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Gear / Technical Help => Playback Forum => Topic started by: lds490 on February 24, 2005, 02:01:47 PM
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My home playback system consists entirely of moderate-to-low-end consumer electronics (YAMAHA HTR5590 A/V Receiver). Most of my connections are digital optical or coaxial into the receiver (using the receiver's on-board DAC). I do have a couple of analog IC's, plus some composite video cables. All of the IC's in my system (digital or anaolog) are consumer grade, but not the cheap garbage that come with components.
Considering that I am not running a high-end audiophile system, am I correct in thinking that high-end IC's should not be a priority for me? In other words, I can get more bang for my buck by upgrading other components first.
Can anyone recommend a manufacturer or distributor of quality IC's for consumer-grade Hi-Fi? Where do I go to buy decent, moderately-priced cables.
Which type of cable upgrade (speaker, IC, or power) provides the greatest benefits to the sound of my system?
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Your signal is only as strong as it's weakest link!!!
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I agree IC's make a difference...for analog...but I have never been sold on expensive data cables...bits are bits...if they get to their desitnation, they get there..unlike analog, where it can make a difference in the sound. I do agree that it can make a difference with build quality, but otherwise....
analog though...can make a significant difference
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can you solder?
if so, build some with some quality cable for mere pennies compared to the expensive premade stuff.
interconnects do make a difference.
I have soldered in the past. Any recommendations on what cable/parts to buy, or where to get them? Can an amateur make high-end ICs at home, or do I need specialized techniques or equipment?
I accept that ICs do make a difference, but how much of a difference. I've checked out Audiogon and see that ICs cost anywhere from $50 -$1,000+ (some significantly more than $1,000). I'm using consumer grade (Acoustic Research, I think) IC's that are not total garbage, but clearly not audiophile grade. How much difference will upgrading these make on my system? How much will it cost? Is it worth the money when I'm running a modest system to begin with?
Is there a middle ground IC between what I've got now and the very expensive cables?
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the kimber pbjs are middle of the rad, there is a pair for sale in the yard sale
:P
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I was just going to post the same thing re the kimber pbj's -- If you were to pick those up and determine that they do make a difference, you could experiment with other avenues.
Folks like leegeddy (sp?) and ed boardman at kindkables.com make nice upgrade interconnects using canare starquad cabling and quality terminations (switchcraft/neutrik) which would run a bit less than the pbjs and could also make a difference -- all depends on what you hear (or think you hear) -- these can be homemade too, check out markertek.com, etc. for parts.
Speaker cables, again the sky's the limit -- folks seem happy with the improvement they notice from canare starquad speakercables too (ditto for cables made from home depot extension cords)
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I have the canare speaker cables (4S-11 I believe) and it was a marked improvement from what I had before...
and I would also recommend legeddys stuff...I have made my own interconnects, and he does a much better job at a very reasonable cost...
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I made my interconnects out of Belden 89207 cable and they were a substantial upgrade from the Monster and Radio Shack premium cables I had been using. There are lots of good DIY cable recipes around, depending on how much you're willing to spend. Check out:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/cables.htm
http://www.venhaus1.com/
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There are tons of DIY recipes around... Personally I buy off the shelf but that's because my local dealer always makes me killer deals on demo cables I would never plunk the cash down for at retail :)
I would certainly buy a pair of speaker cables and your most important interconnect (usually CDP to preamp, in your case I am assuming this will be a digital cable) and see what you think. I used to think decent cables were just fine, but when I replaced my AudioQuest Type 4+ speaker cable with shotgunned Kimber 4TC and then MIT MH750 Biwire I was blown away... I am a firm believer now!!
Don't replace everything whole-hog, if you don't care about your cable/dss > receiver as much as your music, save your money there and put it into the two most important mentioned above.
As for power cables... They can make a difference, but power conditioning is far more important IMO.
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Cables make a HUGE difference in my opinion. Whether digital or analog, you will hear the differnce if you have the resolution in your system to reproduce it. Analog cables vary so much from manufacturer to manufacturer that to reccomend one over another really won't tell you much anyway. DIY is great for cables on the cheap, but that is about it. Spend 30 hours making cat5 cables for speakers, and you get maybe a 100 dollar pair of speaker cables at best. Take the Bolder m-80's vs. diy cat5 venhaus design. The differnce in price was maybe 50 bucks when buying used, and the cables weren't even close when it came to detail, reproduction, speed etc. Now, step up to the 550 dollar Nitro's, and again, a large improvement. What I have found is the difference between 10 and 100 dollar cables is huge, anything above that and you are paying more for perfection than anything else. Really a law of dimishing returns I would say. Spend 200 bucks on IC's you will be very happy, spend 3 grand and you will be more happy, but was it worth the 2800 bucks? Probably not, but you will hear a differnce. I would compare this genre really to the ua-5/v3 debate. Does the v3 sound better? In most cases, I would answer yes. Does it sound 700 dollars better, only you can decide that.
