Topic: ? Audacity Q's ?'s -Mac based

[ArchivalAudio]

Hi
So after some  initial messing around in
Audacity 1.3.3
I am on Mac OSX 10.3.9
I have 2 questions

How
in a live recording

can I perform a cross fade between 2 tracks ( at a tape flip)


and
does anyone

know of any free (for OSX)
plugin for M-S decoding?

specifically  to make a "fake" stereo
from a dual mono track
or other stereo simulators?


I have experience with
Peak
Cubase
AudioDesk
and others

started to dabble with Audacity
since I can do wave form edits, which I can not do in AudioDesk

thanx


-- Ian

[Brian Skalinder]

With respect to Audacity plugins, I think you'll find most don't work well at all.  Last I used Audacity, it didn't support VST plugin's UI, and instead substituted is own UI.  So all the knobs / faders / buttons, etc. turned into a single type of slider, and all the values for the controls changed from the actual VST value and into a value between 0 and 1.  Using Voxengo's free MS plugin, MSED, for example...



...resulted in the following UI changes:

• Inline / Decode / Encode button turned into a slider with values from 0 to 1.  You'll have to map at what point between 0 and 1 the functionality changes from Inline to Decode to Encode.
• Mid Gain knob turned into a slider with values from 0 to 1.  You'll have to map how the interim values between 0 and 1 correspond to dB settings.
• Side Gain knob turned into a slider with values from 0 to 1.  You'll have to map how the interim values between 0 and 1 correspond to dB settings.

You have to do this type of mapping for every control on every VST plugin you want to use with Audacity.  PITA, and one of the reasons I no longer use Audacity.

As for cross-fading, the way I used to do it (there might be a better way, dunno, but not that I recall) was simply to employ a fade to each track independently:

• Set up Track A in the Track # 1 slot.
• Set up Track B in the Track #2 slot.
• Align the two tracks so the amount of time during which they overlap matches the length of the crossfade you'd like to employ.
• Fade-out Track A, starting the fade-out at the time when Track B starts to play and ending when Track A ends.
• Fade-in Track B, starting at Track B's beginning and ending when Track A ends.

Visually, it looks something like this:

[--------------TRACK A-------fade-out]
                             [fade-in--------------TRACK B--------------]

[ArchivalAudio]

Brian
thanx
for the reply

I think that  there is now a VST bridge
...
however
I am not sure it will work for me
the sweet MS plugin you mentioned is only windoz compatible

I noticed the label (track) points in audacity have movable handles, and this may help me to "crossfade" the tracks where I had a tape flip[

I am trying to master my JGB 1990-11-12  in which one channel is horrid
so I recorded the other 24/48 split mono
and since there are no circulating copies of this show
I figured it was time I get it mastered

I'll keep trying

-- Ian

[Brian Skalinder]

I think that  there is now a VST bridge
...
however
I am not sure it will work for me
the sweet MS plugin you mentioned is only windoz compatible

Ah, rats...I read the "Download Types" and thought it was listing the VST's actual availability.

I noticed the label (track) points in audacity have movable handles, and this may help me to "crossfade" the tracks where I had a tape flip

Cool, hope that works - sounds easier than my method.

[ArchivalAudio]

I looked at the types too...
thought it was also for OSX

I'm not sure the handles will work how I thought

also
any one know a good way to resample
or redither
an Audacuty file that's 24/96
to 16/44.1
when I did that it seems to time stretch and mess up the label (track) points

I tried to export but
it seemed that it was not compatible to make it 16/ 44.1

any ideas?

r8Brain is a windows only app too...?

[ArchivalAudio]

any ideas
on freeware for OSX
like r8brain
that converts 24/96- to 16/44.1
?

