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Gear / Technical Help => Playback Forum => Topic started by: Nick Culbreth on January 28, 2005, 01:18:04 PM

Title: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on January 28, 2005, 01:18:04 PM
My new tubes came today.   ;D  ;D  ;D

I heart tubes. :)
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: dmonterisi on January 28, 2005, 01:21:06 PM
purty!  +T
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Lil Kim Jong-Il on January 28, 2005, 01:24:07 PM
where are they going?

I've always wondered where would I get the best result for a small test, the preamp tubes or the small signal tubes in the amp?
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on January 28, 2005, 01:50:38 PM
From left to right:  matched pair of Amperex Bugleboy 6dj8, matched pair of Amperex Orange Globes 6dj8, matched pair of Mullard 6dj8, matched pair of Sylvania Gold Lable 5751, single Telefunken ribbed plate 12ax7, matched pair Telefunken smooth plate 12ax7, single Amperex Holland 12ax7.  The 6dj8s are for my Musical Fidelity X-Can V2, the matched pairs of 12ax7s are for the ouput of my YS Symphonies and the single 12ax7s are for the input stage of the Symphonies.

I just popped in the Sylvanias, I've never heard my system sound so good.  IMHO they destroy the Telefunkens and that's saying something.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Brian Skalinder on January 28, 2005, 03:30:20 PM
Lemme see if I have this right:

X-Can V2 | matched pair of Amperex Bugleboy 6dj8
X-Can V2 | matched pair of Amperex Orange Globes 6dj8, X-Can V2 | matched pair of Mullard 6dj8
??       | matched pair of Sylvania Gold Lable 5751
YS-Symph | single Telefunken ribbed plate 12ax7
YS-Symph | matched pair Telefunken smooth plate 12ax7 YS-Symph | single Amperex Holland 12ax7

I just popped in the Sylvanias, I've never heard my system sound so good.  IMHO they destroy the Telefunkens and that's saying something.

So I take it the 5751s are substitues for 12AX7?

Getting time to try out some new tubes in my Symphonies - where'd you get 'em?
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on January 28, 2005, 03:36:58 PM
woo-hoo.... +T Nick... keep us informed!
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: twoodruff on January 28, 2005, 03:37:35 PM
Lemme see if I have this right:

X-Can V2 | matched pair of Amperex Bugleboy 6dj8
X-Can V2 | matched pair of Amperex Orange Globes 6dj8, X-Can V2 | matched pair of Mullard 6dj8
??       | matched pair of Sylvania Gold Lable 5751
YS-Symph | single Telefunken ribbed plate 12ax7
YS-Symph | matched pair Telefunken smooth plate 12ax7 YS-Symph | single Amperex Holland 12ax7

I just popped in the Sylvanias, I've never heard my system sound so good.  IMHO they destroy the Telefunkens and that's saying something.

So I take it the 5751s are substitues for 12AX7?

Getting time to try out some new tubes in my Symphonies - where'd you get 'em?

yes the 5751s are 12ax7 sized, and he sent me to this site recently

http://store.yahoo.com/triodeel/12axec7057.html
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on January 28, 2005, 04:42:55 PM
Actually the tube breakdown goes like this:

X-Can V2:  Amperex Bugleboys, Amperex Orange Globes, Mullards (all 6DJ8)

Symphonies Input:  Amperex Holland 12AX7 and Telefunken Ribbed Plate 12AX7 (singles)

Symphonies Output:  Telefunken Smooth Plate 12AX7 and Sylvania Gold Label 5751 (matched pairs)


The 5751 tubes have lower gain than the 12AX7 tubes but are otherwise completely compatible.  There is a whole lot of information about the 5751 tube family on the audio asylum tube forum, most seem to either love them or hate them depending on their setup.  I haven't had a lot of time to do a lot of critical listening but so far I absolutely love them.  The midrange is amazingly smooth and rich, the bass is tighter and a bit more defined, the highs are nice but don't have the same sparkle as the Telefunkens.  As a whole they seem a bit more focused and defined than the 12AX7s, the difference isn't subtle at all.  I should mention that I'm talking about the 5751 as the output tubes and the Amperex 12AX7 as the input tube, I'd like to eventually try a single Sylvania 5751 as the input as well but my funds are a little low after my spending spree.

Brian are you still using the stock Chinese tubes?  If so you should definately look to replace them, even current production tubes are a significant improvement over what the Symphonies came with.  I recently tried out the current production JJ Electronic tubes which are copies of the older Telefunkens and they weren't quite on the same level at the NOS tubes I've been using but they are lightyears better than the Chinese tubes and only will set you back $25 - $30.

