Topic: 8-channel multi-track hard drive recorders?

[cyfan]

I'm looking for something that essentially meets the following specs:

- 8 separate channels of simultaneous recording (no phantom power required, although a couple channels would be nice)
- Recordings at least 16bit at 44.1 khz wav
- Enough hard drive storage for all eight tracks and two hours record time (assuming 20 gig would work)
- Ability to post-mix recordings either on the unit or after transfer of individual tracks to PC
- Internal power would kick ass, but I can live with plugging the thing in
- bonus points for portability


AND ... I'm hoping to keep the budget for this unit at $700 new or excellent condition used.
Should be coming into some cash soon and this is high on my list of wants...

Purpose would be multi-track recording using individual line-outs from a venue mixing board.

Tim

[cleantone]

I reccomend the interface route over any workstation unit. MOTU just put out a little "ultralite mobile" that has I think 10 line inputs or 8 line inputs and 2 mic preamps. It is one half a rack space and runs about $550. You can do 16/44.1k or higher up to 24/96k depending on your hardware. This is a firewire unit. This does not have any hard drive storage so you need a laptop. I have never heard anyone be fully happy with a "workstation" situation.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UltraLite/

[TNJazz]

Alesis HD24 (well, for an extra $100 or so used...)

You could look into some of the Tascam Porta stuff as well, although the quality may not be what you're looking for (converters)

[cleantone]

Alesis HD24

Triple your budget and your all set. 

[TNJazz]

Alesis HD24

Triple your budget and your all set. 

Well, he did say exc. cond used.  I got mine for $850 shipped and it's in excellent condition...

[cleantone]

Well, he did say exc. cond used.  I got mine for $850 shipped and it's in excellent condition...

Thats a wicked deal. I'm looking at getting one as I told you before. I defintily want the one with better converters. I normally lke to buy new but might look for used in good condition for this unit if and when.

[cyfan]

I reccomend the interface route over any workstation unit. MOTU just put out a little "ultralite mobile" that has I think 10 line inputs or 8 line inputs and 2 mic preamps. It is one half a rack space and runs about $550. You can do 16/44.1k or higher up to 24/96k depending on your hardware. This is a firewire unit. This does not have any hard drive storage so you need a laptop. I have never heard anyone be fully happy with a "workstation" situation.

Thanks but the internal HD is non-negotiable for me. I don't have a laptop and it clearly doesn't fit in my budget. FWIW, I've been multi-tracking with multiple JB3s but I'm sick of synching the fucking things up. But I do appreciate the ability, once it is synched, to mix the channels post instead of on the fly at the show.

[Chuck]

I used the M-Audio Delta 1010 at work. It worked for about 5 years, never being turned off. I died just last week. We got the MOTU 2408 to replace it. The 2408 seems to be working fine.

[cleantone]

Thanks but the internal HD is non-negotiable for me. I don't have a laptop and it clearly doesn't fit in my budget. FWIW, I've been multi-tracking with multiple JB3s but I'm sick of synching the fucking things up. But I do appreciate the ability, once it is synched, to mix the channels post instead of on the fly at the show.

Oh. I'd be sick of the syncing too. I pretty much wont matrix anything done with different clocks anymore. PITA!! Maybe you can find a deal like TNJazz mentioned. Otherwise I have no recomendations.

Good luck.

[live2496]

I haven't used one of these, but anything Yamaha is usually very good in quality...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-AW4416-Digital-Multitrack-Recorder-EXCELLENT_W0QQitemZ7409871770QQcategoryZ85867QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

You can mixdown to CDR right on the recorder.

(Not sure how you get individual tracks out of it. Maybe SPDIF).

[TNJazz]

Well, he did say exc. cond used.  I got mine for $850 shipped and it's in excellent condition...

Thats a wicked deal. I'm looking at getting one as I told you before. I defintily want the one with better converters. I normally lke to buy new but might look for used in good condition for this unit if and when.

