Topic: URGENT! Need suggestions on how to make things work better

[Babooshko]

Hi everyone,

I attended Diamanda Galas' concert in Rome last week. It was my first time taping... if you're even vaguely familiar with her music you might guess that's NOT an easy one to start with.

Well... I think I screwed up! Lots of clipping all through the recording, couldn't really keep track of the levels. Since I'm lucky enough to have one more Diamanda's concert coming up tomorrow, I would like to ask for a quick help in making it all work better.

My rig consists of:

Core Sound Cardioid mics (thanks Todd!)
SP Dual Channel Pre-Amp
iRiver-120 with Rock Box installed (settings follow the suggestions in TS guide);

http://www.megaupload.com/it/?d=YAX7NI78

Well... as you can hear, the gain setting was way too high (I suppose...). So here's the questions:

1) Considering that the upcoming gig will still be in a concert hall, how should I set it to be good? The Pre-Amp has also this little switch with 3 positions, 29db 50db and 0db: where should I keep it in? Should I change anything in Rock Box settings too?

2) Is there any chance I can work on this existing recording with any software to fix clipping or at least reduce it? Or is it a give-up?

I'm sorry to rush you guys, but I'd be so happy to get this next one properly taped!

Thanks in advance, Francesco

[morst]

I am not familiar with the iRiver, but it might help folks help you if you would let us know what settings you used for the first recording. Good luck getting this to work- my general suggestion would be to practice recording something loud that you don't care too much about, like a local bar band where you can go for free, (or a loud home stereo from close to the speakers). If you can do the bar band thing, bring headphones and record a short section, then walk out and check it in the headphones. Change settings and try again and again until it works. That way you will have a better chance of making the recording you DO care about.

[Brian Skalinder]

There are 4 possibilities for this kind of result:

<1>  the mics themselves are overloading
<2>  the preamp inputs are overloading
<3>  the iRiver analog inputs are overloading
<4>  the iRiver ADC is overloading

In this case, it's not <4>.  The levels peak at about -9 dBFS, so you're not clipping at 0 dBFS during ADC.  That leaves the others three options...

Were the batteries known-good and fresh?  <1> can happen if the mics aren't powered sufficiently, and that would be my first guess.  Sometimes even brand new batteries aren't up to snuff.

I wouldn't expect <2> to happen unless the mics are -really- sensitive, and I don't think they are.

It's possible that <3> is happening, and the preamp was providing too much gain for the iRiver inputs.  How did you have your levels set on the iRiver?  On the preamp?

My first guess is <1>, second guess is <3>, but...tough to say at this point.

[sunjan]

Well... I think I screwed up! Lots of clipping all through the recording, couldn't really keep track of the levels.

My rig consists of:
Core Sound Cardioid mics (thanks Todd!)
SP Dual Channel Pre-Amp
iRiver-120 with Rock Box installed (settings follow the suggestions in TS guide);

1) Considering that the upcoming gig will still be in a concert hall, how should I set it to be good? The Pre-Amp has also this little switch with 3 positions, 29db 50db and 0db: where should I keep it in? Should I change anything in Rock Box settings too?

Like Brian said: how much gain did you add in the iRiver? If you go above +24dB, it goes into the digital range, and your quality suffers.
Did you notice while you recorded if the peaks were clipping or not?
There are two very useful settings in Rockbox: clipping light (makes your screen light up when the levels clip), and of course Safety Clip (this would have saved your recording if your peaks clipped yesterday!)

You know that you can subtract gain in the iRiver too, although it rarely makes sense.

When it comes to calibrating the pre with the iRiver, I'd do a test:
Tape a bar band or support act:
1. Start with the external pre at 0dB, and the iRiver at maximal gain (+48dB). Activate Safety clip and see the invisible hand lover the iRiver gain until you're below clipping.
2. If the iRiver gain remains above +0dB after Safety Clip has done its magic, it means that the first setting on the external pre is not enough.
3. Move on to the next setting on the external pre (+29dB) and repeat. If the iRiver gain is still high, move on to the third setting on the pre...

Once you've found out the equilibrium, you can laborate with a mixture of external and internal gain. I don't know the quality of the SP pre, but I guess it should be cleaner than the iRiver gain, if handled correctly.

Good luck tonight!

/J

[travelinbeat]

Sometimes even brand new batteries aren't up to snuff.

I had been having problems with my 9Volts a few months back and here's my two sense: use the lithium "Ultralife" brand (available at Radio Shack).  They're pretty dang expensive, but I've never had one give weak results (standard 9V just don't seem reliable enough, in my experience).  You can typically pull a few solid shows out of one Ultralife 9V battery before you'll want to replace it.

1. Start with the external pre at 0dB, and the iRiver at maximal gain (+48dB). Activate Safety clip and see the invisible hand lover the iRiver gain until you're below clipping.

I've read somewhere on these pages that there's some funkiness that happens in the iRiver if you're adding more than 20dB (something about it's preamp turns crappy or something).  Sunjan has some great advice, but I might encourage you to try and avoid doing anything above +20dB on the iRiver (especially since this is why you've bought a preamp).

I'm with both these guys though, you're best bet is probably to head to local free / cheap shows and tape like crazy (invest in earplugs too!), nothing will teach you faster and better than plenty of good, healthy experience!

Good luck, and welcome to taping! 

[Babooshko]

Thank you so much, guys! I'll treasure these suggestions for the next time, since yesterday night's gig was far from home and I didn't have a chance to check the forum before leaving.

Both battery and iRiver gain issues make perfect sense, so I'll start from there. You all rock

One more question: what can I do to work on the recording as it turned out? The sample I posted was the "hottest", gain wise; after that I adjusted a bit the preamp level and it worked better, but still there are many segments where the recording sounds as if the mics were frying... is there anything I can do to fix it?

Thanks again! Grazie!

[morst]

. . . there are many segments where the recording sounds as if the mics were frying... is there anything I can do to fix it?

Owch! Probably not! Solid state (transistor) distortion is not pretty!   

[sunjan]

1. Start with the external pre at 0dB, and the iRiver at maximal gain (+48dB). Activate Safety clip and see the invisible hand lover the iRiver gain until you're below clipping.

I've read somewhere on these pages that there's some funkiness that happens in the iRiver if you're adding more than 20dB (something about it's preamp turns crappy or something).  Sunjan has some great advice, but I might encourage you to try and avoid doing anything above +20dB on the iRiver (especially since this is why you've bought a preamp).

Maybe I should clarify this. My procedure above is just used in a test environment, I'm not saying that you should add +48dB during a show that you're taping!
Travelinbeat is absolutely correct that iRiver shifts into digital gain in the upper half of the scale. You can compare it with a digital zoom in a digicam (basically magnifying the pixels, if you get it).

So the purpose of my test is just to find out in advance where the Safety Clip levels out, given the three fixed settings on the pre. Once you are familiar with those three settings, you can gauge which one to run, given the type of music and venue.