While making your own cables is fun and rewarding, stepping up to something in the 150-200 range will make you much happier. That said, IMHO, the best DIY IC's are the venhaus silver ones at the aforementioned website. Easy to make, and they sound quite good. Can you do better? Let your ears decide.
D
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Search audioasylum for the Home Depot speaker cables DIY project. TAS tested them against some decent cables and they weren't completely outclassed (especially for the price).
I should also mention that cables are kinda like tubes--what's good for one rig isn't at all good for another. Use them to tweak your sound. Some will call this heresy, akin to adding in tone controls :o
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slight thread hijack, but would it be considered and upgrade to go from phoenix gold 12ga speaker wire> 14ga home depot cable? just curious. my ears are not golden fwiw.
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Cables make a HUGE difference in my opinion. Whether digital or analog, you will hear the differnce if you have the resolution in your system to reproduce it.
what exactly do you hear different from different types of digital cables? I can buy that argument that better digital cables will reduce data loss, but that is it. You cant warm up a digital signal like you can an analog signal...
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Search audioasylum for the Home Depot speaker cables DIY project. TAS tested them against some decent cables and they weren't completely outclassed (especially for the price).
there's a thread on here about those cables... I use them for my speakers for right now
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you guys ever try those nitro cables - those things are big-bucks and outta my league, atm, but i wonder if they make a $300 difference...
and, nickgregory - i have the exact same understanding as you re: digital cables. but i am always open to learning something new. btw, what digital cables do you use..?
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I haven't done alot of digital cable swapping, so I can't comment on the importance of hyper-expensive digital cables. I would say, though, make sure you use a cable designed for digital signals, and not some rebranded analog cable--the digital "signal" is a very different bandwidth and using analog cables will cause a hardening and rolled off sound in my experience. I suppose this is probably related to attentuation of parts of the signal, but also to jitter.
I personally listened to 4 or 5 digi cables and just settled on MIT AVT1 for my "reference" cable. It sounded as good as anything else I tried, is well-built, works just fine, and isn't badly priced to boot.
Right now I am using the digital cable that came with my ack dAck! 2.0, and it works fine, too.
Analog cables, OTOH, make a huge and very noticeable difference.
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I would agree that analog cables definitely can make a difference.
macdaddy in terms of what I use today, I have 3 sets of digital in my system today...one is a coax brand that I dont remember that Jason B gave me (extremely durable), another is a homemade canare coax, and I have a bettercables optical cable (beffy make).
My opinion, the key with digital cables is to get something well made, and as ducati pointed out, something that is rated for digital signals (i.e. dont use a single RCA cable)...
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Cables make a HUGE difference in my opinion. Whether digital or analog, you will hear the differnce if you have the resolution in your system to reproduce it.
what exactly do you hear different from different types of digital cables? I can buy that argument that better digital cables will reduce data loss, but that is it. You cant warm up a digital signal like you can an analog signal...
I hear more detail, better definaition of the top end, better, and much more refined bottom end reproduction. I honestly think they make a difference. My system I have is designed to be extremely neutral. I don't want anything to "warm up" the sound at all. I want to hear the sound reproduced pretty much exactly as I capture it. I agree, digital cables will not warm a sound like analog cables will. If you want warm, the best copper cable will be to your liking. Personally, everything I have is now based on silver, as I want LOTS of detail.
Daryan
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The nitros rock. That said, can you afford 300 shipped? I know for a fact that as of yesterday, Wayne at Bolder had an 8 foot demo pair, as I bought one and there is one more availible. He will switch out the terminations for you for no charge as well. I realize 550 is a lot for speaker cables, but for 300, I got another pair. I have a pair of m-80's you can borrow if you like. They are not being used and sound very good.
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Cables make a HUGE difference in my opinion. Whether digital or analog, you will hear the differnce if you have the resolution in your system to reproduce it.
what exactly do you hear different from different types of digital cables? I can buy that argument that better digital cables will reduce data loss, but that is it. You cant warm up a digital signal like you can an analog signal...