Like Trey said I've had very positive experiences with Triode Electonics, they're located in Chicago so you won't even have to pay shipping.  :)
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: twoodruff on January 28, 2005, 05:10:46 PM
i have also looked at tubes at the below sites

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/view_category.asp?cat=40

http://tubeworld.com/12AX7.html
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on January 28, 2005, 05:25:42 PM
I've never dealt with Upscale but I've heard nothing but great things about them, the only "problem" with them is they don't have a huge selection of 6DJ8/6922 tube available for purchase unless you are buying gear from them.  Tube world is also supposedly very good but their prices are very very expensive, they're by far the most expensive retailer I've come across.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: BobW on February 21, 2005, 11:09:33 PM
A Bottlehead Foreplay just landed on my bench today.
I put it behind the DVD-A and before the Dynaco Solid State amp.
Other than a very slight hum, it really made a huge difference.
Soundstage and warmth, amazing from just two 12AU7s.

Now to cast out the evil hum demon !
Shielding and filtering and rerouting the ground loop wiring.....ughhh !
The guy that built this was a business major I think.


Next stop, a 10 watt SE EL34 mono pair.     8)


+T on the NOS line.  very pretty.
My 12 AU7s are actually burroughs 5963s   I wonder who made them ?
I doubt that they are very musical. My guess is that they were made for switching.
Hey, so this is what a UNIVAC sounds like !
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: ducati on February 22, 2005, 10:31:55 AM
Cool--I've been thinking about trying some 5751's in my preamp...  Trying to find someone with my pre that has tried it, so far no luck.  Might just have to give it a whirl someday :)

That photo of the tubes is pure sex, man.  Gotta love being on the bottle  ;D
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: cheshirecat on February 22, 2005, 11:47:43 AM
Quote
Now to cast out the evil hum demon !
Shielding and filtering and rerouting the ground loop wiring.....ughhh !
The guy that built this was a business major I think.

Hey  now, watch it, I was a buisiness major (Finance and MIS) and have built many hum-free amps and pre-amps (a bunch of ST-70s and PAS2s among others)...  Try a putting a 2-prong cheater on the pre-amp to see if that isolates your hum.  Are you sure it is your Pre causing the hum?  Does the Pre hum (connected to the amp) with no input connected, how about with the volume turned all the way down?  Does your amp hum with no imput connected?
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: bkirby on February 22, 2005, 12:14:29 PM
Actually the tube breakdown goes like this:

X-Can V2:  Amperex Bugleboys, Amperex Orange Globes, Mullards (all 6DJ8)

Symphonies Input:  Amperex Holland 12AX7 and Telefunken Ribbed Plate 12AX7 (singles)

Symphonies Output:  Telefunken Smooth Plate 12AX7 and Sylvania Gold Label 5751 (matched pairs)


The 5751 tubes have lower gain than the 12AX7 tubes but are otherwise completely compatible.  There is a whole lot of information about the 5751 tube family on the audio asylum tube forum, most seem to either love them or hate them depending on their setup.  I haven't had a lot of time to do a lot of critical listening but so far I absolutely love them.  The midrange is amazingly smooth and rich, the bass is tighter and a bit more defined, the highs are nice but don't have the same sparkle as the Telefunkens.  As a whole they seem a bit more focused and defined than the 12AX7s, the difference isn't subtle at all.  I should mention that I'm talking about the 5751 as the output tubes and the Amperex 12AX7 as the input tube, I'd like to eventually try a single Sylvania 5751 as the input as well but my funds are a little low after my spending spree.

Brian are you still using the stock Chinese tubes?  If so you should definately look to replace them, even current production tubes are a significant improvement over what the Symphonies came with.  I recently tried out the current production JJ Electronic tubes which are copies of the older Telefunkens and they weren't quite on the same level at the NOS tubes I've been using but they are lightyears better than the Chinese tubes and only will set you back $25 - $30.

Like Trey said I've had very positive experiences with Triode Electonics, they're located in Chicago so you won't even have to pay shipping.  :)

I just got some rather cheap Electro Hamonix 12AX7 EH (3 total for input and output) to try out as I read some more reviews of different tubes in the YS Symphonies. They are still burning, but the improvement was immediate! Completely destroyed the chinese stock tubes! I may also upgrade the caps as I have read they make quite an improvement as well.

