Topic: Bypassing a R-09 internal preamp. Is it possible?

[Dede2002]

First of all, sorry about my lack of knowledge. Excuse me in advance if I'm saying nonsense here.
My sole purpose on this board is to learn.

Questions:

Can I bypass my R-09's internal mics and use an external preamp only? I mean really eliminate the internal pre.
Would it work?

Thanks

[Belexes]

I may be wrong, but I think if you use the input jack on the R-09 you factor out the pre. Others may need to weigh in.

I run the CA 9100 > R-09 input.

[reverser]

Yes.  Several options.  You would go into line in on the R-09.

It depends on the application.

For Stealth:

Church Audio makes one that is supposed to be good: CA-9100 I believe, do a search.

I just recently found this one which I am trying to get feedback on (see the post below yours):
http://www.felmicamps.co.uk/products/felbattpreamp.html

You can listen to a sample into an R-09 on their site which IMO is drastically better with their preamp.  There is some serious noise on the R-09's internal preamp it would seem.

For Open:

I think I am best to defer to some of the experts here for their opinion.  There are many great options out there but I'll leave that one to the pros to make a recommendation on a specific unit.

[Dede2002]

I may be wrong, but I think if you use the input jack on the R-09 you factor out the pre. Others may need to weigh in.

I run the CA 9100 > R-09 input.

Thanks.
But which input are you talking about? I only run Line In and, yes, the internal preamp is there.

[reverser]

I may be wrong, but I think if you use the input jack on the R-09 you factor out the pre. Others may need to weigh in.

I run the CA 9100 > R-09 input.

Thanks.
But which input are you talking about? I only run Line In and, yes, the internal preamp is there.

So you are trying to eliminate all amplification by the R-09, and not just avoid the noisy mic inputs?

[Dede2002]

I may be wrong, but I think if you use the input jack on the R-09 you factor out the pre. Others may need to weigh in.

I run the CA 9100 > R-09 input.

Thanks.
But which input are you talking about? I only run Line In and, yes, the internal preamp is there.

So you are trying to eliminate all amplification by the R-09, and not just avoid the noisy mic inputs?

Yes. Eliminate all amplification. I don't know about the mic inputs. I only run Line In.
Appreciate all responses

[Dede2002]

Yes.  Several options.  You would go into line in on the R-09.

It depends on the application.

For Stealth:

Church Audio makes one that is supposed to be good: CA-9100 I believe, do a search.

I just recently found this one which I am trying to get feedback on (see the post below yours):
http://www.felmicamps.co.uk/products/felbattpreamp.html

You can listen to a sample into an R-09 on their site which IMO is drastically better with their preamp.  There is some serious noise on the R-09's internal preamp it would seem.

For Open:

I think I am best to defer to some of the experts here for their opinion.  There are many great options out there but I'll leave that one to the pros to make a recommendation on a specific unit.

I've heard these samples and the difference is awesome. Seems to be a nice and very well built unit.
Thanks a lot

[evilchris]

search for "r-09 unity gain" on these boards.

lots of discussion on how to get the r-09's internal pre out of the mix.

[illconditioned]

AFAIK, the "preamp" is always there, whether mic in or line in.
Just the gain changes.  I don't know where the official "zero gain" is, but running line in at a moderate level,
say #15/30, might be a good guess.

Unlike Minidisc, for example, there is only one gain stage, marked "PGA" (programmabable gain) on the block diagram (*).  Minidisc has a separate mic gain stage, so basically two PGA stages, one for mic and a second for line.  So, putting line in on the MD you *do* avoid an extra gain stage, but not so on the Edirol.

(*) The chip is Burr Brown, "tlv320aic32", if you want to look at the specs in detail.  This is a single chip that does everything, mic/line in, ADC, MP3 compression (if applicable), headphone amp, etc.  The good news is there are no external parts for Edirol to mess up.  The bad news is no "mods" for me to do, lol.

  Richard

[Dede2002]

AFAIK, the "preamp" is always there, whether mic in or line in.
Just the gain changes.  I don't know where the official "zero gain" is, but running line in at a moderate level,
say #15/30, might be a good guess.

Unlike Minidisc, for example, there is only one gain stage, marked "PGA" (programmabable gain) on the block diagram (*).  Minidisc has a separate mic gain stage, so basically two PGA stages, one for mic and a second for line.  So, putting line in on the MD you *do* avoid an extra gain stage, but not so on the Edirol.

(*) The chip is Burr Brown, "tlv320aic32", if you want to look at the specs in detail.  This is a single chip that does everything, mic/line in, ADC, MP3 compression (if applicable), headphone amp, etc.  The good news is there are no external parts for Edirol to mess up.  The bad news is no "mods" for me to do, lol.

  Richard

Great info. Appreciate it. 
I'd heard lots of things about the R-09 unity gain setting. I've seen 8, 13 and even 18. I really don't know what to think.
But I'd love to know.

[Belexes]

I'd heard lots of things about the R-09 unity gain setting. I've seen 8, 13 and even 18. I really don't know what to think.
But I'd love to know.

It's one of those great taper mysteries. I think the factory reset is 13, but yes, I have seen 8 and other settings used.

[guysonic]

Mic/Line input jacks feed different inputs of a SINGLE CODEC IC so knowing the internal (block diagram) of the CODEC IC is needed and seem to remember someone claiming to have found which IC was being used.

So it does seem using LINE input jack is only option and I also found it excellent using external preamplifier.  See review link to thunder and other recordings done with R-09+external pre.

www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm

[Dede2002]

Mic/Line input jacks feed different inputs of a SINGLE CODEC IC so knowing the internal (block diagram) of the CODEC IC is needed and seem to remember someone claiming to have found which IC was being used.

So it does seem using LINE input jack is only option and I also found it excellent using external preamplifier.  See review link to thunder and other recordings done with R-09+external pre.

www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm

So it can be done or not?

[bonghitwillie]

yeah i am confused too.  i only go in line level.  normally record around 20-25.  the r-9 is pretty noisy during quiet passages.

[Dede2002]

yeah i am confused too.  i only go in line level.  normally record around 20-25.  the r-9 is pretty noisy during quiet passages.

That's right. It gets really noise when you set your levels above 20. Under 20 for loud music is quite nice.
I'm told the performance is much, much,much better using a pre like CA 9100 ( which I'm trying to purchase).
From what I've been reading, the best scenario would be R-09 plus CA 9100 with no amplification at all on the R-09. But I'm not educated enough on this matter. Maybe I'm asking for a impossible thing.