The HD24 is easily the best thing I've bought in recent memory.  It just works.  Had one weird thing happen with it the other night, but all in all a rock solid dependable machine.

Dirk

FWIW, I didn't hold out for the XR version because I use outboard A/D so I have no need for the converters in the Alesis.  If you're going in lightpipe, the units are identical in every way.

[cleantone]

Had one weird thing happen with it the other night, but all in all a rock solid dependable machine.

So what happened? Was it machine or human error ?

What are you using for A/D? I probably cannot afford 24 channels of A/D but the XR version might be possible. Are the converters awful on the normal unit? How so if yes?

[cyfan]

The HD24 is easily the best thing I've bought in recent memory.  It just works. Dirk

There's some refurbs on eBay for $800.
Can you move the individual tracks from the HD24 to a computer for mastering? If so, how?
Or do you have to do it on the unit itself.

tim

[TNJazz]

Had one weird thing happen with it the other night, but all in all a rock solid dependable machine.

So what happened? Was it machine or human error ?

What are you using for A/D? I probably cannot afford 24 channels of A/D but the XR version might be possible. Are the converters awful on the normal unit? How so if yes?

Not sure.  I had one of the drives out of the unit for a couple of days on the fireport, and I think I unplugged the fireport without turning it off at some point.  Put the drive caddy back in and the machine told me the drive was an invalid format (several times).  Took it off and hooked it back to the fireport - no problems reading the tracks.  Did a proper shutdown and stuck the caddy back in - booted right up and the files were intact.  Weird.  I'd say operator error caused a machine fault.

A/D is a combination of RME (Fireface), Mackie (Onyx 800R x 2) and Presonus (DigiMax).  Keep in mind there are no preamps in the HD24; only line inputs.

I don't think the converters are awful, but I don't use them because the other converters I have are better than the stock Alesis ones, plus I need the preamps because I'm typically not getting line level signals.  Their limiting factor is that they only go up to 48kHz - the XR version converters are better quality and go up to 96kHz.  I don't record at 96kHz at the present time, but I could because the regular HD24 does support 96kHz via lightpipe (12 inputs only).

24 channels of good quality A/D is not as expensive as you might think though.

Tim, you can move tracks via the Fireport (sold separately for about $199 new) or via built in ethernet (the HD24 acts like an FTP server and can be connected to any computer network).  After every show I back mine up and work on the project files in Nuendo.

[cleantone]

Thanks yet again +T

I have 18 channels of preamps at this time. I of course plan to buy more rack mount preamps as I am able. Presonus and Onyx probably would not be on the top of the list. But obviously possible. I don't record at 96K EVER either though have been able to for four years. I might have once. I think it is overkill and a storage gobbler. It has it's time and place but that is not a live rock concert IMO. A fair amount of the time I could get some line inputs when I need more than I have for preamps. Obviously 24 channels is more than enough for a lot of bands. At least ones I work with.

[TNJazz]

Thanks yet again +T

I have 18 channels of preamps at this time. I of course plan to buy more rack mount preamps as I am able. Presonus and Onyx probably would not be on the top of the list. But obviously possible. I don't record at 96K EVER either though have been able to for four years. I might have once. I think it is overkill and a storage gobbler. It has it's time and place but that is not a live rock concert IMO. A fair amount of the time I could get some line inputs when I need more than I have for preamps. Obviously 24 channels is more than enough for a lot of bands. At least ones I work with.

So what are you using for preamps?  Alesis converters are not bad at all, especially with good preamps in front of them.  I have a friend who still uses ADATs as his converters (although he does have very high end pres)

Dirk

[cyfan]

Tim, you can move tracks via the Fireport (sold separately for about $199 new) or via built in ethernet (the HD24 acts like an FTP server and can be connected to any computer network).  After every show I back mine up and work on the project files in Nuendo.

Thanks much for the input. I read somewhere that the HD24 lacks attenuation. Are you able to control the gain (plus AND minus) on each channel coming in?

