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Gear / Technical Help => Post-Processing, Computer / Streaming / Internet Devices & Related Activity => Topic started by: stevetoney on March 25, 2013, 03:06:11 PM
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I had a failed recording attempt back awhile ago where only one of the channels turned out good. I was about to throw the recording out when I decided to try something I'd read here a long time ago when someone said something about simulating stereo by playing around with the mono track.
I was very pleasantly surprised with the result and honestly, not sure anyone would be able to tell afterwards if I didn't tell them that the end result was sourced from a single mono track.
Here's what I did...
- First I copied the good track over to the other track.
- Then I added a slight amount of delay between the two tracks...only a little bit. (Trying to simulate the amount of time between two mic capsules at 20cm spacing.)
- I EQed one track a little different from the other. Added some bass to one side, added some high end to the other. (kinda gives the feeling of instruments being spread apart on stage)
- Finally added just a tiny bit of reverb to both sides to give the recording a little bit more of a space feeling.
That's it.
Curious if others have done this and whether or not you considered it a success.
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yeah, I've done it a number of times. I've used the same techniques you describe. I'd say it is a good thing to do when one channel is absent or really screwed up. I've tried it when I have some good stereo and some mono and it doesn't sound as good as the true 2 mic stereo, but that may be just my lack of skillls
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I had a failed recording attempt back awhile ago where only one of the channels turned out good. I was about to throw the recording out when I decided to try something I'd read here a long time ago when someone said something about simulating stereo by playing around with the mono track.
I was very pleasantly surprised with the result and honestly, not sure anyone would be able to tell afterwards if I didn't tell them that the end result was sourced from a single mono track.
Here's what I did...
- First I copied the good track over to the other track.
- Then I added a slight amount of delay between the two tracks...only a little bit. (Trying to simulate the amount of time between two mic capsules at 20cm spacing.)
- I EQed one track a little different from the other. Added some bass to one side, added some high end to the other. (kinda gives the feeling of instruments being spread apart on stage)
- Finally added just a tiny bit of reverb to both sides to give the recording a little bit more of a space feeling.
That's it.
Curious if others have done this and whether or not you considered it a success.
I might have to get you to do "the treatment" to one of my Transfers... Sounds like one channel got unplugged at the show for one set, only to be fixed later on... No sound on the left for a whole set...
Terry
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yeah, I've done it a number of times. I've used the same techniques you describe. I'd say it is a good thing to do when one channel is absent or really screwed up. I've tried it when I have some good stereo and some mono and it doesn't sound as good as the true 2 mic stereo, but that may be just my lack of skillls
Oh yeah, I didn't mean to imply that I thought it turned out as good as a true stereo recording would sound. It's just that given there was no other source, I was just saying I'd venture a guess that, just by listening, someone wouldn't instantly call it out as a bastardized mono.
But yeah for sure this was just a technique I'd consider as a desirable alternative to giving up on a recording altogether. I was pretty pleased with the result, given that I'd literally given up and was ready to delete the original file before considering this technique.
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This is a bit different situation, the SBD feed was single channel only. I copied it to the other channel, added a little delay (no EQ, though), and I think it came out pretty nice.
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102568
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Here is another one I did recently for a friend. One of his cables was bad, so he ended up with one useable channel
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=562820
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Yeah, I've tried and I basically followed what Steve did. If you have any plugins that operate in multi-band functions, that's a plus.
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you will find that a LOT of smaller venues run their SBD's without anything being panned, so in essence you are getting two mono tracks anyway. Almost all shows where I am working FOH are a mono mix, or maybe I pan some of the drums. These are always at venue with 1000 or less people. Mono x 2 is no different than a stereo feed with nothing panned on the board.
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you will find that a LOT of smaller venues run their SBD's without anything being panned, so in essence you are getting two mono tracks anyway. Almost all shows where I am working FOH are a mono mix, or maybe I pan some of the drums. These are always at venue with 1000 or less people. Mono x 2 is no different than a stereo feed with nothing panned on the board.
Yeah, but recording a mono PA with two mics does give the crowd a stereo image when they applaud.