[willndmb]

I looked at the types too...
thought it was also for OSX

I'm not sure the handles will work how I thought

also
any one know a good way to resample
or redither
an Audacuty file that's 24/96
to 16/44.1
when I did that it seems to time stretch and mess up the label (track) points

I tried to export but
it seemed that it was not compatible to make it 16/ 44.1

any ideas?

r8Brain is a windows only app too...?

i don't know of an answer but i can confirm mine comes out a different time when i resample and dither too, usually like 4 secs different

[kirk97132]

any ideas
on freeware for OSX
like r8brain
that converts 24/96- to 16/44.1
?

not sure of features but I keep seeing Xact come up when macs are mentioned Ian. 
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/21952
Check it out maybe it'll help, Kirk

[SmokinJoe]

I use "ssrc" on linux for converting 24/96 to 16/44.
http://www.afterdawn.com/software/audio_software/audio_tools/ssrc.cfm

I downloaded the source and did a "./configure; make; make install", and it will probably build on Mac... or mac binaries may exist.

I believe ssrc does a very good job, and since this dithering/resampling is a lot of mathematical heavy lifting (done right) it stands to reason that it will be slow... I use all the high precision dither options, and for a typical 2 show set it will take 20 minutes to run on my 3 year old Pentium 4.  I just go get a cup of coffee while is running, and consider it a small price to pay for what I believe is the best quality conversion available.

I used audacity at first, but I got glitchy results at times.  I considered this a huge step up.

[willndmb]

any ideas
on freeware for OSX
like r8brain
that converts 24/96- to 16/44.1
?

not sure of features but I keep seeing Xact come up when macs are mentioned Ian. 
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/21952
Check it out maybe it'll help, Kirk

xact will not dither/resample
it will do things like decode/encode shn/flac, md5/ffp, sbe, rip

[kirk97132]

any ideas
on freeware for OSX
like r8brain
that converts 24/96- to 16/44.1
?

not sure of features but I keep seeing Xact come up when macs are mentioned Ian. 
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/21952
Check it out maybe it'll help, Kirk

xact will not dither/resample
it will do things like decode/encode shn/flac, md5/ffp, sbe, rip

Ah, thanx for info.

[ArchivalAudio]

hey
Will
Kirk
smokinjoe
and everyone
thanx
for the suggestions

I was at the Pickathon all weekend  it was Awesome!
best festival as always!

I try some searching of my own
and check out the
afterdawn stuff...

peace
-- Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

ok
so
my main issue
now
is
how to redither or convert
my
24/96 files
to 16/44.1

so I can up my RTF  at CD burining standards
I have trying to think of work arounds..
reimporting the tracked waves?
may be into my cubase le or audiodesk?

dunno

this is a bummer
since I thought it would be easy to export  (or redither) 24/96 to 16/44.1

any Mac suggestions?

thanx in advance

-- ian

[Krispy D]

It's not free but Sound Studio can handle all this and it is quite intuitive.  Much more 'mac like' in my opinion than audacity.  The free trial is full function so no risk...

[Brian Skalinder]

how to redither or convert

The Audacity workflow thread stickied to the top of the forum should explain how to do this.

[Will_S]

It's not free but Sound Studio can handle all this and it is quite intuitive.  Much more 'mac like' in my opinion than audacity.  The free trial is full function so no risk...

What he said.  Once you have Sound Studio installed you can also use Soundhack's +matrix plug in (it will show up in Filters > Audio Units once installed) to do M/S stuff.

edit to add link:  http://www.soundhack.com/freeware.php

[easy jim]

how to redither or convert

The Audacity workflow thread stickied to the top of the forum should explain how to do this.

Don't convert in Audacity if you can avoid it IMO.  The resample/dither sounds crappy to me and I tend to hear a lot more aliasing with Audacity vs. other software.

Why not just keep it simple and do this in AudioDesk via the soundbites window.  I know it takes a long time to resample in AudioDesk at the "best" quality setting, but it will do a far superior job than Audacity would.  

I cut all my tracks in AudioDesk/Digital Performer by creating markers where I want each track to begin. Then, you can snap the counter bar to the marker using the pointers along the left edge of the 'marker' window, highlight the final mix stereo track, and select 'split at counter' from the edit window (option y - keyboard shorthand).  