Tim
+t for the prior aid

[TNJazz]

Tim, you can move tracks via the Fireport (sold separately for about $199 new) or via built in ethernet (the HD24 acts like an FTP server and can be connected to any computer network).  After every show I back mine up and work on the project files in Nuendo.

Thanks much for the input. I read somewhere that the HD24 lacks attenuation. Are you able to control the gain (plus AND minus) on each channel coming in?

Tim
+t for the prior aid

No, there are no controls for gain.  Another reason you need preamps, or a console with a friendly engineer perhaps?

[cleantone]

So what are you using for preamps?  Alesis converters are not bad at all, especially with good preamps in front of them.

Nothing too crazy. I haven't bough any gear in a couple years. I have a V3, 4 channels of Aphex 207, and a soundcraft spirit console for the other 12 pre's. If and when I can afford I would purchase various other preamps to add to the list. You know how that goes.

Are you saying that the regular (non XR) A/D's are decent? I'm sure they are decent or usable. It sounds like the big reason to get the XR is to do above 48khz recording then. Do you think that both units running at 48khz, one using the normal stock A/D and one with the XR stock A/D would have a big audible difference? I have MOTU 896 (non HD) currently for A/D so I imagine that would be comparible to this unit to some extent. It is not as if I have or could afford top of the line A/D anytime soon.

I wish units like this would at least have a line pad. I have interfaced with a lot of consoles that are sending a hot signal and at +4 line with no gain my MOTU units clip and the console doesn't show peaking. This would be coming of groups and sometimes directs too.

[TNJazz]

So what are you using for preamps?  Alesis converters are not bad at all, especially with good preamps in front of them.

Nothing too crazy. I haven't bough any gear in a couple years. I have a V3, 4 channels of Aphex 207, and a soundcraft spirit console for the other 12 pre's. If and when I can afford I would purchase various other preamps to add to the list. You know how that goes.

Are you saying that the regular (non XR) A/D's are decent? I'm sure they are decent or usable. It sounds like the big reason to get the XR is to do above 48khz recording then. Do you think that both units running at 48khz, one using the normal stock A/D and one with the XR stock A/D would have a big audible difference? I have MOTU 896 (non HD) currently for A/D so I imagine that would be comparible to this unit to some extent. It is not as if I have or could afford top of the line A/D anytime soon.

I wish units like this would at least have a line pad. I have interfaced with a lot of consoles that are sending a hot signal and at +4 line with no gain my MOTU units clip and the console doesn't show peaking. This would be coming of groups and sometimes directs too.

I have not done a direct comparison between the two, but the XR version's converters are newer and are somewhat higher quality than the original converters (simply because they are a more recent design and have benefitted from technology advances since the original HD24 was released).  Their main benefit is 96kHz via analog inputs however.  I don't know if the difference would be audible to most folks (if even at all) if both were run at 48kHz side by side.  I don't think the original HD24's analog converters are bad at all - Alesis makes a significant number of converters for other manufacturers, so it wouldn't be all that likely they'd stick crap in their own branded machines.

You can still do 96k on the original HD24, but only via lightpipe (and only a max of 12 because of S/MUX), so yes the big draw of the HD24XR is the ability to do 24 tracks of 96kHz.

I would rate the Alesis converters at least on par with the MOTU converters overall, at 48k.  Not a bad deal you've got there, with the pres and the console.  I like the Soundcraft preamps - I think they have a nice sound.  Haven't heard the Aphex in person but it looks nice and I've read some pretty good things about it.

And I agree, I wish there was a pad on the input, or at least a way to go from +4 to -10 with jumpers or something (maybe there is, I haven't looked too hard).
Dirk

[live2496]

The HD24 is easily the best thing I've bought in recent memory.  It just works. Dirk

There's some refurbs on eBay for $800.
Can you move the individual tracks from the HD24 to a computer for mastering? If so, how?
Or do you have to do it on the unit itself.

tim

The HD24 can be setup as an FTP server. This is one of the very cool features of it.
You can ftp in AIFF or WAV format. You setup an IP address for it and use a crossover cable to a laptop/desktop or use a straight thru cable and a switch. However the interface is 10 mbit, not fast by today's standards.

