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Author Topic: Discussion: DITHER Comp, v4  (Read 13542 times)

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Offline scb

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i used to use powr3 all the time.  then i switched to megabitmax.  maybe i should finally listen to see if i hear a difference....

Offline pfife

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Hey brian, concerning the L2 - you say that you had "all compression settings turned off" - is there an on/off button, or did you have the threshold, out cehiling, and release each set to a certain volume?

I'm about to get into the 24-bit realm (just purchased an R1) and L2 is the only peice of software I have to do dithering... and I'd like to have it maintain as much purity as possible to the 24bit file... I just don't know didley about compression, enough to turn the settings to a point where they'd not affect the sound.

Thanks.

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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concerning the L2 - you say that you had "all compression settings turned off" - is there an on/off button, or did you have the threshold, out cehiling, and release each set to a certain volume?

No real on/off button.  Just set Threshold / Out Ceiling to 0 and disable ARC off.  I don't think the ARC setting makes any difference if the Threshold and Out Ceiling are both set to 0 - if there's nothing to limit (b/c the Threshold is set to 0), then the release time is never needed.
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Offline pfife

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concerning the L2 - you say that you had "all compression settings turned off" - is there an on/off button, or did you have the threshold, out cehiling, and release each set to a certain volume?

No real on/off button.  Just set Threshold / Out Ceiling to 0 and disable ARC off.  I don't think the ARC setting makes any difference if the Threshold and Out Ceiling are both set to 0 - if there's nothing to limit (b/c the Threshold is set to 0), then the release time is never needed.

THanks man!  As always, you're very helpful!
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Well, after listening to the point that I want to smack my head into a wall repeatedly, I'm ready to post...

I'm really curious to hear others' feedback on the comp.  Anyone willing to toss a few thoughts out there?  Remember, there's no right or wrong answer - whatever your ears and brain perceive as most enjoyable is what counts.  If we all agreed, we wouldn't have all these great options.  And if you can't tell the difference, that's useful information for yourself and perhaps others, too.

Playback
Next time I do my testing, I'll have my PC hooked up to the main playback system in my office, but I didn't get it done in time for this comp.  So for this listening session:  PC > Waveterminal 2496 (coax) > smART DI/O DAC > AKG K501 headphones.  I admit I mostly listened to the WSP sample as I quickly got my fill in each of several listening sessions before I even got to the YMSB sample.

Summary
For overall sound, I preferred MBIT+ due to my perception of its retaining the most detail from the 24b source throughout the range (smoother overall sound) and reproducing the soundstage very well.  Waves IDR took a close second, but lost a touch of bass and soundstaging detail and I found the highs, while detailed, a smidgen fatiguing (I think I'll try a different noise shaping scheme next time).  POWR3 and UV22HR sounded somewhat similar to my ears in the loss of HF detail and a resulting etchiness, with POWR3 exhibiting better mid detail and a more natural soundstage.  CEP and WL's internal dither v. the others - readily noticeable difference, though I preferred WL's internal to CEP by quite a bit.  Bottom line for me:  while I prefer MBIT+ and IDR to the others in this particular case, POWR3 and UV22HR sound mighty fine and I'd be happy with any of these 4 options.  But since I have a choice...  :)

My notes...