You can then rename the tracks in the 'soundbites' window after cutting them up by holding down the option key and clicking on a soundbite name you want to change (look at the final mix stereo bar to make sure you're renaming the correct soundbite(s)).  Once you've renamed your tracks/soundbites, highlight them all and open the 'soundbites' window's mini-menu and select 'Convert Sample Rate' and use the "best" option and select the "create new soundbites..." option at the bottom of the option window.  After starting the sample rate conversion, you can highlight/reselect all the soundbites and reopen the 'soundbites' window's mini-menu to select 'Convert Sample Format' and select the "replace soundbites..." option at the bottom of the option window when dithering from 24 to 16 bit.  

To watch progress during the conversions, go to the "Studio" menu across the top and select "Background Processing" which will open a window showing progress from the sample rate conversion and dither processes.

Feel free to PM me if you have addt'l questions or trouble figuring it out.
_________________________________________________________________________

Edit to add:

Addressing your original ?s w/ respect to AudioDesk:

How in a live recording can I perform a cross fade between 2 tracks (at a tape flip)

If you drag and/or nudge the wave forms of the 2 tracks together so that they are touching, or slightly overlapping, you may highlight them both and use the pointer tool to create a crossfade vs. a regular fade-in or fade-out which it will create if they are not touching/overlapping.  If you want a non-linear crossfade, you can refer to the AudioDesk manual for the ability to change the crossfade curve/ramps so they are non-linear or curvilinear to your preference.

does anyone know of any free (for OSX) plugin for M-S decoding? specifically to make a "fake" stereo from a dual mono track or other stereo simulators?

You can also do this in AudioDesk with a little effort.  The M-S decoding plug-in is pretty good, and all you need is a stereo file.  For a mono source file, you can make it stereo by bouncing or busing it to stereo and then you'll be able to process it to your liking using the M-S plug-in.
________________________________________________________________

Just curious Ian, do you have some special aversion to paragpraphs and prose, or do you just have a more creative sensibility that leads you to break up sentences and express yourself in a more poetic format?

[justink]

i was tracking a show tonight and i got the spinning beach ball of death...  i let it sit for an hour to see if it would catch up but no luck.

i ended up having to "force quit" then re-open.

the prompt stated that audacity saved the session, but i have to retrieve it manually...  how do i go about doing this?  i'd hate to have to start all over again...

thanks,

-j

[ArchivalAudio]

It's not free but Sound Studio can handle all this and it is quite intuitive.  Much more 'mac like' in my opinion than audacity.  The free trial is full function so no risk...

hey thanx
I'll check it out!

[ArchivalAudio]

how to redither or convert

The Audacity workflow thread stickied to the top of the forum should explain how to do this.

Brian
thanx
I'll read thru that
thanx as always for your help!
-- Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

how to redither or convert

The Audacity workflow thread stickied to the top of the forum should explain how to do this.

Don't convert in Audacity if you can avoid it IMO.  The resample/dither sounds crappy to me and I tend to hear a lot more aliasing with Audacity vs. other software.

Why not just keep it simple and do this in AudioDesk via the soundbites window.  I know it takes a long time to resample in AudioDesk at the "best" quality setting, but it will do a far superior job than Audacity would. 

I cut all my tracks in AudioDesk/Digital Performer by creating markers where I want each track to begin. Then, you can snap the counter bar to the marker using the pointers along the left edge of the 'marker' window, highlight the final mix stereo track, and select 'split at counter' from the edit window (option y - keyboard shorthand). 

You can then rename the tracks in the 'soundbites' window after cutting them up by holding down the option key and clicking on a soundbite name you want to change (look at the final mix stereo bar to make sure you're renaming the correct soundbite(s)).  Once you've renamed your tracks/soundbites, highlight them all and open the 'soundbites' window's mini-menu and select 'Convert Sample Rate' and use the "best" option and select the "create new soundbites..." option at the bottom of the option window.  After starting the sample rate conversion, you can highlight/reselect all the soundbites and reopen the 'soundbites' window's mini-menu to select 'Convert Sample Format' and select the "replace soundbites..." option at the bottom of the option window when dithering from 24 to 16 bit. 

To watch progress during the conversions, go to the "Studio" menu across the top and select "Background Processing" which will open a window showing progress from the sample rate conversion and dither processes.