I have tried to plug an HD24 drive directly to a windows computer (IDE), but it can't recognize the partition. Alesis seems to have locked users out with that. Maybe it's a linux partition ?

As someone mentioned, there is no control over levels on the machine.

Gordon
 

[cleantone]

Is there a solo button? I REALLY hope so. If not what are you guys doing to monitor?

[TNJazz]

Is there a solo button? I REALLY hope so. If not what are you guys doing to monitor?

No solo button; no headphone out either.  It doesn't have a mixer or anything.

I don't monitor at all in a live situation.  I've never felt the need to do it.  If I wanted to I could run the lightpipes out of the HD24 and do it on the Fireface I guess.

[cyfan]

No solo button; no headphone out either.  It doesn't have a mixer or anything.

So any mixing of the individual tracks has to be done as a post mix on a PC or other mixing board?

tim

[cleantone]

So any mixing of the individual tracks has to be done as a post mix on a PC or other mixing board?

Yeah. Might as well thing of it as a tape machine. That is about it's only function. It records and playsback.

The monitoring doesn't surprise me but does bug the hell out of me. I don't know why these units don't have a solo button, headphone jack, and some sort of monitor output that could go to speakers. This means I would have to run into a console before the unit to monitor my signal. Help know if there is a ground buzz. To know if things are plugged in right. To make sure mic placement sounds good. That is discouraging to me. Does the unit pass signal as it records? If so you could make some sort of monitoring box with solo buttons and a heaphone amp. I'm glad I asked about this.

[TNJazz]

So any mixing of the individual tracks has to be done as a post mix on a PC or other mixing board?

Yeah. Might as well thing of it as a tape machine. That is about it's only function. It records and playsback.

The monitoring doesn't surprise me but does bug the hell out of me. I don't know why these units don't have a solo button, headphone jack, and some sort of monitor output that could go to speakers. This means I would have to run into a console before the unit to monitor my signal. Help know if there is a ground buzz. To know if things are plugged in right. To make sure mic placement sounds good. That is discouraging to me. Does the unit pass signal as it records? If so you could make some sort of monitoring box with solo buttons and a heaphone amp. I'm glad I asked about this.

yes it passes signal.  It's really just a 24 channel tape machine, minus the tape.  To do monitoring, soloing, etc. you'd need a board either in front or behind the box.

Come to think of it, it DOES have 24 analog outputs though.  You could probably plug a headphone amp into each channel as needed to "solo" the track for mic placement.  Hmmm, now you've got me thinking about a DIY project...

[cyfan]

I'm seriously considering getting one o' these HD24's ... and fairly soon.
While I actually would prefer to mix the tracks later on a PC, I'm troubled by the lack of control over the signal coming in.
If I get one, it sounds like I'll need some attenuators between the soundboard and the unit, which I can live with.
But...
While you can't monitor what you're recording, are there at least some meters to see whether any of the individual channels are clipping? That's been an issue for me in doing patchwork multi-tracks in the past...

If there's no monitors I'm exploring other options.

[bluegrass_brad]

Come to think of it, it DOES have 24 analog outputs though.  You could probably plug a headphone amp into each channel as needed to "solo" the track for mic placement.  Hmmm, now you've got me thinking about a DIY project...

this is exactly what I did in situations where I didnt have the ability to solo channels, but most if the time I did as our monitor board had an XLR split built in to it.  I would just solo on the board

[bluegrass_brad]

I'm seriously considering getting one o' these HD24's ... and fairly soon.
While I actually would prefer to mix the tracks later on a PC, I'm troubled by the lack of control over the signal coming in.
If I get one, it sounds like I'll need some attenuators between the soundboard and the unit, which I can live with.
But...
While you can't monitor what you're recording, are there at least some meters to see whether any of the individual channels are clipping? That's been an issue for me in doing patchwork multi-tracks in the past...