As for the Bottlehead Foreplay, most of them have a hum before some of the upgrades are added in. I have already done tube-rolling with the Foreplay and absolutely loved the RCA clear-tops (12AU7) in there after all of the upgrades had been done. I heard the Telefunken's sound great in the Foreplay, but I never got around to buying them!
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: ducati on February 22, 2005, 12:44:59 PM
The 12AX7EH is a pretty good tube, I have it stock in my pre.  I also ran them vs. some JJ 12AX7's awhile ago in a cheapie Jolida 202 and I liked the 12AX7EH's there, too. 

A good, cheap, new production tube.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 22, 2005, 07:56:55 PM
I just got some rather cheap Electro Hamonix 12AX7 EH (3 total for input and output) to try out as I read some more reviews of different tubes in the YS Symphonies. They are still burning, but the improvement was immediate! Completely destroyed the chinese stock tubes! I may also upgrade the caps as I have read they make quite an improvement as well.

As for the Bottlehead Foreplay, most of them have a hum before some of the upgrades are added in. I have already done tube-rolling with the Foreplay and absolutely loved the RCA clear-tops (12AU7) in there after all of the upgrades had been done. I heard the Telefunken's sound great in the Foreplay, but I never got around to buying them!

I got a pair of Electro Harmonix 12AX7EH tubes with my Prima Luna and thought they were pretty nice, though the bass was a touch loose for my liking.  I had a pretty similar experience with the JJ 12AX7s vs. the Chinese tubes, while they're not quite up to par with the NOS tubes I've tried they're my favorite current production tubes.  If you're considering upgrading the Symphonies get in touch with Alex Peychev at APL Hifi, he offers an upgrade which I'm told substantially improves the sound quality.  I thought about getting mine done but decided to upgrade to a tube integrated amp instead.

I've heard great things about the RCAs, do you remember where you found them and how much you paid?  The guy I buy my tubes has them but they were a little more than I wanted to spend, so I ended up spending a couple extra bucks and got some Amperex 12AU7s instead.  I'd love to get a pair to see how they stack up to what I've got now.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: ducati on February 23, 2005, 08:40:42 AM
Definitely full and warmer in the bass than some 12AX7s, but I wouldn't characterize the tube as "loose" in the bass.  Perhaps your PrimaLuna is loose in the bass to begin with, and that's too much of a good thing.  With my ARC VS55, which is punchy and also full in the bass, the 12AX7EH warms it up and gives it a tad more weight--nothing over the top (or under the bottom as it may be)

This is why there's no definitive "best" tube for everyone, and why tube amps rule...  You can tailor your sound just to your liking or mood, if you're industrious  :)
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 23, 2005, 12:15:51 PM
Definitely full and warmer in the bass than some 12AX7s, but I wouldn't characterize the tube as "loose" in the bass.  Perhaps your PrimaLuna is loose in the bass to begin with, and that's too much of a good thing.  With my ARC VS55, which is punchy and also full in the bass, the 12AX7EH warms it up and gives it a tad more weight--nothing over the top (or under the bottom as it may be)

This is why there's no definitive "best" tube for everyone, and why tube amps rule...  You can tailor your sound just to your liking or mood, if you're industrious  :)

I couldn't agree more, swapping out the tubes can make your it sound like a completely different piece of gear for better or worse.  I haven't had a chance to toy around with changing the power tubes but so far I'm really digging the Amperex 12AU7 and Telefunken Ribbed Plate 12AX7 combination for general listening and ther Amperex 12AU7 and Sylvania Gold Brand 5751 for vocals.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: ducati on February 23, 2005, 01:55:59 PM
You've inspired me.  I'm going to order some tubes  ;D
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 23, 2005, 01:56:52 PM
You've inspired me.  I'm going to order some tubes  ;D

So what are you getting?   :)
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: ducati on February 23, 2005, 02:13:40 PM
Good question.  I have been investigating power tubes for awhile, and am considering:
Tung-Sol 6550 Black Plate (duh, the "real deal" bend-me-over) NOS
GE 6550A if I can find them NOS
TS6550 Russian Tung-Sol "reissue"
Svetlana 6550C or whatever they're called now, which I have not heard yet in my amp (new prod.)

For my preamp, I think I'll probably buy a smattering of tubes and see what I like.  12AX7's, I need 3 of each variety.  I haven't really started checking into these yet.  Right now I run 12AX7EH which have warm and punchy bass, an excellent midrange, and extended if maybe a touch of sizzle in the highs especially on some digital material.  I would like a more balanced approach, with better highs, maybe even at the loss of a little extension.  I have been intrigued by the 5751's and will most definitely buy a set of these; probably some Sovtek 5751's to see what I think of this lower-gain tube.

