Topic: Recorded for the first time in 7 years... terrible results... input needed plz

[su6oxone]

Dear comrades, I just taped my first show in 7 years tonight (Eve 7 near Baltimore, MD) using my new Edirol R-09, my (seven year old) AT853 mics, and an old sound pro battery box (also seven years old, not using bass roll off).  It's a small venue (few hundred capacity I would guess) shaped like a rectangle with two huge stacks on either side of the stage.  HUGE BASS coming out during all sets.  I had years ago used my Sharp MD recorder to tape U2, black crowes, pharcyde, and some other shows, using the same mics and battery box (with no bass roll off), and never had a problem with bass. 

At this show, the bass was heavy, but I was shocked at how distorted it sounded when I played it back at home.  Previous shows in 2001 were fine, bass heavy but not distorted.  Now, I'm wondering if the battery pack has been damaged by battery leakage due to leaving the same 9V battery inside connected for 7 years!  The reason I wonder this is because I noticed that when the band started playing, at usual loud rock concert levels, I had to keep the input level at 4 to keep from clipping even.  I was afraid that going lower would cause attenuation of the signal but maybe that was the mistake (levels were between -6 and 0 most of the time but no clipping light). 

I was surprised because at other loud shows with my MD recorder I did not have to set the levels so low to avoid clipping.  Would this indicate a malfunctioning battery box?  Anyway, I posted a similar post on the computer section (for help on how to master/edit the resulting audio files) in case anyone has any ideas or suggestions.  Thanks for reading and for any suggestions! 

http://www.mediafire.com/?4ostznmhjgk

[Nick's Picks]

did you run "mic in" ?
try line in.

[Belexes]

Fresh battery, line-in, and the 853's have been known to distort at high SPL's.

[KLowe]

what they said.....

also record at 24 bit and set your levels conservatively.  Add gain in post.

[su6oxone]

Thank you guys for your input.  I did use the line-in, used a new 9V battery, and had the input only at 4.  Perhaps I should set the input at 2 or 3?  Definitely should have used bass roll-off I guess, but which frequencies (e.g. how much)?  What was unexpected was that I never had this kind of severe bass distortion when recording loud rock concerts in the past with the same gear (except a Sharp MD recorder instead of R-09). 

edit: +T for the help guys

[Belexes]

I'd rule out the R-09.  I doubt that was the problem, but I wish I could help more as to what it was.

[datbrad]

Actually, the R09 may be the issue, but not due to any problems or weaknesses of that unit. The R09, like all uncompressed wave recorders, is far more sensitive to the audible spectrum than any standard MD can capture. I expect that some of the bass distortion you are hearing was being produced by the mics before, only the Sharp MD (I have one myself) does not have the ability to capture the very low end where the distortion resides and you simply were lucky for this. I can tell you as many on this forum can attest that it is very common to put a new and more advanced recorder behind an existing mic/pre setup only to have wrinkles and warts from the mics come out to the front and make one think, have my mics gone bad? I know tapers that have run budget mics put a higer end preamp/AD into the mix, only to be forced to step up to much more expensive mics. It's a common problem. Since it sounds like you are stealthing, I would suggest you look into the Church Audio line of mics and preamps. They are reasonably priced, well built, and will outperform your current mics using an R09. Also, as a side note, never leave akaline batteries in any equipment for long term storage, as these batteries can decay and leak and will cause irreversable damage to the components inside.

[su6oxone]

Thanks for the input, +T, that makes a lot of sense.  Do you think the Church CA-11 mics would do better with high SPL than the AT853s (unmodded)?  Thanks.

Actually, the R09 may be the issue, but not due to any problems or weaknesses of that unit. The R09, like all uncompressed wave recorders, is far more sensitive to the audible spectrum than any standard MD can capture. I expect that some of the bass distortion you are hearing was being produced by the mics before, only the Sharp MD (I have one myself) does not have the ability to capture the very low end where the distortion resides and you simply were lucky for this. I can tell you as many on this forum can attest that it is very common to put a new and more advanced recorder behind an existing mic/pre setup only to have wrinkles and warts from the mics come out to the front and make one think, have my mics gone bad? I know tapers that have run budget mics put a higer end preamp/AD into the mix, only to be forced to step up to much more expensive mics. It's a common problem. Since it sounds like you are stealthing, I would suggest you look into the Church Audio line of mics and preamps. They are reasonably priced, well built, and will outperform your current mics using an R09. Also, as a side note, never leave akaline batteries in any equipment for long term storage, as these batteries can decay and leak and will cause irreversable damage to the components inside.