If there's no monitors I'm exploring other options.

The HD-24 does have really good metering.  Has peak hold, etc. as well. This thing takes professional levels. So unless the FOH engineer is clipping his levels, the direct signal from the board shouldnt be too hot.  If the gain for the direct outputs isnt ganged to the gain for the channel, then it will have its own volume control, so you can just ask the FOH to turn it down a bit and its no problem as it wont effect any of his settings, only the volume going out to you.

[cleantone]

You would only need 24 TRS connectors, 24 on/off button switches, and one headphone amp. I would just have to put some thought into how to best connect it all, one rack unit in size would be awesome. It must be a cost effectiveness situation but I REALLY think these type of units should have a solo button. It just makes sense. It would be SO helpful in the field. With a console your all set but with rack preamps you would need to route to a mixer for monitoring. Maybe a small 24 channel rackmount mixer that was used only to monitor would be best. I'll have to give that some thought.

[TNJazz]

You would only need 24 TRS connectors, 24 on/off button switches, and one headphone amp. I would just have to put some thought into how to best connect it all, one rack unit in size would be awesome. It must be a cost effectiveness situation but I REALLY think these type of units should have a solo button. It just makes sense. It would be SO helpful in the field. With a console your all set but with rack preamps you would need to route to a mixer for monitoring. Maybe a small 24 channel rackmount mixer that was used only to monitor would be best. I'll have to give that some thought.

This is exactly what I was thinking. 

Here's a good starter article on the HD24.  Keep in mind this article is 4 years old now.  http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Feb02/articles/alesishd24.asp

[bluegrass_brad]

You would only need 24 TRS connectors, 24 on/off button switches, and one headphone amp. I would just have to put some thought into how to best connect it all, one rack unit in size would be awesome. It must be a cost effectiveness situation but I REALLY think these type of units should have a solo button. It just makes sense. It would be SO helpful in the field. With a console your all set but with rack preamps you would need to route to a mixer for monitoring. Maybe a small 24 channel rackmount mixer that was used only to monitor would be best. I'll have to give that some thought.

The Crest X-rack series are nice for this type of thing.  They can be mounted in a rack and have an XLR splitter built in.  Perfect for multitraking in the field. This is a picture of the 20 channel version.  they have a 24 but no picture.  I have used one of these many times and they are great.  Also have groups so you could send a rough 2-channel mixdown as well as just the SBD feed etc to a two track recorder for backup. They arent too bad either at around $1500 new.  Used can be found for much much less.  This is pro quality stuff too.
http://www.crestaudio.com/products/browse.cfm/action/detail/item/116281/number/CFA-XXR20-U2/cat/327/X-Rack+Series.cfm

I think that the no solo thing is a size issue as well.  On off buttons and routing all that to a headphone amp and jack.  The fce is pretty jam packed on the HD-24 already.  If you added another row of buttons and whatnot I would think it would increase the size to the next rackspace size. Just IMO.

[bluegrass_brad]

You would only need 24 TRS connectors, 24 on/off button switches, and one headphone amp. I would just have to put some thought into how to best connect it all, one rack unit in size would be awesome. It must be a cost effectiveness situation but I REALLY think these type of units should have a solo button. It just makes sense. It would be SO helpful in the field. With a console your all set but with rack preamps you would need to route to a mixer for monitoring. Maybe a small 24 channel rackmount mixer that was used only to monitor would be best. I'll have to give that some thought.

I used a patch bay instead and a headphone amp.  Worked fine for the few times I needed it.  As I said I mostly monitored through the board.

[cleantone]

Behringer 16 input one rack space mixer. You can find these for about $100. I don't normally think about buying Behringer but for this purpose it might be a good bet. Even making something will add up in terms of cost. With this you could even dial in a submix and route it to the recorder or CD burner for a quick refference copy.