I'm thinking the best bang for the buck would be some Svet or TS6550's in the power amp with some NOS in the pre.  Toss in a smattering of new-production 12AX7's, also, for fun (and since they're relatively cheap).  Any suggestions?

Also--I noticed you use a MF X-CanV2.  I am considering the V3 version...  How do you like yours?  I just bought some Grado SR80's; I don't use headphones much anymore, but plan on using them when my wife watches dumb TV shows and the hifi is tied up :)
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 23, 2005, 03:05:29 PM
Good question.  I have been investigating power tubes for awhile, and am considering:
Tung-Sol 6550 Black Plate (duh, the "real deal" bend-me-over) NOS
GE 6550A if I can find them NOS
TS6550 Russian Tung-Sol "reissue"
Svetlana 6550C or whatever they're called now, which I have not heard yet in my amp (new prod.)

For my preamp, I think I'll probably buy a smattering of tubes and see what I like.  12AX7's, I need 3 of each variety.  I haven't really started checking into these yet.  Right now I run 12AX7EH which have warm and punchy bass, an excellent midrange, and extended if maybe a touch of sizzle in the highs especially on some digital material.  I would like a more balanced approach, with better highs, maybe even at the loss of a little extension.  I have been intrigued by the 5751's and will most definitely buy a set of these; probably some Sovtek 5751's to see what I think of this lower-gain tube.

I'm thinking the best bang for the buck would be some Svet or TS6550's in the power amp with some NOS in the pre.  Toss in a smattering of new-production 12AX7's, also, for fun (and since they're relatively cheap).  Any suggestions?

Also--I noticed you use a MF X-CanV2.  I am considering the V3 version...  How do you like yours?  I just bought some Grado SR80's; I don't use headphones much anymore, but plan on using them when my wife watches dumb TV shows and the hifi is tied up :)

I think I've tried every current production 12AX7 except the Ei versions and to my ears the best of the lot is the JJs, I found them to be the most balanced sounding in my system.  The bass is pretty tight, the midrange is excellent and the highs are pretty natural but  don't sparkle like the Telefunkens.  All in all they're a great bargain for $8 per tube.

I was intrigued by the 5751 option as well and picked up a pair of Sylvania Gold Brands and coupled them with a Amperex 12AX7 tube in my YS-Symphonies preamp and I loved the combination, they were much better than the Tele smoothplates I had been using.  I tried them in the PrimaLuna with Amperex 12AU7s and I don't think the combo has the same synergy, they sound great on vocals and accoustic guitars but it is a little lacking in the high end in general.  This is a perfect example in my mind of how there is no such thing as the "best" tube, I'm going to try to find a more transparent 12AU7 (probably a German type) and see if it mates better with the Sylvania.

As for the Musical Fidelity V2, I really like it especially now that I've found the "right" tubes.  My first hifi setup consisted of the V2 and a pair of Sennheiser HD-580s and even after putting together a speaker setup I still find myself using the headphones often, especially late at night when I can't really crank the volume.  My only reservation about giving a full recommendation is that the V2 and the V3 use two 6DJ8 / 6922 tubes which can be problematic.  The price of quality NOS 6DJ8 family tubes is getting out of control and unlike other tube families the current production tubes are pretty crappy across the board.  I found the stock Jan Phillips 6922 tubes to be very fatiguing, the JJs were incoherent and the EHs sounded like a solid state setup.  I wasn't fully satisfied until I rolled in a pair of Amperex Bugleboy 6DJ8s, which satisfied my ears but cost a pretty penny.  The V3 is definately worth a listen, but you should definately keep the cost of the tubes in mind.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 23, 2005, 03:35:35 PM
total tube n00b here,.... pardon my questions

You say $8 for a tube.
Is that standard?, low? I can only imagine that the sky is the limit in this game??
What would be considered expensive?

For the minature tubes the average going price for current production tubes is in the neighborhood of $10 per tube, but NOS varieties can cost several hundred per tube depending on rarity and desireability.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: ducati on February 23, 2005, 03:45:47 PM
Ha, funny you mention the JJ's...  I just realized I have 2 JJ 12AX7's at home from an old Jolida...  I'll have to buy another and see what I think.  

I think I'll try those, some Ei's (they're cheap, too), and maybe some 5751s.  And some new power tubes, I really can't decide on those.  That shouldn't set me back too terribly much if I stick with new-prod. power tubes.  

BTW--where do you buy your tubes?  I have bought all my tubes in the past from Ned at Triode...  But he's not carrying the TS6550's I'm looking for now, so I'm looking at Boi Audio Works (got them from the asylum).