[youngsbest]

Hi.  Having listened to your sample, the recorder is overlaoding. I don't think it's anything do do with bass, there is a problem somewhere else.  I have a similar setup to you, and running 853>battery box > line in you should see a level of around 20 (depending on how load the PA is, of course) to peak at about -6db on the Edirol. 

The fact that you were at rec level 4 means there is a problem. You are not running through an external pre-amp so a level of 4 is completely wrong. So it's either mics, battery box or the recorder at fault.

I suggest you try to isolate what is going wrong by a process of elimination.

Plug your mics into the mic in input of the R09 - making sure that plug in power is enabled - and hold the mics up to the speaker of your hifi, at a fairly loud volume, then adjust the level untill you peak at -6db. Make sure the R09 settings are at low mic gain, AGC and low cut off. Now plug the mics into the battery box, and go mic in from the bb, and see what level you need to peak  at - 6bd.

In the first case you should need an input level of 20 (+ or - 5) to get a decent level, and a similar level when you introduce the battery box.  If the levels are wildey different, then there is a problem with the battery box.

Also try mics>battery box> line in and see what input level you need to set.

The 853s can distort at very high sound levels, but as you have not had this problem using mini-disc, it seems like you may have a battery box problem.



Now

[Dede2002]

Thanks for the input, +T, that makes a lot of sense.  Do you think the Church CA-11 mics would do better with high SPL than the AT853s (unmodded)?  Thanks.

Actually, the R09 may be the issue, but not due to any problems or weaknesses of that unit. The R09, like all uncompressed wave recorders, is far more sensitive to the audible spectrum than any standard MD can capture. I expect that some of the bass distortion you are hearing was being produced by the mics before, only the Sharp MD (I have one myself) does not have the ability to capture the very low end where the distortion resides and you simply were lucky for this. I can tell you as many on this forum can attest that it is very common to put a new and more advanced recorder behind an existing mic/pre setup only to have wrinkles and warts from the mics come out to the front and make one think, have my mics gone bad? I know tapers that have run budget mics put a higer end preamp/AD into the mix, only to be forced to step up to much more expensive mics. It's a common problem. Since it sounds like you are stealthing, I would suggest you look into the Church Audio line of mics and preamps. They are reasonably priced, well built, and will outperform your current mics using an R09. Also, as a side note, never leave akaline batteries in any equipment for long term storage, as these batteries can decay and leak and will cause irreversable damage to the components inside.

High SPL? Try Microphone Madness HLSC-1 . Sounds great and you can tape a jet engine with them. It's a high SPL beast.

[Church-Audio]

Thanks for the input, +T, that makes a lot of sense.  Do you think the Church CA-11 mics would do better with high SPL than the AT853s (unmodded)?  Thanks.

Actually, the R09 may be the issue, but not due to any problems or weaknesses of that unit. The R09, like all uncompressed wave recorders, is far more sensitive to the audible spectrum than any standard MD can capture. I expect that some of the bass distortion you are hearing was being produced by the mics before, only the Sharp MD (I have one myself) does not have the ability to capture the very low end where the distortion resides and you simply were lucky for this. I can tell you as many on this forum can attest that it is very common to put a new and more advanced recorder behind an existing mic/pre setup only to have wrinkles and warts from the mics come out to the front and make one think, have my mics gone bad? I know tapers that have run budget mics put a higer end preamp/AD into the mix, only to be forced to step up to much more expensive mics. It's a common problem. Since it sounds like you are stealthing, I would suggest you look into the Church Audio line of mics and preamps. They are reasonably priced, well built, and will outperform your current mics using an R09. Also, as a side note, never leave akaline batteries in any equipment for long term storage, as these batteries can decay and leak and will cause irreversable damage to the components inside.

There is nothing wrong with the mics you have. You just need to do my mod to them. If you need help figuring out how to do it let me know or if your not good with a soldering iron I can do it for you for $25.00 + return shipping.

Chris

[su6oxone]

Hi.  Having listened to your sample, the recorder is overloading. I don't think it's anything do do with bass, there is a problem somewhere else.  I have a similar setup to you, and running 853>battery box > line in you should see a level of around 20 (depending on how load the PA is, of course) to peak at about -6db on the Edirol. 

The fact that you were at rec level 4 means there is a problem. You are not running through an external pre-amp so a level of 4 is completely wrong. So it's either mics, battery box or the recorder at fault.

