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Offline Nick's Picks

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DAC shootout...and then some...
« on: January 02, 2004, 11:17:59 AM »
A rriend and I did some listening at his house (and beyond last night) and I thought I'd share what we did.

I brought over my preamp (as he is w/o at the moment) and my DAC to put into his system and listen for a while.
As I said, he is sans preamp right now...awaiting an Audible Illusions tube pre. I brought my Y-S Audio Symphonies tube pre for the purpose really of being able to quickly A/B our two dacs.

His: the Benchmark DAC-1
I'm sure we are all familiar w/this model. Retails around $850 i belive. Great features. Its variable gain output (defeatable) allows you to not use a preamp (as long as you stay in the digital domain, obviously...). All sorts of digi input, so that is nice. Great headphone amp as well w/two jacks.

Mine: ART/DIO
the cheap ass $130 DAC that has been modified (heavily) by Boulder Cable. It is at what they call the smART upgrade ($250). there is another one beyond this that is supposed to be a significant upgrade as well that will run another $250. the "mensa", but we all know about this all ready.
Not much for features on ths black box. digi in via coax only. Output on RCAs after the mods.

We used his Parasound transport as our source and ran dig outs from that into both DACs and then analog out into the preamp.

We chose the new Steve Winwood "about time" CD as our primary refference disc as it is WONDERFULLY recorded. Plus, various bootlegs of our favorite bands, recent recordings we've done..etc.

Our thoughts?
Overall, the benchmark sounded better. Cleaner. It was strange though...it depended greatly on the material. On some things, the benchmark sounded louder, heavier. Better decay of cymbals and things like that. Just more realistic.  With others, we couldn't notice a difference at all between the two. Sometimes the changes were obvious.  Other times you really had to concentrate to notice what was different and it was equaly difficult to articulate what that difference was.

Our overall thoughts was that the benchmark sounded best when the preamp was not in the loop, but we couldn't A/B that w/o taking the time to unplug and rewire...something that completely renders the test useless as I beleive you can't really "hear" a difference accurately unless its an instant A/B comparrison. I dont trust my memory.

BTW, the Benchmark claim to defeat jitter and "transport doesnt' matter" is complete horse-shit, IMO. there was definatly a difference between digi out of the Philips 963 player we had on standbye and the parasound. the Philips sounded aggressive and edgy to us.  We couldn't sit back and listen ...like there was tension in the air or something.

I've got all the gear at my house now to listen through my system. I'll post my thoughts as a follow up, should they be any different. Our speakers are vastly different (my electrostats vs. his monitors/SUB), so it should be interesting.

We closed the evening at Tweeter, where we completely took charge of their "A" listening room. There, we played with Martin Logan Ascenti speakers and Sonus Faber "grand piano" floor standing towers.
We both loved the SF's over the logans..but the comparrison was not quite on the level as each set of speakers were driven with different B&K componants.. The SF side had the super sweet Sony es999 or whatever their flagship is. the ML side was a multi-channel system that we didn't trust. Plus, they had the speakers set up so poorly....and they call themselves proffestionals! Jeeze. Any way, my friend Carl left wondering where is Taylor boxes were should he "need" to have those SFs in his house.
I left wondering if my tastes are changing away from ML's.
I tell ya what...we had those SF's set up in 3 seconds and they sounded fantastic. It took 30 minutes to get the Logans in a decent location..and they sounded bright and almost painful.
Personaly, I blame the componants. That's what I keep telling myself any way.

We both wondered how the MENSA would compare to the Benchmark...which in our opinions, is *the* DAC for the money thus far.

Offline JackoRoses

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2005, 05:59:38 PM »
Nick, have you done any more tests?
do you think getting the mensa and having the upgrade
is better bang for the buck then buying the benchmark?
I guess I am looking for a new DAC right now..
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/jackoroses
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Offline Tim

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2005, 06:27:45 PM »
*cough* Bel Canto DAC 2 *cough*

;)
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline JackoRoses

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2005, 06:57:10 PM »
*cough* Bel Canto DAC 2 *cough*

;)
Have you ever heard a cal labs sigma II yet?
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/jackoroses
AKG ck61's/ck62's/ck63's/480b's > zaolla's/Dogstar silver cables > optimod V3  > zaolla spdif> HD-P2
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Offline Tim

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2005, 07:01:54 PM »
nope. I've only listened to the benchmark and the bel canto...
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline macdaddy

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2005, 09:04:36 PM »
the mensa is pretty solid, esp. considering what i paid for it :D

take care of the jitter and clocking with a DIP, and i could be in some serious business. (the upsampler is breaking in nicely, but i have since found a 24/96 used, that at least theoretically, seems to be what i am looking for...

good bang for the buck.

i am going to be in colo this summer, and if i drive out there, and i likely will, i will bring my mensa with me to have wayne do a few things to it. i should throw the DIP in the truck, too, and we can do a shootout at your pad, tim. a few months away, but i will be there, and i never get the chance to do this kind of thing, and you did just bump a year-old thread :P
-macdaddy ++

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Offline BC

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2005, 09:08:19 PM »
Hi Nick,
Thanks for the interesting read! Just wanted to remind people how important it is to match levels when comparing components (John Atkinson, editor of Stereophile, matches levels to 0.1 dB at 1KHz when performing comparisons such as this), as small differences in level can easily influence perceived sound quality. 