As to the MF X-can; thanks for the heads up.  I didn't think about the cost of NOS tubes...  That sure would add to the cost of a $395 amp.  Do you know anything about the ASL headphone amps?  I am auditioning a few this weekend along with the MF (at different shops, unfortunately).

Moke: NOS means "New Old Stock" and yes, they're old.  Many from the 40's 50's and 60's are popular!  I used to scour antique shops around here and find old RCA cleartops and Telefunkens for $.25 a pop but boy are those days over...
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 23, 2005, 03:47:00 PM
NOS = New Old Stock

Just got my lappy back from the repair shop so I have to catch up on old PM's... Nick, I'll tell you about the el34's :)

oh and the 12au7's that came stock with my amp are JJ ecc82's...
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 23, 2005, 03:54:19 PM
Moke - I'm looking to try some new small driver tubes (12au7 variety) in my amp... the stock ones are decent enough and go for about $8 a pop, if I want to switch to some rca cleartops I'm looking at closer to $30/ea for current production tubes... I will need 4 for my amp.

Not cheap but for a couple of hundred bucks you can really customize the sound of your amp
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 23, 2005, 04:02:23 PM
it's a good way to deal with the tweak/upgrade bug without having to ship out amps every 6 months ;D

I can't get over how enjoyable my new system is.. I'm running out to the record store a few times a week now.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 23, 2005, 04:07:33 PM
upscale Audio is a little over an hour from here, and has Soliloquys, and tube amps,.... hmmm??
must save for 722, must clear mind of other toys,..... must save, must save

LOL!
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 23, 2005, 04:09:53 PM
Ha, funny you mention the JJ's...  I just realized I have 2 JJ 12AX7's at home from an old Jolida...  I'll have to buy another and see what I think. 

I think I'll try those, some Ei's (they're cheap, too), and maybe some 5751s.  And some new power tubes, I really can't decide on those.  That shouldn't set me back too terribly much if I stick with new-prod. power tubes. 

BTW--where do you buy your tubes?  I have bought all my tubes in the past from Ned at Triode...  But he's not carrying the TS6550's I'm looking for now, so I'm looking at Boi Audio Works (got them from the asylum).

As to the MF X-can; thanks for the heads up.  I didn't think about the cost of NOS tubes...  That sure would add to the cost of a $395 amp.  Do you know anything about the ASL headphone amps?  I am auditioning a few this weekend along with the MF (at different shops, unfortunately).

Moke: NOS means "New Old Stock" and yes, they're old.  Many from the 40's 50's and 60's are popular!  I used to scour antique shops around here and find old RCA cleartops and Telefunkens for $.25 a pop but boy are those days over...

Definately try out the Ei's, I'd love to hear how they stack up.

I buy all my new tubes from Ned at Triode, he's always taken very good care of me.

I've heard good things about the ASL Headphone amp, check out head-fi.org for more info than you'd ever need on it.  I really like the V2 but NOS tubes are essential and the 6DJ8 family tubes are becoming rare and if you can even find what you want you probably can't afford it.  So unless you're prepared to drop about $100 on a set of NOS tubes I'd really look elsewhere.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 23, 2005, 04:19:27 PM
Tom kinda scared me when I was looking towards purchasing the amp that I have now (plinius 8200 175w s.s, sssssss!). He got to speaking of this addiction to tweaking, and biasing, swapping and all this other stuff that goes with tubes, and it started sounding like $$bling$$.

upscale Audio is a little over an hour from here, and has Soliloquys, and tube amps,.... hmmm??
must save for 722, must clear mind of other toys,..... must save, must save

and before you knew it, Moke had highjacked another ts.com thread.

It can't hurt to look.   :)
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Lil Kim Jong-Il on February 23, 2005, 04:25:32 PM
It can't hurt to look.   :)

Yeah, right.  I've told myself that before.

Is there a guide for tubes with pictures?  I got extra sets of tubes from the previous owner of my amp and I can't read the labels on the small tubes, but maybe I can match up a pictures.

Are Ei tubes any good?  Thats what KT90s I have in there right now.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 23, 2005, 04:30:14 PM
Yeah, right.  I've told myself that before.

Is there a guide for tubes with pictures?  I got extra sets of tubes from the previous owner of my amp and I can't read the labels on the small tubes, but maybe I can match up a pictures.

Are Ei tubes any good?  Thats what KT90s I have in there right now.