I suggest you try to isolate what is going wrong by a process of elimination.

Plug your mics into the mic in input of the R09 - making sure that plug in power is enabled - and hold the mics up to the speaker of your hifi, at a fairly loud volume, then adjust the level untill you peak at -6db. Make sure the R09 settings are at low mic gain, AGC and low cut off. Now plug the mics into the battery box, and go mic in from the bb, and see what level you need to peak  at - 6bd.

In the first case you should need an input level of 20 (+ or - 5) to get a decent level, and a similar level when you introduce the battery box.  If the levels are wildey different, then there is a problem with the battery box.

Also try mics>battery box> line in and see what input level you need to set.

The 853s can distort at very high sound levels, but as you have not had this problem using mini-disc, it seems like you may have a battery box problem.

Thanks a lot (+T) for your careful analysis.  I was thinking also that the battery box (that had a 9V battery connected for 7 years) might be the source of the problem, as I don't remember having to set the input level so low when using my Sharp MD recorder to record loud rock concerts (using line-in).  I'll definitely give you suggestion to determine if the battery box is the problem when I get home tomorrow, but if testing the input levels when only changing the use of battery box or not, wouldn't the levels be lower with the battery box being used since they're being powered now?  Thx again!

[su6oxone]

Dede2002:
Thx for the tip, those mics look pretty good! 

Church-Audio:
Chris, thx for the suggestion.  I think I may just opt for your CA-11's instead with the 9100 promo.  I'll email you today probably with request for info on how to complete transaction. 

Thx everyone.. +T

[Dede2002]

Dede2002:
Thx for the tip, those mics look pretty good! 

Church-Audio:
Chris, thx for the suggestion.  I think I may just opt for your CA-11's instead with the 9100 promo.  I'll email you today probably with request for info on how to complete transaction. 

Thx everyone.. +T

No problem
+T and enjoy your new gear.

[nameloc01]

You should be running those 3wire 853s with a 3wire power supply, not a soundpros 2wire BB. That is paramount. If you don't, they will clip at high spls, if you do what I said, they will not clip. Also,with loud shows, run >line in , not >mic in.

[su6oxone]

You should be running those 3wire 853s with a 3wire power supply, not a soundpros 2wire BB. That is paramount. If you don't, they will clip at high spls, if you do what I said, they will not clip. Also,with loud shows, run >line in , not >mic in.

Hi, and thx.  Do you know if the Church 9100 preamp is 3-wire?  +T

[nameloc01]

You'd have to ask Chris.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I love the r09 BUT... It distorts bass if you run the level setting below 8.  7 may be okay, 6 is getting risky.
 
You ran the r09 at 4, so I would expect the bass to distort badly.  You will get the distortion even if the levels never go above -6dB (they generally won't go above that when this is happening).  You can easily reproduce this by hooking the r09 up to your stereo, etc. To run with levels that hot, you will need an attenuator.  Probably -10 or -15.

As other folks have mentioned, the 853's can have other issues in bass-heavy environments. That may have also contributed to the problem.

[su6oxone]

I love the r09 BUT... It distorts bass if you run the level setting below 8.  7 may be okay, 6 is getting risky.
 
You ran the r09 at 4, so I would expect the bass to distort badly.  You will get the distortion even if the levels never go above -6dB (they generally won't go above that when this is happening).  You can easily reproduce this by hooking the r09 up to your stereo, etc. To run with levels that hot, you will need an attenuator.  Probably -10 or -15.

As other folks have mentioned, the 853's can have other issues in bass-heavy environments. That may have also contributed to the problem.

FreeLunch, thank you for your input, +T.  Didn't know about the bass distortion below input level of 8 ("unity" I guess).  I'm planning on using a 9100 preamp for future tapings, so hopefully that will help, and perhaps using bass roll off (80khz on the 9100 I think) will help even if I have to use levels below 8, although hopefully I won't.  Think I'll have to go to a few more "practice" shows to get some more experimenting before I tape the Cult and Van Halen in April.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Wouldn't adding a pre-amp to the chain result in even higher levels at the r09?  A simple 1/8 to 1/8 inline attenuator would be inexpensive insurance to have on hand.

[Belexes]

Wouldn't adding a pre-amp to the chain result in even higher levels at the r09? 

If he runs 8+ on the R-09 and 11:00 O'Clock on the 9100, he should be fine, with any needed gain to be had from the pre.

[SmokinJoe]

Thank you guys for your input.  I did use the line-in, used a new 9V battery, and had the input only at 4.  Perhaps I should set the input at 2 or 3?

