOO variable with either path, it really comes down to how much time
you want to spend on the mastering, so to speak.

maybe i should say, there are soo many different ways and methods to use, it's kinda overwhelming.

[Brian Skalinder]

plus the work flow is SOOOO variable with either path, it really comes down to how much time
you want to spend on the mastering, so to speak.

There's a learning curve for both volume envelopes and compression.  But over time I've found compression much easier and faster to apply to achieve my desired results.  Volume envelopes, while powerful, take me far longer to apply to achieve similar results.  But maybe I just haven't spent enough time on the volume envelope learning curve.  At any rate, fun to tinker around with both!

[capnhook]

Fun to tinker, for sure!

One more thing to point out ----- I think an advantage of spending a little more time to pick out each instance of loud applause (using volume envelopes) outweighs the chance of applying a compressor or limiter to the entire audio file, changing the whole recording (if that's what one is doing).  I worked hard to record all that dynamic range ---- why risk squashing any of it?  Using volume envelopes, I can be sure I'm not touching any of the audio I don't want to change, and I can graphically see what I'm doing to the area of program material I'm changing.

+t's      this place rocks!

[Brian Skalinder]

One more thing to point out ----- I think an advantage of spending a little more time to pick out each instance of loud applause (using volume envelopes) outweighs the chance of applying a compressor or limiter to the entire audio file, changing the whole recording (if that's what one is doing).

FWIW, it's easy to select only applause ranges - and not the whole file - for applying compression, too.  This is what I usually do.

[todd e]

One more thing to point out ----- I think an advantage of spending a little more time to pick out each instance of loud applause (using volume envelopes) outweighs the chance of applying a compressor or limiter to the entire audio file, changing the whole recording (if that's what one is doing).

FWIW, it's easy to select only applause ranges - and not the whole file - for applying compression, too.  This is what I usually do.

exactly what i ended up doing. 

1) selecting range of crowd spike, definiting the boundaries of the spike with markers
2) apply compression
3) re-listen, and adjust as needed
4) remove 'temp' markers

[capnhook]

One more thing to point out ----- I think an advantage of spending a little more time to pick out each instance of loud applause (using volume envelopes) outweighs the chance of applying a compressor or limiter to the entire audio file, changing the whole recording (if that's what one is doing).

FWIW, it's easy to select only applause ranges - and not the whole file - for applying compression, too.  This is what I usually do.

exactly what i ended up doing. 

1) selecting range of crowd spike, definiting the boundaries of the spike with markers
2) apply compression
3) re-listen, and adjust as needed
4) remove 'temp' markers

On a related subject, you know how you inevitably get the guy in the left (or right) channel that's clapping loudly??........after you finish up compressing and/or attenuating, go back and separate the stereo track, and try a low-threshold, ultra-fast attack, hold, and release on those "pop, pop, pops" on the offending channel................it can help make them less noticeable.   

edit - fat fingers