Ei tubes are generally considerered some of the best current production tubes.  I've never come across a tube picture guide but I'd love to try to put one together.  Any of you other tube guys interested?
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 23, 2005, 04:30:48 PM
I'd be glad to snap some pics of the tubes I have on hand
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: bkirby on February 23, 2005, 05:12:53 PM
I would be glad to take pictures of all of my tubes, but I don't have a digi camera. A digi camera and a vacuum cleaner are next on my list of things... :-[
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: cheshirecat on February 23, 2005, 05:14:00 PM
I can also take some pictures, but this may get you going in the mean time:

http://www.valve-museum.org/
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 23, 2005, 05:50:58 PM
If you got the money honey we got your disease
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 23, 2005, 06:51:51 PM
This should be a fun little project and a nice reference to make sure you're getting legit tubes.  I've got the following covered:

12AU7
Amperex Orange Globe
RFT (In Transit)
Cifte (In Transit)
Sylvania Grey Plate

12AX7
Telefunken Smooth and Ribbed Plates
Amperex Orange Label
ElectroHarmonix 12AX7EH

5751
Sylvania Gold Brand 5751 (Grey Plate, Triple Mica)

6DJ8
Amperex Bugleboy
Amperex A Frame PQ

6922
JJ
ElectroHarmonix
Jan Phillips

Any other contributions would be welcome.  :)
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 23, 2005, 06:54:14 PM
you are a dirty slut Nick :P
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 23, 2005, 07:11:53 PM
you are a dirty slut Nick :P

Indeed.  It's not my fault.   :)

In actuality, I'm not completely satisfied with the Amperex 12AU7 and Sylvania 5751 combo so I'm trying to find a better mate for it.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: cheshirecat on February 23, 2005, 07:27:01 PM
Quote
This should be a fun little project and a nice reference to make sure you're getting legit tubes.  I've got the following covered:

There are also some key things to look for with different brands (many were mfg'd by a handfull of companys then OEM'd to others):
Telefunken small tubes nearly always have a <> diamond set into the glass between the pins
Mullard EL-34s have a hole in the guide tube and usually an xf# date code etched in the glass
Telefunken (the good ones) EL-34s have double halo getters
Telefunken's ink sluffs off very easily especially when hot
GE etched their info into many older tubes
RCA etched thier info with a {} bracket around it

I have all sorts of stuff around Off the top of my head:

EF-86 (6267)
Telefunken Shiny plate
Amperex BB mesh plate
Hitatchi ribbed plates (these sound like shit)
RCA large mesh plate

EL-34 (6CA7)
Amperex (by mullard) Orange Globe xf2 single halo
GE (by mullard) xf4 double halo
Mullard xf5 (forget the OEM on this one)
Westinghouse (china?)
Ruby EL-34STR
RCA Big Bottle
Sylvania Big Bottle
Raytheon Japan

GZ-34 (5AR4)
A few different Mullard types
Raytheon Japan
RCA big bottle
GE wide base

ECC83 (12ax7)
RCA Black plate
GE long grey plate (not sure where these pups are, may be in boston)
Mullard, multiple OEM labels
TFK both smooth and ribbed, multiple OEM labels
EI current production

ECC82 (12AU7)
TFK (I think no label on this one though, don't remember)
RCA clear top (branded borroughs?)
I have a few others, probably GE and RCAs

7199
RCA Black Plates(multiple OEM labels)
Sylvania Gray Plates(multiple OEM labels)


I have other stuff around if there are any particular types you're looking for, I can include those, I don't think I use anything from the 6922 family, so none listed, the above ones are the common Hi Fi amp/preamp tubes I use.

For reference, my playback:
Sony CDP??? > Eico HF-85 (TFK 12ax7s) > Dynaco ST-70 (Fully rebuilt using SDS Labs driver board, Mullard 5AR4 > RCA CT 12au7 > TFK EF-86 > Amperex EL-34s) > Large Advents (rebuilt X-over using Solen Caps)  <-- all vintage, all the time! ;D
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 23, 2005, 07:32:57 PM
all I have are:

the stock chinese el34's that came with my asl
Svetlana el34's
JJ/Tesla ecc82 12au7's
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 23, 2005, 07:49:40 PM
Quote
This should be a fun little project and a nice reference to make sure you're getting legit tubes.  I've got the following covered:

There are also some key things to look for with different brands (many were mfg'd by a handfull of companys then OEM'd to others):
Telefunken small tubes nearly always have a <> diamond set into the glass between the pins
Mullard EL-34s have a hole in the guide tube and usually an xf# date code etched in the glass
Telefunken (the good ones) EL-34s have double halo getters
Telefunken's ink sluffs off very easily especially when hot
GE etched their info into many older tubes
RCA etched thier info with a {} bracket around it