Feel free to PM me if you have addt'l questions or trouble figuring it out.
_________________________________________________________________________

Edit to add:

Addressing your original ?s w/ respect to AudioDesk:

How in a live recording can I perform a cross fade between 2 tracks (at a tape flip)

If you drag and/or nudge the wave forms of the 2 tracks together so that they are touching, or slightly overlapping, you may highlight them both and use the pointer tool to create a crossfade vs. a regular fade-in or fade-out which it will create if they are not touching/overlapping.  If you want a non-linear crossfade, you can refer to the AudioDesk manual for the ability to change the crossfade curve/ramps so they are non-linear or curvilinear to your preference.

does anyone know of any free (for OSX) plugin for M-S decoding? specifically to make a "fake" stereo from a dual mono track or other stereo simulators?

You can also do this in AudioDesk with a little effort.  The M-S decoding plug-in is pretty good, and all you need is a stereo file.  For a mono source file, you can make it stereo by bouncing or busing it to stereo and then you'll be able to process it to your liking using the M-S plug-in.
________________________________________________________________

Just curious Ian, do you have some special aversion to paragpraphs and prose, or do you just have a more creative sensibility that leads you to break up sentences and express yourself in a more poetic format?

EasyJim
yes
I think in poetry
or stream of consciousness 
maybe its my ADD
or OCD
sorry about my not using full snetences
its how I think and write... I am more of a renaissance man and artist much more right brain then left

again
I apologize

Jim you have great ideas
especially in regards to Audio desk
I like it its just weird that it uses SDII files and not wav or AIFF
also its not a wave form editor
which is why I originally tried audacity
after having some complications with Peak

I like AudioDesk
but have found I need to export to wav  (more duplicate files) to then convert it to FLAC
since I don't think I can convert SDII to FLAC

these questions are part of a bigger picture:
a 3 part picture

first
I have started using my Fostex FR2-LE which records in a (stereo) BWF (or Broadcast Wave Format) which is essentially interlaced stereo (not 2 separate mono tracks)

I have a mono recording of Jerry Garcia Band 11/12/90  (12 row FOB master) since one of my mic connections was very bad,  its mono - over at LosslessLegs there is no known source for this- the MS question
upon consultation at MOTB I was told to use a Y splitter and record mono- perhaps a M-S decoder won't help the sound?

I have an great FOB (5th row center on stand) of Tuck n Patti form the fall of last year where there was a guy was clapping out of time, for apert of one song and I needed to manually remove the claps fromt he left channel - not able to do this in audio desk , since it has no waveform editing capibilities.

and now I have a Return To Forever master  (FOB ~20' from stage-Neumann KM140's> Fostex FR2-LE @ 24/96) which I opened the BWF files in audacity, then tracked and exported as wav - then FLAC'd to Torrent at LL
I want to make a 16/44.1 of the already tracked wav files or the audacity files... to up a redy to Burn to CD file set.

I can try audiodesk but it converts them to SDII files, I think? doesn't it?
then I have to export as wave

mostly I am trying to avoid having to re-track  any of these projects - RTF 224/96, would be easier to re-dither rater than retrack


any how
easyjim
you also have always been very helpful
so
thank you

-- Ian

[easy jim]

EasyJim
yes
I think in poetry
or stream of consciousness 
maybe its my ADD
or OCD
sorry about my not using full snetences
its how I think and write... I am more of a renaissance man and artist much more right brain then left

again
I apologize

Jim you have great ideas
especially in regards to Audio desk
I like it its just weird that it uses SDII files and not wav or AIFF
also its not a wave form editor
which is why I originally tried audacity
after having some complications with Peak

I like AudioDesk
but have found I need to export to wav  (more duplicate files) to then convert it to FLAC
since I don't think I can convert SDII to FLAC

these questions are part of a bigger picture:
a 3 part picture

first
I have started using my Fostex FR2-LE which records in a (stereo) BWF (or Broadcast Wave Format) which is essentially interlaced stereo (not 2 separate mono tracks)

I have a mono recording of Jerry Garcia Band 11/12/90  (12 row FOB master) since one of my mic connections was very bad,  its mono - over at LosslessLegs there is no known source for this- the MS question
upon consultation at MOTB I was told to use a Y splitter and record mono- perhaps a M-S decoder won't help the sound?