As others have noted I've use the same techniques when one channel goes bad to give the recording some air.
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you will find that a LOT of smaller venues run their SBD's without anything being panned, so in essence you are getting two mono tracks anyway. Almost all shows where I am working FOH are a mono mix, or maybe I pan some of the drums. These are always at venue with 1000 or less people. Mono x 2 is no different than a stereo feed with nothing panned on the board.
Yeah, but recording a mono PA with two mics does give the crowd a stereo image when they applaud.
I believe Kirk was referring to a direct SBD out rather than an mic'd AUD recording. Even if the FOH PA is mono, the sound filling the room and reaching our AUD microphones will be highly multi-dimensional. A mono or 2-channel stereo recording may be all one desires (or may be the best one can do), but understand that there is no 2-channel stereo or multi-channel surround rig in existence which can fully capture that full complexity. That doesn't mean a stereo PA mix would not be preferable in most cases for our recording purposes, only that far more than just the audience reaction will be 'stereo' in a good AUD recording of a mono PA.
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I'll go one further.. Imagine a thought experiment featuring a typical two-stack mono PA an a typical 2-channel AUD recording made of a performance played through it, only with no audience and everything setup in an anechoic chamber which absorbs all room sound except that which emanates directly from the PA. Unless set-up perfectly centered, your choice of various non-coincident microphone configuration for your stereo pair is somewhat akin to adjusting a pseudo-stereo processor.
The real situation in a real room is far more complex and ‘stereoized’ than that.
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I'm not sure why anyone would think they should toss/give up on mono sources. I'm perfectly fine with a well recorded mono source and have not generally tried to treat them. I usually find I prefer removing the phase offset from older mono sources (though granted that is an unintentional offset rather than a planned treatment). A light touch may give them more ambiance but on the other hand you can just move your seat off center when you play it out of speakers. :P
As noted small venue board feeds are usually mono and a mono signal bouncing around a room to an aud mic typically no longer sounds (or really is) mono.
Back in the day a certain collector publication rated their copy of a specific audience master as the best sounding pull of a lengthy tour. It was a single point mono recording (but flying that thing right in the sweet spot of a nice hall/nice mix gave very pleasing results).
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on this one:
http://www.shnflac.net/details.php?id=24fb9066062cf8d751e9ef2402e119973478b162 (http://www.shnflac.net/details.php?id=24fb9066062cf8d751e9ef2402e119973478b162)
Brief Story:
Since no other source of this show has surfaced...
I am (and have been for a number of years... 18 or so...) trying to master the best sounding recording from my existing master FOB AUD. I have plans to also do some 24 bit mastering of the rest of the run, which has been previously upped by Candleman at 16 bit. John DeTally and I recorded often as a team both running my Mics the "infamous" TOA-K1's into our Sony WM-D6C's my deck usually ran first then John's. I believe that John, had a final on Monday nite, So I went in "solo", with other friends who helped me get the gear in and record. The That's What Love Will Make You Do, is simply Smokin! Deal, Second That Emotion, Dear Prudence, Russian Lullaby, Rubin & Cherise! and the finale- Tangled Up in Blue! Actually the whole show was amazing!
Notes:
Flaws =
a Mono Recording as the Right Channel was plagued by heavy mic connection ("active" cable) crackles, though the Left channel was clear and fine.
A Second or two missing at the beginning of Cats (Classic Jerry at the Wiltern- they began playing while the curtain was still down!)
~ 50 seconds a slight mic connection crackle
~ 10.01 - 10.11 slight mic connection crackles
28.32 a balloon pop - hand minimized...
The tape flips were not cross-faded, as peak does not offer that, but I faded out and in and hand spliced the flip so it's not that bad.