[TNJazz]

Behringer 16 input one rack space mixer. You can find these for about $100. I don't normally think about buying Behringer but for this purpose it might be a good bet. Even making something will add up in terms of cost. With this you could even dial in a submix and route it to the recorder or CD burner for a quick refference copy.

This is the EURORACK PRO RX1602, for anyone who might be interested.  A risky investment to be sure.  Here are a couple other options, for a little (to a LOT!) more money:

Ashly LX-308B
Rane SM82
Speck XSum (this is what I want!)

Another contender might be the Mackie LM3202 but they're no longer made, so the only place you might find them is used or on Ebay.

[cleantone]

A risky investment to be sure.

I assume you mean because it is behringer. Normally I would agree there. I think it is a good contender for this though. Get yourself two of these and two 16 channel TS, or TRS snakes and you have not only a monitoring situation but also something to submix on the fly with a hard disk recorder. All for about $250. Pretty good solution IMO. The fact that it is Behringer does mean of course that it could break pretty easy and possibly be noisey on any given channel. Since it is not part of the recording chain I would not worry too much about quality. Espessially keeping in mind that other solutions are gonna be a much bigger investment. Making something custum might still be a good solution though. I'll be mulling it over for sure.

[bluegrass_brad]

The fact that it is Behringer does mean of course that it will break pretty easy and definitely be noisey on any given channel.

I fixed that for you
But curious, if you are using this for monitoring (and are worried about buzzes, ground hums etc and that is what you are monitoring for) why introduce something into the chain that has a very good chance of being noisy in and of itself.  You'll never know if the noise is in the channel or in the monitoring system.  I had a behringer compressor that had a terrible hum all the time.  Even plugged into a power conditioner.

[TNJazz]

A risky investment to be sure.

I assume you mean because it is behringer. Normally I would agree there. I think it is a good contender for this though. Get yourself two of these and two 16 channel TS, or TRS snakes and you have not only a monitoring situation but also something to submix on the fly with a hard disk recorder. All for about $250. Pretty good solution IMO. The fact that it is Behringer does mean of course that it could break pretty easy and possibly be noisey on any given channel. Since it is not part of the recording chain I would not worry too much about quality. Espessially keeping in mind that other solutions are gonna be a much bigger investment. Making something custum might still be a good solution though. I'll be mulling it over for sure.

Yes, the Behringer name pretty much assures you it will break and your only option then is to pitch it into the dumpster, as I'm sure you already know.  There are certainly a few very worthy B products (the ADA8000 comes to mind, for sure) but for the most part B should ALWAYS be thought of as disposable gear.  Buy the Ashly or the Rane, and you'll only buy one time.  It will work for years.  The Behringer might too, but it also might not.  The "might not" odds are pretty much even money.  The "might" odds are the long shot...

Anyway, I'm pursuing a custom solution at the moment.  I've got someone who will help me build this thing - we'll see what the total cost ends up being.  If it comes in at a decent price maybe we'll build a couple of them if anyone's interested.

Dirk

EDIT:  Thanks Brad!  Beat me to the punch!   

[cleantone]

If you are using this for monitoring (and are worried about buzzes, ground hums etc and that is what you are monitoring for) why introduce something into the chain that has a very good chance of being noisy in and of itself.  You'll never know if the noise is in the channel or in the monitoring system.

I guess I was just putting a little faith (for no reason) into the unit. Assuming (for no reason) that it could serve this little purpose without being a complete peice of shit. I'm sure the custom route will be a better option. If/when I will certainly pursure that route.

[wbrisette]

Of course WAY out of the price range, but certainly bullet-proof and exactly what you are looking for is available in the Cantar and Deva units.

Wayne

[cyfan]

Despite all the help, I fell back to what I originally considered.
Just bought a lightly used Fostex VF160EX mixer/recorder to serve my multi-tracking needs.
Only 8 simultaneous channels of recording ... but the HD24's 24 channels were overkill for my use.

tim