I have an great FOB (5th row center on stand) of Tuck n Patti form the fall of last year where there was a guy was clapping out of time, for apert of one song and I needed to manually remove the claps fromt he left channel - not able to do this in audio desk , since it has no waveform editing capibilities.

and now I have a Return To Forever master  (FOB ~20' from stage-Neumann KM140's> Fostex FR2-LE @ 24/96) which I opened the BWF files in audacity, then tracked and exported as wav - then FLAC'd to Torrent at LL
I want to make a 16/44.1 of the already tracked wav files or the audacity files... to up a redy to Burn to CD file set.

I can try audiodesk but it converts them to SDII files, I think? doesn't it?
then I have to export as wave

mostly I am trying to avoid having to re-track  any of these projects - RTF 224/96, would be easier to re-dither rater than retrack


any how
easyjim
you also have always been very helpful
so
thank you

-- Ian

No worries Ian 

I agree that it's kinda weird working in AudioDesk/Digital Performer since they use SDII as the native audio file format.  It just adds an extra conversion step, though, when importing/exporting to .wav/.bwf/.aiff  When I complete an editing project, I burn a data DVD set of the "project files" with the SDII files as well as exporting the final mix files as .aiff and converting to .flac  It's defintely cumbersome, but it satisfies my OCD need to have multiple back-ups of the data in different forms in case one or another becomes corrupted.

RE the '90 JGB show for which you have the good mono source, I'd personally capture it as a direct transfer in AudioDesk (whether from a cassette or DAT master?) with your UltraLite.  I'd just do it as a mono track.  If from a digital source, make sure to select the s/pdif digital input as the 'clock source' instead of 'internal clock' in the hardware settings to get a transfer without resampling. Once 'recorded' in AudioDesk as a mono track, you can then create a parallel mono track if you want by copying and pasting the wave form from the recorded to the empty track in the 'Sequence' window.  You can then pan the two tracks with the 'mixing board' window, try nudging one slightly along the time ruler to create an artificial 'delay' between tracks, create a plug-in chain on a master fader track using the M-S plug-in, and/or others, to be able to listen as you're playing with the settings.

For what it's worth, the couple times I've worked with mono sources, I ended up just leaving it mono and did not like any of the attempts I made to create an artificial stereo image.

Regarding the Tuck & Patti master, you may just need to use a waveform editor and/or some type of special software like iZotope RX or SoundSoap, etc. to try and remove the claps.  If they're not too bad, and just focused on one side/channel, I have had reasonable success 'fixing' random claps like this in AudioDesk by highlighting the exact/brief moment of the clap from the opposite channel and copying/pasting over the same area in the offending channel and applying crossfades.  It's a bit of 'surgery'/'grafting' on the wave forms, but I've made it work sufficiently for me to be happy with it.

With the RTF recording, you kind of have to retrack it IMO to properly resample/dither.  The few times I have tried to import already split 24 bit tracks into Audacity to do a quick-and-dirty resample/dither, the 16/44.1 output always seemed to be messed up somehow and the tracks wouldn't be continuous anymore and have gaps at one end or the other (even after fixing for SBEs with xACT when converting the 16/44.1 output .wav files to .flac).  After frustrating myself with that a few times, I now always do the track cutting in Digital Performer (AudioDesk is the same for this) as I explained in my previous post, so I am able to split the tracks once and resample/dither and create the 16/44.1 version of the same before exporting both sets of files to a .flac16 and .flac24 folder for each file set before converting them to .flac files.  If I'm just working with an ambient stereo file, I create a master fader track when listening and setting track markers and use the 'Trim' plug-in to raise the gain and 'peak normalize' the track to -0.2 dBFS when bouncing a final 'mix'/stereo track to split and export.

[ArchivalAudio]

easyjim
thanx for the concise
descriptions
I'm off for some R&R
and shows
till after Labor Day

when I can actually try this stuff out!
-- Ian