I believe it's overloaded mics.  I have AT-853s > batt box > R-09 line in.  If the volume is such that I get nice levels with gain at 20, then it's not "too loud" and it will sound great.  If I have to run the gain down around 8 then it's loud enough that the AT853s are being squashed.  If you are at 4, you are definitely seeing that.

We're talking standard At-853s, not 3 wire, not 4.7k mod... here right?  and I they don't like FOB 120db stuff.

That's my 2 cents worth anyway...

[nameloc01]

Standard 853s are 3 wire, and if you run them 3 wire they will not clip at 120db. I do it all the time.a 2 wire wire BB do not power them correctly and they will clip at moderate to loud spls. Simple as that.

[nameloc01]

I'm gonna say this, then go feed my pitbull some kittens,...

Go here:
www.collectiveunconscious.org

Click on the 2007 at the top.
Go to the info/source pages for these shows:
6/5/07. 6/7/07. 7/1/03.(My source)  7/3/07.(My source)

Listen to the samples. TOOL are one of the loudest bands around. These shows were recorded using a 3wire setup, notice there is no clipping. Those mics need to be powered correcly to achieve maximum performance.

[su6oxone]

Thank you guys for your input.  I did use the line-in, used a new 9V battery, and had the input only at 4.  Perhaps I should set the input at 2 or 3?

I believe it's overloaded mics.  I have AT-853s > batt box > R-09 line in.  If the volume is such that I get nice levels with gain at 20, then it's not "too loud" and it will sound great.  If I have to run the gain down around 8 then it's loud enough that the AT853s are being squashed.  If you are at 4, you are definitely seeing that.

We're talking standard At-853s, not 3 wire, not 4.7k mod... here right?  and I they don't like FOB 120db stuff.

That's my 2 cents worth anyway...

Thanks for all the continued input and advice everyone!  Such a great site. 

SmokinJoe:
Yes, they are standard, unmodded AT853 mics, with a SP SPSB-2 9V battery pack and the R-09 using line-in.  Since you have the same setup (well, one of your setups), what do you think the issue is?  Is it odd to have to bring the input down to 4 at an average (not ear-splitting) loud rock show?  I thought the 9V would be enough for the AT853s, unless they are malfunctioning.  One thing I should have tried at the show is plugging the mics directly into the line-in and see if the levels changed without the battery box hooked up.  I'll need to do some testing at home tomorrow.  Hopefully it'll be better when I can try the 9100 instead of this old battery box!  Thx for the input, +T. 

[su6oxone]

Listen to the samples. TOOL are one of the loudest bands around. These shows were recorded using a 3wire setup, notice there is no clipping. Those mics need to be powered correcly to achieve maximum performance.

I'll have to ask Chris at SP about the battery box being 2 or 3 wire (I don't even know what that means really, guess I'll do a search heh).  Thx for the info!

[nameloc01]

I just told you what the exact problem was,you apparently do not want the answer.
Good luck.

[nameloc01]

I'm sure its a 2w.Chris at soundpros is gonna tell you the exact same thing I just did. 3w mics were meant to be ran with a 3w supply...not 3w mics with a 2w supply. That's why they are clipping. Very simple. Listen to those samples,you will see what I mean. You power them right, there isn't any concert that's gonna cause them to clip,not going to happen. Again, if you don't believe me,listen to those samples.

[su6oxone]

I'm sure its a 2w.Chris at soundpros is gonna tell you the exact same thing I just did. 3w mics were meant to be ran with a 3w supply...not 3w mics with a 2w supply. That's why they are clipping. Very simple. Listen to those samples,you will see what I mean. You power them right, there isn't any concert that's gonna cause them to clip,not going to happen. Again, if you don't believe me,listen to those samples.

Well, considering I bought both the AT853s and the battery box from SP, I'm not sure Chris would say that those mics shouldn't be run with that battery box for high SPL situations.  Also, I have used these mics with the same battery box to record loud rock shows without distortion or clipping years ago (only using a Sharp MD recorder and not the R-09) before my 7 year hiatus, so it's not entirely clear if it's the 2 or 3-wire issue or maybe just battery box malfuntion or an MD vs R-09 issue, but I will definitely investigate that possibility. 

Thanks again for all the help everyone!

[SmokinJoe]

I mis-spoke myself.  Sorry.  I thought 2 wire setup was "standard".  "Typical" would have been a better word.