Good points, I'll add a bit more... Amperex and Siemens miniature tubes have visible ridges on the top of the tube, on some four ridges will be visible in other only two are, if they don't have ridges they're relabeled tubes.  Early tube manufacturers used chalky paint, some cleaver counterfeiters are manufacturing tubes in China with the Telefunken <> on the bottom but using the acrylic? label, if it doesn't rub of easily it's a fake.  Also if anyone is interested I've come across a factory code list which can be helpful to pinpoint where a specific tube was made, I'd attach but it's too big so PM or email me if you're interested.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: twoodruff on February 23, 2005, 08:28:11 PM
is there a site to read about tubes and their different attributes, I think I am about to get a nice intergrated and am interested in what can change with the roll of a tube
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 23, 2005, 08:59:04 PM
audioasylum is your friend :)

this is an faq about some various tubes
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html

I just search the tube asylum a lot and read old threads. there's a lot of crap to wade through and the board features are pretty primitive but they've got a ton of great info

edit for valley girl speech pattern
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: ducati on February 24, 2005, 08:25:29 AM
It can't hurt to look.   :)

Yeah, right.  I've told myself that before.

Is there a guide for tubes with pictures?  I got extra sets of tubes from the previous owner of my amp and I can't read the labels on the small tubes, but maybe I can match up a pictures.

Are Ei tubes any good?  Thats what KT90s I have in there right now.

The Ei KT90 is an odd tube.  It is rumored to be a modified TV tube in a bottle that looks somewhat like a fatter EL34 (with a cool little tip), and made to slot into an amp that normally uses 6550's.  It doesn't produce as much peak voltage as a true 6550 (somewhere on the order of 20% less IIRC) which is a significant decrease from a true 6550, and points to the modified TV tube roots.  Some people really like this tube; I haven't tried it because of the odd lineage, and the fact it might not bias correctly in some amps (especially my ARC which doesn't have a huge range on it's bias pots)... 

What amp do you own?  I'd be interested to see who's using these as stock items.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Lil Kim Jong-Il on February 24, 2005, 01:03:36 PM
What amp do you own?  I'd be interested to see who's using these as stock items.

CJ Premier 11A.  The CJ ships with 6550s.  I got the KT90s with the amp from the previous owner.  He told me that this is a common swap for the 11A to get more bass.  Although I can't really say that there is more bass than the 6550s I pulled.  I should swap back and see what happens.

I didn't have any issue biasing the KT90s in the amp.  The current setting is not near the end of the range.

Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 28, 2005, 06:31:09 PM
Alright I've had a chance to toy around with some tube rolling and thought I'd post some results for those of you that might be interested.  I guess for the sake of clarity I should mention my setup which is APL Hifi DV-563a > PrimaLuna ProLouge One > Magnepan MMGs, using magwire interconnects and Chris Ven Haus recipe DIY speaker cables.  I should also mention I used Svetlana C logo EL34s for the entire comparison.  OK here goes:

12AU7:

RFT 12AU7:  These were purchased from Ned at Triode Electronics for $14 a piece, I think I snagged the last matched pair but there are a couple more singles available.  These are the newest of the lot dating from the 1980s and have a very different internal structure than the rest of the tubes (smaller plates, more simplified design.)  My initial impression about these were that they were pretty well balanced from top to bottom with nice detail throughout.  They had a pretty well defined soundstage with nice separation, more so than the rest of the lot.  Also these are pretty transparent without a whole lot of warmth, I really liked them with the Sylvania 5751s but not quite as much with the Tele 12AX7s.  If I could only own one type of 12AU7 this would probably be it, while it isn't the best it is the most consistant.

Cifte 12AU7WA:  I picked these up from Upscale Audio for $25 a piece after talking with Kevin Deal.  I believe they were made in France in the late 1950s or early 1960s by Mazda.  My initial thought about these were that they seemed just a little thin and touch bright which is actually what I was looking for.  These were a perfect match for the Sylvanias because the they didn't over emphasize the midrange like some of the other tubes and added a nice high end sparkle which I felt was missing from all of the others.  On the other hand these didn't mate well with the Telefunkens, the sound was way too bright and thin.  I think these are very system dependant and in most circumstances probably wouldn't be the best option.  As always YMMV

RCA 12AU7 Cleartop:  I found these dirt cheap on Audiogon ($5 each) so I decided to pick up a quad to see if they were really as good as advertised.  I was immediately impressed, they have a very nice smooth range with a beautiful midrange, above average highs and very tight bass.  The soundstage was pretty good, they're definately more musical than the RFTs or Ciftes and probably on the same level as the Amperexes.  I really loved these with the Telefunkens, I think they're pretty close to the perfect combination of detail and musicality.  Once you factor in the cost these are a no brainer, I highly recommend them.