Fix:
I opted to use the Carbon MDA VST effects-plugin- MS->LR :
in order to give a little bit of life I used the MS->LR to "create" a bit of a simulated stereo sound.
first normalize to: -1.0db
Bounce: Carbon MDA VST effects-plugin- MS->LR -4db
Remove DC offset- Normalize to -0.5db
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FOB Master Audience:
Master info:
Seats Orch Row H Seat 118 (Aisle 4) = 12 Row
MAC: Toa k1's "active" (about 6'high) > Sony WM-TCD-6C > Maxell MX-90's x 2 (Dolby C on)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PlayBack:
MAC: Tascam 302 Dolby C on > Monster Y (RCA splitter) > Monster interlink 101 RCA > 1/4"> Fostex (stock) FR2-LE 24bit/48khz (dual mono) BWF > Transcend 133x CF card
(one channel had horrid mic connection issues- due to the "active" capsules connections)
Transfer info:
> usb > iBook G4 1.2 GHZ / 1.25 GB RAM OSX 10.4.1 1> BWF opened in Peak5.2 [tracked and faded] [DC bias removal] [Carbon MDA VST effects-Image-plugin- MS->LR] regions exported .wav24 48khz
wav24 opened in Sample Manager 3.1.3 [iZotope resampler - MBIT+]
(iZotope 64-bit SRC utilizes a hyrbrid algorithm | MBIT+ dithering algorithm features psychoacoustic noise shaping) > 16 bit 44.1khz > xACT v1.62 to FLAC (level 8 ) fix SBE's generate ffp and len (shntool) output
Successfully used a MS plug in to help create a slightly more "stereo" version of the one channel source.
--Ian
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Ive had to do this before too, tonedeaf ;) I copied the good channel to the opposite channel and then in WaveLab, I used the "Stereo Expander" plugin and was amazed at the results :) 80 ;D I wouldnt want to do it often, but when shit happens and youre in a pinch, you gotta do what ya gotta do ;)
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I recently recorded Los Lobos at SLO Brewing Company in San Luis Obispo, CA. I ran my Neumann KM-140s (ORTF), hanging from the front center ceiling post about 10 feet off the floor and about 8 - 9 feet from the stage. I borrowed some 50 ft XLR cables from a friend who has a local PRO sound company, so I could have my Beyer MV-100 preamp / SBM-1 a/d converter and Sony TCD-D8 near the board (for ease of use and protection from the Mongol Hordes.) ;)
Once the show started, I noticed that the right channel was not working. There was nothing I could do about it at the time, because the cables were taped down with a mile of duct tape and there were those...Mongol Hordes... out on the floor!
My left channel sounded really good, so I copied the good channel to the other side and sent the show to Dennis in Canada. He was able to add 25 milliseconds of delay to the 'mono' right channel. I was amazed at how good it sounded. Talk about making the best of a bad situation!
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=562820
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you will find that a LOT of smaller venues run their SBD's without anything being panned, so in essence you are getting two mono tracks anyway. Almost all shows where I am working FOH are a mono mix, or maybe I pan some of the drums. These are always at venue with 1000 or less people. Mono x 2 is no different than a stereo feed with nothing panned on the board.
Yeah, but recording a mono PA with two mics does give the crowd a stereo image when they applaud.
I believe Kirk was referring to a direct SBD out rather than an mic'd AUD recording. Even if the FOH PA is mono, the sound filling the room and reaching our AUD microphones will be highly multi-dimensional. A mono or 2-channel stereo recording may be all one desires (or may be the best one can do), but understand that there is no 2-channel stereo or multi-channel surround rig in existence which can fully capture that full complexity. That doesn't mean a stereo PA mix would not be preferable in most cases for our recording purposes, only that far more than just the audience reaction will be 'stereo' in a good AUD recording of a mono PA.
\right I was referring ONLY to the SBD part. There are many times I will just take a mono sbd feed if the FOH person is not panning anything. But then I am almost always running mics at stage lip either corners, center or both. I will mix them and yes those mics add the stereo imaging that I want. But I would never bother trying to "fake" a straight mono sbd feed into stereo. I'm sorry adding delay to one channel does not make it stereo, it makes on channel have delay compared to the other and I find thet two sources not aligned create a less than clear sound. Like I said, unless you are in larger rooms you will find that most of the sbd's do not have anything panned in their mix. So in essence they are sending out two mono signal one on the left side and one on the right side. If you don't think so take your straight sbd stereo feed and flip the phase on one channel does you signal almost disappear? If so its because both channels are the same. Mono