By the way, if you run straight into line in with no batt box, you will have no power to the mics at all.  That's not going to work.

[su6oxone]

By the way, if you run straight into line in with no batt box, you will have no power to the mics at all.  That's not going to work.

Hmmm.. good point!  I forgot I thought my mics were dead when I tried that a few weeks ago.  Guess I'll try it with the mic-in like a previous poster suggested.  D'oh...

[Church-Audio]

Wouldn't adding a pre-amp to the chain result in even higher levels at the r09?  A simple 1/8 to 1/8 inline attenuator would be inexpensive insurance to have on hand.

You should not have any issue running a preamp into the r-09 when your using the line input. The r-09 can handle very high input levels on the line input.

[Church-Audio]

By the way, if you run straight into line in with no batt box, you will have no power to the mics at all.  That's not going to work.

Hmmm.. good point!  I forgot I thought my mics were dead when I tried that a few weeks ago.  Guess I'll try it with the mic-in like a previous poster suggested.  D'oh...

You have 4 options actually
1- You can convert the mics to three wire as has been suggested you will lose 13 db of gain. But your recordings will be distortion free.
OR

2- If you were planning on buying one of my 9100 preamps. I can do the 4.7k switch mod that allows you to run the mics 2 wire or run the mics with my 4.7k mod the advantage with this is simple you only lose 11.5 db or so of gain but you make up for it with my preamp. And it situations where its not loud you can turn off my 4.7k mod and get that 11.5 db back + an extra 20 db of noise free gain for doing quiet shows all in one small package.

3- You can simply do my 4.7k mod pretty easy to do and you dont have to buy anything else as a matter of fact you can do my 2.4k mod and run your mics directly from your R-09 with out any distortion what so ever for loud shows. You will have not as good signal to noise ratio because you will not be using a external preamp. But if your tapping really loud shows you might be able to get away with it.

Or

4- You go the route of buying phantom power adaptors and run your mics into a UA5 or some kind of phantom power adaptor into your r-09.


Chris

[su6oxone]

2- If you were planning on buying one of my 9100 preamps. I can do the 4.7k switch mod that allows you to run the mics 2 wire or run the mics with my 4.7k mod the advantage with this is simple you only lose 11.5 db or so of gain but you make up for it with my preamp. And it situations where its not loud you can turn off my 4.7k mod and get that 11.5 db back + an extra 20 db of noise free gain for doing quiet shows all in one small package.
Chris

Chris,
Once again, thanks for taking the time to give such great information.  The 4.7k mod is a mod to the mics, and so in the option #2, the preamp is just the standard 9100?  And the 4.7k mod can be turned on/off on the mics themselves?  The CA-11 mics, though, evidently do not require any mods and should do fine with high SPL, especially when hooked up to the 9100 preamp? 

p.s. FYI, I sent you an email today re: preamps/mics, etc... thx again!

[SmokinJoe]

You have my CA cards and 9100 coming as a loaner right?

Chris, correct me if I'm wrong... that preamp is 0-20db gain.  So if he turns it all the way down it basically becomes a battery box.  He can put it in line between the ATs and the R09, and if he doesn't need any gain, he just turns it down, and that's not a problem. Right?

[su6oxone]

You have my CA cards and 9100 coming as a loaner right?

Correct, and many thanks. 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Wouldn't adding a pre-amp to the chain result in even higher levels at the r09?  A simple 1/8 to 1/8 inline attenuator would be inexpensive insurance to have on hand.

You should not have any issue running a preamp into the r-09 when your using the line input. The r-09 can handle very high input levels on the line input.

"Should" doesn't mean much when you come home with a trashed recording. This isn't about high levels but heavy bass.   When you take into account that the r09 often distorts below setting 8, it doesn't have such great high level signal handling capability.  It is possible that the AT853 bass response is insufficiently low to cause this problem in the r09.

I've run the v3, aerco and eaa psp2 into the r09 many times behind Schoeps (mk21 & mk4) and Gefells. The first time I noticed it was on Geoerge Porter Jr's bass with stage lip mk21's.  I don't run any stinkin bass rolloff.  I doubt there would be a problem if the bass is neutered before it reaches the r09.

Maybe you have recorded with the r09 at low trim settings in intensive bass situations and had a difference experience.  But if you haven't, you should make it clear that you are just speculating.

[Church-Audio]

You have my CA cards and 9100 coming as a loaner right?

