Topic: Adobe Audition 5.0 & 6.0 ruins seamless WAV splits when using "Open append"

[OMA]

As you know, when recording a WAV file which gets over 2 GB, the Sony PCM-M10 continues recording into a new WAV file.
I'm not sure why it splits in 2 GB, since I thought the limitation with FAT32 was 4 GB files, not 2 GB.

Anyway, when merging all the files back, I'm noticing a not very loud but still slightly noticeable click between files. Is this normal with files created with the M10? This small click between files is not very important, but still I'd prefer if it could be avoided.

I'm using Adobe Audition to merge the files. I just open the first one, and then I use the option "File / Open append / With current file" to append another file, and so on.

_{Edit: I've modified the subject to better reflect the problem}

[Toke]

I use Sonar X2, and don't get any clicks.  (Ctrl + End to get to the end of 'part 1' then file insert audio to add 'part 2'.)  What does it look like when you zoom in?  Are you altering the first part at all before appending?  For example, I could see cutting the opening crowd out before appending part 2 causing a sector boundary issue.

[vanark]

Absolutely no problems with seamless splits.  I join the WAV files using shntool.

I think you should change the topic to a problem with Adobe Audition, not the Sony PCM-M10.

[bombdiggity]

I've not had any issue with Audition.  What version are you using?  I do Open Append though don't recall seeing a "with current file" step in it.  I'd make sure a default is not set somewhere to append on sector boundaries or anything that adds a gap (the end of recording time may not be on a sector boundary).  If you zoom into the merge area you should be able to see what the issue is.  I'd suspect a gap is being introduced inadvertently. 

[OMA]

Hi. I'm using Adobe Audition CC 6.0 (not to be confused with CS6, which is really Audition 5.0).

So, is Audition CC failing in something as trivial as merging WAV files?

I can certainly see what seems like a very small gap if I zoom a lot into the split. I thought this was a problem with the WAVs, not with Audition.

@bombdiggity: What version of Audition are you using?

[bombdiggity]

Hi. I'm using Adobe Audition CC 6.0 (not to be confused with CS6, which is really Audition 5.0).

So, is Audition CC failing in something as trivial as merging WAV files?

I can certainly see what seems like a very small gap if I zoom a lot into the split. I thought this was a problem with the WAVs, not with Audition.

@bombdiggity: What version of Audition are you using?

Yeah check your default settings. 

Audition should show a marker at the end of the initial file/start of the appended.  Which side is the gap on? 

You can look at your original wavs at the same zoom and see if there is a gap at the tail or top but I very much doubt it.  Zoomed close you can also see if the arc of the two wav files meets at the end of one/start of the other.  I bet they do.  In which case there should be no gap or skip when joined. 

if as above that means this version of Audition is somehow appending some space in there.   I suspect appending enough to make the initial file end on a sector boundary or other time point rather than just leaving the recorded file alone.  Or perhaps it is padding the initial file by some amount when you append (like when you do track splits it can add a fixed gap at the end of each track).  Check the defaults/help carefully and you'll probably find the setting/s in question. 

If you can't find the setting you can always zoom in real close and delete that gap which should give you a clean join.  That would be a PITA though.  I'm sure there's something to look for to stop the padding. 

I'm using 3.0 (from which consensus seems to have it we should not stray to newer versions).  The issue I have now is on my new computer with Windows 7 I can't get AA 3.0 to stay installed.  I had a struggle to get it installed but now if I close the program I have to "repair" the install.  I still don't want to try any newer of theirs though.  That's maybe another thread though... 

[OMA]

Audition should show a marker at the end of the initial file/start of the appended.  Which side is the gap on? 

The small gap is at the right side, just after the marker.

You can look at your original wavs at the same zoom and see if there is a gap at the tail or top but I very much doubt it.

You're right. The original WAVs don't have any gap. I just assumed it was a problem with the WAVs.

if as above that means this version of Audition is somehow appending some space in there.   I suspect appending enough to make the initial file end on a sector boundary or other time point rather than just leaving the recorded file alone.  Or perhaps it is padding the initial file by some amount when you append (like when you do track splits it can add a fixed gap at the end of each track).  Check the defaults/help carefully and you'll probably find the setting/s in question. 

But why does it do that? It doesn't make sense. Appending a WAV doesn't necessarily mean you want to make an exact CD split at that particular location. Using the "Open append" option should just append a WAV at the end and that's it.

If you can't find the setting you can always zoom in real close and delete that gap which should give you a clean join.  That would be a PITA though.  I'm sure there's something to look for to stop the padding. 

That just creates a more audible click, unless done perfectly.

I'm using 3.0 (from which consensus seems to have it we should not stray to newer versions).  The issue I have now is on my new computer with Windows 7 I can't get AA 3.0 to stay installed.  I had a struggle to get it installed but now if I close the program I have to "repair" the install.  I still don't want to try any newer of theirs though.  That's maybe another thread though...

I'll try with Audition 3.0 in the future. In my case I don't have those problems with it in Windows 7.

[bombdiggity]

Audition should show a marker at the end of the initial file/start of the appended.  Which side is the gap on? 

The small gap is at the right side, just after the marker.