Cool Edit Pro TPDF
  • noticeble loss of detail throughout the range
  • reduced bass extension / impact
  • mids more up-front than others
  • strident highs, spitty, fatiguing
  • flattened soundstage
.
Waves IDR
  • slight loss of bass extension / impact v. 24b; better detail than CEP, UV22HR, POWR3, WL Internal
  • retained mids detail well, more than UV22HR, POWR3, similar to MBIT+
  • smoother / more detailed highs than UV22HR, POWR3, similar detail to MBIT+, but something in the HF bugs me just a bit - may have to try another NS setting
  • retains soundstaging well, better than UV22HR, POWR3, not quite as well as MBIT+
.
iZotope Ozone MBIT+
  • very close bass extension / detail relative to 24b, slight loss of impact
  • mids rich and full, close to 24b sound
  • similar HF detail to IDR, more than the others
  • best 16b overall detail and soundstaging
.
Powr Consortium POWR3
  • best bass extension and impact of the bunch (woof), but seems a touch looser somehow than the other 16b sources (maybe a playback gear issue?)
  • mids not as detailed as IDR, MBIT+, more detailed than UV22HR
  • highs not as detailed as IDR/MBIT+, spittier, etchier a la UV22HR
  • better soundstaging than UV22HR, not as open and natural as IDR, MBIT+
.
Truncated
  • loss of detail across the board (big surprise there, eh!)
  • spitty highs and transients
  • screwy soundstage
  • edgy
.
Apogee UV22HR
  • reduced bass extension, but more pronounced upper bass / low mids the others
  • something's just not right for me in the mids - maybe not blending well to my ears from the more pronounced upper bass / low mids into the rest of the mid range;  something's just...missing
  • less detailed, etchy highs (maybe due to no noise shaping options implemented with WL's UV22HR implementation?)
  • somewhat etchy soundstage, like there's more pronounced instrument separation (even than the master) - I think this is what initially drew me (and perhaps draws others) to UV22HR, but ultimately I found it slightly unnatural and fatiguing
.
Wavelab Internal
  • loss of bass detail / extension, but not bad!
  • mids more recessed (guitar, keys, vocals), lost detail
  • big loss in HF detail, extension, but not nearly as fatiguing as CEP TPDF
  • flattened soundstage
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Offline sygdwm

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id like to hear your take on the office playback. i dont use phones really.
mics: (4)akg c460b(a60,mk46,ck1x,ck1,ck2,ck3,ck61,ck63)
pres: oade m148/edirol wmod ua5
recorders: marantz stock671/oade acm671/fostex busman vintage fr2le

(P.S.: On a threaded discussion board like this one, there's no need to repeat someone's post when you reply to them; everyone can see all the messages in the thread.)

Offline Brian Skalinder

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id like to hear your take on the office playback. i dont use phones really.

I should have the office setup together in the next couple weeks.  Any thoughts from your end using speakers, since you don't use headphones?
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Offline sygdwm

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i plan on doing that tomorrow as i have only glanced over it w/ my comp spoeakers. will report back though. my playback is low-fi fwiw.
mics: (4)akg c460b(a60,mk46,ck1x,ck1,ck2,ck3,ck61,ck63)
pres: oade m148/edirol wmod ua5
recorders: marantz stock671/oade acm671/fostex busman vintage fr2le

(P.S.: On a threaded discussion board like this one, there's no need to repeat someone's post when you reply to them; everyone can see all the messages in the thread.)

Offline Chuck

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OK, so what's the cheapest way/place to get MBIT+™ Dither?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
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Offline Ed.

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pm if you're interested.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2005, 10:50:28 AM by Brian Skalinder »


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Offline Brian Skalinder

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The comparison is now available on tapers.org in the gear comparisons directory.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2005, 12:14:05 PM by Brian Skalinder »
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Discussion: DITHER Comp, v3
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2006, 05:08:56 AM »
Bump for v3.  Added three freeware dithering apps/plug-ins:

- Audacity (two samples)
- Maxim Digital Audio (three samples)
- R8Brain (one sample, thanks to Teddy for the recommendation)

If anyone has recommendations for freeware dithering solutions, whether standalone apps (a la R8Brain) or VST plug-ins (sorry, not interested in DirectX at the moment), let me know and I'll try to add them to the list.

See original post for complete info.
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Discussion: DITHER Comp, v4
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2007, 08:35:23 AM »
so where does one find this MBIT+ ?, is it a wavlab plugin ?

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Discussion: DITHER Comp, v4
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2007, 12:18:44 PM »
so where does one find this MBIT+ ?, is it a wavlab plugin ?

The only place I know of to get it:  as part of the iZotope Ozone 3 mastering system.  Just like with IDR dither in the Waves L2 plugin, one simply does not use the other features of the mastering plugin in order to use the MBIT+ dither.

IMO, Samplitude ($50) + iZotope Ozone ($250) makes for the best affordable post-production toolset going (AFAIK).
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Offline macdaddy

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Re: Discussion: DITHER Comp, v4
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2007, 02:20:19 PM »
i think i paid a bit more for samplitude, and i agree, it smokes! havent tried izotope, but i might have to check it out...

thanks for all the work on this.

+t
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akg c422 > s42 > lunatec v2 > ad2k+ > roland r-44

 

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