Chris, correct me if I'm wrong... that preamp is 0-20db gain.  So if he turns it all the way down it basically becomes a battery box.  He can put it in line between the ATs and the R09, and if he doesn't need any gain, he just turns it down, and that's not a problem. Right?

At 11o'clock its unity gain. Or no boost no cut. So if you want to run at unity gain then that's where you want to set it.

Chris

[Church-Audio]

Wouldn't adding a pre-amp to the chain result in even higher levels at the r09?  A simple 1/8 to 1/8 inline attenuator would be inexpensive insurance to have on hand.

You should not have any issue running a preamp into the r-09 when your using the line input. The r-09 can handle very high input levels on the line input.

"Should" doesn't mean much when you come home with a trashed recording. This isn't about high levels but heavy bass.   When you take into account that the r09 often distorts below setting 8, it doesn't have such great high level signal handling capability.  It is possible that the AT853 bass response is insufficiently low to cause this problem in the r09.

I've run the v3, aerco and eaa psp2 into the r09 many times behind Schoeps (mk21 & mk4) and Gefells. The first time I noticed it was on Geoerge Porter Jr's bass with stage lip mk21's.  I don't run any stinkin bass rolloff.  I doubt there would be a problem if the bass is neutered before it reaches the r09.

Maybe you have recorded with the r09 at low trim settings in intensive bass situations and had a difference experience.  But if you haven't, you should make it clear that you are just speculating.

On the r-09 the distortion percentage changes by maybe 1.50% on frequency.. Meaning its got a pretty liner distortion curve. I would suggest if your having distortion issues its not because your feeding the R-09 with "too much bass" its because your signal is too hot... Anything over 0db when the gain is set to 6 Is going to cause problems. If it was a really bad device we would expect to see more of a change but we do not. Its pretty smooth.

Here are my measurements on frequency based on a unity gain input of 0db in at level setting 6

20hz THD+N = 1.23% THD = 0.64%
30hz THD+N = 1.22%  THD = 0.641%
40hz  THD+N = 0.9%   THD = 0.83%
50hz  THD+N = 0.7%  THD = 0.62%
60hz THD+N = 0.5%  THD = 0.44%
70hz THD+N = 0.19% THD= 0.05%
100hz THD+N = 0.11% THD= 0.03%
1000hz THD+N = 0.02% THD= 0.02%

From this we can conclude that distortion does change with frequency but as I said its very little change and I am not sure anyone could hear it. And that was with the gain control set to 6 and my test analyser set to 0db out.
I suppose someone could argue that this is a distortion test not a listening test, and well that would be true but I would say if you can hear the difference in distortion between 0.04% and 0.9% you have bat ears.

Imo this device is fine feeding it any kind of signal as long as you dont go over 0db at its input. I would suggest running this thing at about -6db total signal input max for headroom. And of course that depends on the setting on the r-09. But I found that at the #6 level setting this product could easily handle 0db input.

I would suggest that using a preamp on the front end is not any more likely to increase distortion on bass or any other part of the frequency response, then using the built in preamp would. If the max input level is exceeded its exceeded and distortion will happen.

When you take into account that most mics ( my CA-11 or AT mics ) even at a very loud concert are going to be producing a level of -29 ( if they have my mod ) or are three wire ) or so and my preamp provides 20db of gain and most people actually only use 75% of the gain from my preamp or 15db. The signal the recorder would be seeing would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of
-15db That means the recorder only has to provide +10db or so of gain to provide a 5-6db of headroom in your recorder more then a safe amount.

BTW there is no speculation going on here. I have measured it and run it with out issues. Its not a frequency related problem its a gain related problem. IF you set the level to high on the r-09 you will have issues. With any preamp.. But if your careful you will not. 

Chris

[Belexes]

By the way, if you run straight into line in with no batt box, you will have no power to the mics at all.  That's not going to work.

I don't have mine in front of me, but if something does go wrong with the BB, the MIC IN to the R-09 has plug-in mic power.

[nameloc01]

WTF is a "high spl box" You have "three wire configuration mics",if you do not power them with a " three wire power supply" you are gonna cause them to clip AT MODERATE TO LOUD SPLS !! They WERE NOT meant to be ran like that-with a "two wire BB"! You probably just never got to that exact point of clipping in the past, the other night you did.
It is painfully simple. Again, if you think I am lying, listen to those samples which were FOB (as you say thay can't handle that) or FOS ( much,much louder)

If you run them the way they were designed to be ran, they are not going to clip at any concert, FOS or not. And the bass response will be fine. You have several people telling you good advise, you need to listen.