You can look at your original wavs at the same zoom and see if there is a gap at the tail or top but I very much doubt it.

You're right. The original WAVs don't have any gap. I just assumed it was a problem with the WAVs.

if as above that means this version of Audition is somehow appending some space in there.   I suspect appending enough to make the initial file end on a sector boundary or other time point rather than just leaving the recorded file alone.  Or perhaps it is padding the initial file by some amount when you append (like when you do track splits it can add a fixed gap at the end of each track).  Check the defaults/help carefully and you'll probably find the setting/s in question. 

But why does it do that? It doesn't make sense. Appending a WAV doesn't necessarily mean you want to make an exact CD split at that particular location. Using the "Open append" option should just append a WAV at the end and that's it.

Indeed.  Good question for Adobe.  Given the gap is being inserted along with what it appended it seems to be either a setting or flaw in the append process...  Nothing to do with the initial file or anything it is doing to that part (just what it does when it adds material to the starter segment). 

FWIW : Does it add a gap in front of the first segment (at 0:00)?  Just curious...   

If you can't find the setting you can always zoom in real close and delete that gap which should give you a clean join.  That would be a PITA though.  I'm sure there's something to look for to stop the padding. 

That just creates a more audible click, unless done perfectly.

Splice enough old cassette transfers or glitches in digital recordings and you may be surprised precisely how perfect one can get at it.  It is a learned skill (or perhaps a knack as well).  At any rate even with a bad job the click should disappear since Adobe (at least used to) smooth the splice so the tiny bit between the two chunks if you miss would be interpolated...  That's the way it used to work anyway...  It's cheating but sort of bulletproofs it for those who aren't detail oriented.  Zoomed close enough even a sloppy job becomes transparent (not that I recommend that).

I'm using 3.0 (from which consensus seems to have it we should not stray to newer versions).  The issue I have now is on my new computer with Windows 7 I can't get AA 3.0 to stay installed.  I had a struggle to get it installed but now if I close the program I have to "repair" the install.  I still don't want to try any newer of theirs though.  That's maybe another thread though...

I'll try with Audition 3.0 in the future. In my case I don't have those problems with it in Windows 7.

The gap issue should be fixable but who knows...  My impression is the program has gone to seed... 

I have Win 7 Pro (64-bit).  Not sure if that is the issue or it is in the installer (though the set I'm using came straight off Adobe's site).  I think I need CDs but lost mine of that version. 

[OMA]

Well, I can confirm that the "Open append" option in Adobe Audition 3.0 works fine. It doesn't add any gaps between WAVs. After the complete software rewrite of Audition 4.0, Adobe really dropped the ball with that program. It never got to the level of 3.0, even with the latest 6.0 version, which is more like 4.2 (and 5.0 was like if it were 4.1), just a small improvement over 4.0. The only upside is it's really faster than 3.0, but if I get glitches such as this, I guess I can live with the speed in 3.0.

BTW, about your question: There is no gap at the beginning, because I just use the regular "Open" option. BTW, in a previous post you were wondering about the extra step in "Open append"... I don't get why, but now there are two "Open append" options in Audition 6.0. When clicking "Open append" you get a submenu with two options:

- To new
- To current

The "To current" option is the same as always. It appends the file at the end of the current one (albeit with a stupid gap in between).
The "To new" option creates a new empty file and then appends the file to that empty new file.

What's the point to that "To New" option? I don't know. That's practically the same as opening the file with the regular "File / Open" option. The only difference is that with "Open append / To new" the opened file is an "Untitled" file. Maybe it's just to work in an alternate copy, instead of working with the original file. But then I wouldn't call that option "Open append to new". It's too convoluted. I would call it "Open as new copy" or something like that.

Well, to sum everything up:
- The PCM-M10 does produce seamless WAVs, no problem
- The small gaps between WAVs are produced by Adobe Audition 5.0 and 6.0 (version 4.0 didn't have "Open append", can you believe it?)
- Adobe Audition 3.0 doesn't have this gap problem when using "Open append", which is probaby a bug in the newer versions

Thanks for reading

PS: I've reported the bug to Adobe, just in case. Also, I've edited the subject in this thread, since this is not the M10's fault.

[LikeASong]

it seemed strange to me that the M10, a recorded that's so highly regarded over here, had such a problem. I think that you're right aknowledging this problem is Audition's fault and not the recorder's. I hope that AUdition 3.0 works good for you from now on 

[bombdiggity]

Well, I can confirm that the "Open append" option in Adobe Audition 3.0 works fine. It doesn't add any gaps between WAVs. After the complete software rewrite of Audition 4.0, Adobe really dropped the ball with that program. It never got to the level of 3.0, even with the latest 6.0 version, which is more like 4.2 (and 5.0 was like if it were 4.1), just a small improvement over 4.0. The only upside is it's really faster than 3.0, but if I get glitches such as this, I guess I can live with the speed in 3.0.

PS: I've reported the bug to Adobe, just in case. Also, I've edited the subject in this thread, since this is not the M10's fault.

Interesting, bizarre, and good to know. 

Now I need to figure out why i can get a proper install of 3.0 on my new system...