Amperex 12AU7A Orange Globe:  These are the late 1960s - early 1970s variety which followed the famed Bugleboys.  These were by far the most expensive of the lot at $40 a piece which is actually pretty low for these.  The first thing I noticed was the very smooth and musical midrange much like the RCAs but these had a little more extension on the highs.  All considered these sound just slightly more detailed than the RCAs without sacrificing the natural, musical sound.  These were probably the overall "best" in my system though I'm not sure they're worth the dramatic difference in price.

Overall my favorite combinations would probably go like this:

1.  Telefunken 12AX7 > Amperex 12AU7
2.  Telefunken 12AX7 > RCA 12AU7
2.  Sylvania 5751 > Cifte 12AU7WA

The differerence between the Amperex and RCA 12AU7s was fairly minor, with the slight edge going to the Amperexes.  While it isn't in any of my "favorite" combinations if I had to choose only one 12AU7 it would probably be the RFT because it sounded pretty good with both the Sylvanias and the Telefunkens, unlike the others.  Unless you really need to brighten up your system I'd probably avoid the Cifte because I think in most circumstances it would sound way to bright and would be downright fatiguing to listen to.  I think that's all I have to say on these, hopefully it was somewhat helpful to those who are looking to roll 12AU7s.  I'm currently looking to add a couple 12AX7s / 5751s and I'll share some thoughts on those after they arrive.

Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 28, 2005, 06:36:19 PM
thanks Nick! +T for taking the time to review these tubes for us...

are the svetlanas treating you well?

thanks again!
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 28, 2005, 06:42:33 PM
thanks Nick! +T for taking the time to review these tubes for us...

are the svetlanas treating you well?

thanks again!

They're a big upgrade from what I was using, they've really opened up the midrange and tightened up the bass.  I'm pretty sure they're good enough to keep me from buying any NOS EL34s, though I think I have a couple freebie NOS EL34s which may or may not change my mind.   :)
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 28, 2005, 06:49:22 PM
they definitely effected my bass the most...

try the NOS though, you know you want to :P
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Nick Culbreth on February 28, 2005, 07:02:20 PM
they definitely effected my bass the most...

try the NOS though, you know you want to :P

Yes I do, but my bank account says otherwise.  I think I can get my hands on a couple American NOS brands for free, I guess I'll see how they fare.  I honestly wouldn't be too disappointed if the Svetlanas were better.  By the way, thanks for the Svet recommendation they're really nice.  ;D
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 28, 2005, 07:03:15 PM
glad you like them, they seem to be very highly regarded and I would have to agree :)
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: ducati on February 28, 2005, 07:06:56 PM
Woohoo that's alotta tube rolling!   ;D

Lots of fun.  I should have a similar report on 12AX7's soon  ;D
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on February 28, 2005, 07:17:36 PM
there's been some great tube info on here lately, keep up the good work guys!
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: twoodruff on March 01, 2005, 05:15:39 PM
http://vacuumtubesinc.com/

found this little gem and spoke with Jim today, very nerdy sounding, just like you want your tube guy to be.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: Tim on March 01, 2005, 06:51:54 PM
http://vacuumtubesinc.com/

found this little gem and spoke with Jim today, very nerdy sounding, just like you want your tube guy to be.

ha!
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: ducati on March 02, 2005, 07:34:35 AM
I just received a brace of tubes from Boi Audio Works.  Great pre-sale responsiveness over email, and about the fastest shipping I have ever seen.  Seems like a good guy, too.
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: cheshirecat on March 02, 2005, 09:36:30 PM
mmm telefunken...

Quad of ribbed plate 12ax7s, packing up some crap i have laying around and came across these guys, forgot i pulled em from my old pre.


Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: cheshirecat on March 02, 2005, 09:55:10 PM
Amperex Bugle Boy EF-86 mesh plates...

Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: cheshirecat on March 02, 2005, 10:02:55 PM
RCA Black Plate 12AU7

Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: twoodruff on March 02, 2005, 10:08:52 PM
i think we should have some tube swapping if others are interested, let you know how the sound changes with a tube change
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: ducati on March 03, 2005, 08:26:33 AM
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, tube porn  ;D
Title: Re: New Toys
Post by: BobW on March 07, 2005, 07:04:38 PM
I don't know about you, but mesh plates get me all giddy.     ;)    ;D