I hear more detail, better definaition of the top end, better, and much more refined bottom end reproduction. I honestly think they make a difference. My system I have is designed to be extremely neutral. I don't want anything to "warm up" the sound at all. I want to hear the sound reproduced pretty much exactly as I capture it. I agree, digital cables will not warm a sound like analog cables will. If you want warm, the best copper cable will be to your liking. Personally, everything I have is now based on silver, as I want LOTS of detail.
Daryan
I still dont buy it...bits are bits, as long as the cable isnt losing anything (which I agree cables without proper shielding can be subject to that), you will hear zero difference in between cables (speaking only for digital here). A silver cable, or copper cable, if connectorized properly and has the right shielding should have no audible difference. If you are hearing a difference, it is either (1) self convinced (which I have beeen guilty of when using expensive cables), or (2) shotty build quality/material on your comparison
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http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=cables&m=82438
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=cables&n=100337&highlight=digital+cables&r=&session=
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/jitter.htm (http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/jitter.htm)
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so for the most part (minus a few outliers which I will consider to be folks who paid alot of money for cables who have to hear a difference), they are making the same argument I do....interference rejection, and quality manufacture and materials, reduces jitter...I dont care if you have a silver digi cable, if it isnt shielded right, it will sound worse than a quality copper equivalent...
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I'll post a little more later, but I don't think I am disagreeing that a crappy cable is a crappy cable, but if what you say holds true, then a 2000 cable in theory must be better constructed than a 50 dollar cable, and hence would sound better, even with the aformentioned statements. Am I missing your arguement (bad choice of words, I know)?
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I'll post a little more later, but I don't think I am disagreeing that a crappy cable is a crappy cable, but if what you say holds true, then a 2000 cable in theory must be better constructed than a 50 dollar cable, and hence would sound better, even with the aformentioned statements. Am I missing your arguement (bad choice of words, I know)?
I just think that the level of dimishing returns with digital cables happens significantly earlier in the cost cycle than with analog......dont know the cost breaks, but I would go out on a limb and say that a quality constructed coax out of canare, that costs lets say $50, vs. a $500 coax with gold tips and silver cable...the difference would be significantly minor, and I would guess that it would not even be audible for most systems out there...
though I havent experimented with any of this, and the above is pure guesswork on my part based on my understanding of data transmission
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I don't claim to be an expert by any means.I am clearly bored at work today. It appears the debate about digital cables rages on and on and I haven't found one difinitive answer in all of my looking. I wouldn't even dream of spending more than 100 bucks on a digital cable, and I agree, the law with digital cables isn't nearly as widespread as with analog cables. My silver cable was on clearance from cryotweaks for 40 bucks...
More links I have dug up fwiw,
This is so informative, highly reccomended reading
http://www.audioholics.com/FAQs/silversmithaudiocables.php
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http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/digitalcables_e.html
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I still dont buy it...bits are bits, as long as the cable isnt losing anything (which I agree cables without proper shielding can be subject to that), you will hear zero difference in between cables (speaking only for digital here).
As far as I am concerned, a 75 ohm cable is a 75 ohm cable. Whether it is made of copper or silver, as Nick said, a bit is a bit. As long as all the bits that are sent arrive at the destination, it is up to your DAC and your analog IC's to add flavor and make them sound "better". I disagree when people claim to hear a difference with digital coaxial cables. As long as it is 75, or 110 ohms, it's doing it's job completely.
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As far as I am concerned, a 75 ohm cable is a 75 ohm cable. Whether it is made of copper or silver, a bit is a bit. As long as all the bits that are sent arrive at the destination, it is up to your DAC and your analog IC's to add flavor and make them sound "better". I disagree when people claim to hear a difference with digital coaxial cables. As long as it is 75, or 110 ohms, it's doing it's job completely.
here here! complete agreement.
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I still dont buy it...bits are bits, as long as the cable isnt losing anything (which I agree cables without proper shielding can be subject to that), you will hear zero difference in between cables (speaking only for digital here).
As far as I am concerned, a 75 ohm cable is a 75 ohm cable. Whether it is made of copper or silver, a bit is a bit. As long as all the bits that are sent arrive at the destination, it is up to your DAC and your analog IC's to add flavor and make them sound "better". I disagree when people claim to hear a difference with digital coaxial cables. As long as it is 75, or 110 ohms, it's doing it's job completely.
leave it to Jason to take my layman idiot speak, add some numbers to it, and say what I was trying to say 8)
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Will I spend $50-100 on a digi cable? Probably, but only because the soldering and overall construction is probably better than the $25 cable. Will I spend more...nope! Analog IC are a different story.
sc.