Overall, the benchmark sounded better. Cleaner. It was strange though...it depended greatly on the material. On some things, the benchmark sounded louder, heavier. Better decay of cymbals and things like that. Just more realistic.  With others, we couldn't notice a difference at all between the two. Sometimes the changes were obvious.  Other times you really had to concentrate to notice what was different and it was equaly difficult to articulate what that difference was.

I am curious if this difference was correlated to the quality of the recording being listened to? My initial thought is that perhaps on well recorded and high quality source material perhaps the Benchmark's superior performance is more easily audible due to the higher fidelity of the original source. If the source material is not as good (say some show taped in a boomy venue with a not-so-hot mix) the difference between the two converters would be less audible since the original source material is not of high enough quality to make the difference between the two stand out. For example, to consider just one aspect of DAC performance, let's consider the noise floor. Measurements of the Benchmark can be seen at:

http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/886/index4.html

where you can see that the Benchmark's noise floor is very low (dominated by dither). I would think that the effect of the Benchmark's low noise would be more perceptible for well mastered studio material recorded in a quiet environment , expecially as opposed to something recorded at a live show where the ambient noise floor is very high (people talking, AC fans, glasses clinking, etc...). Anyway, just thinking out loud here...

Take care!
Ben

PS: damn, I just saw the date on this thread, didn't know it was so old!  (Guess I just didn't notice it until now)   :P
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Offline JackoRoses

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2005, 09:15:05 PM »
for some reason I thought it was from this past january...
I was just reading through playback for 24/96 DAC's and saw this...
Has anyone tried the msbtech dac's out?
I am reading to see whats available, don't want to pay 800+ for a bel canto yet..
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/jackoroses
AKG ck61's/ck62's/ck63's/480b's > zaolla's/Dogstar silver cables > optimod V3  > zaolla spdif> HD-P2
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. "
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Big Brother is here and he is watching you.

Offline Tim

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2005, 09:21:57 PM »
don't want to pay 800+ for a bel canto yet..

understandable!
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline twoodruff

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2005, 09:23:59 PM »
for some reason I thought it was from this past january...
I was just reading through playback for 24/96 DAC's and saw this...
Has anyone tried the msbtech dac's out?
I am reading to see whats available, don't want to pay 800+ for a bel canto yet..

i know someone unloading a lucid da9624, pm me if interested
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Offline macdaddy

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2005, 09:31:20 PM »
i bought the mensa used for $400. i think if i need to get stuff done to it by wayne, i would guess it might run another $250 @ most. now, if you consider that a DIP is part of the DAC, then that counts, too.

as for noise floor - there are alot of other ways to do this. when i bought the furutech powerstrip, that lowered the noise floor almost completely (no apparent noise at full volume coming through the speakers). after adding the upsampler, the noise shot up again. but i rec'd a type 1 cable and a type 2 cable today, and plugged them both in (DIP and JoLida), and the noise floor went down again :D There are also purifiers (bybee, etc) that lower noise floor - i am considering getting the bnc one for my mensa - that lower the noise floor...

so by combining the mensa, the DIP, solid power (still have yet to get the conditioner - that's next), the purifiers and solid cabling, i would be interested to hear how my DAC setup  stacks up. it probably will run $1 large when it is all said and done, but isnt that what the belcanto 2 costs..?

-macdaddy ++

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Offline Tim

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2005, 09:32:31 PM »
the belcanto is like $1200 new but go for $800-850 used...

Definitely keep me up on the Colorado trip, I'd love to hang out!
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline JackoRoses

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2005, 06:35:03 AM »
for some reason I thought it was from this past january...
I was just reading through playback for 24/96 DAC's and saw this...
Has anyone tried the msbtech dac's out?
I am reading to see whats available, don't want to pay 800+ for a bel canto yet..

i know someone unloading a lucid da9624, pm me if interested
Thanks for the kind offer, I don't have a amp that takes 1/4" though or XLR.
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/jackoroses
AKG ck61's/ck62's/ck63's/480b's > zaolla's/Dogstar silver cables > optimod V3  > zaolla spdif> HD-P2
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Big Brother is here and he is watching you.

Offline ducati

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2005, 08:21:11 AM »
Many people use 1/4 to RCA when using pro stuff in the home.

As for DAC's...  I've had the ack dAck! 2.0 at home now for a week...  It's promising, definitely worth consideration.  I haven't formulated final thoughts on it yet, but I will say it's promising with some reservations (any DAC I've heard since my now-departed dCS gear has "some reservations")  ;D

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2005, 08:24:57 AM »
Hi all.....

still a fan of the benchmark...
but i've been curious to hear the Ack DAC, the scott nixon tube DAC and the new Musical Fidelity line (DAC and seperate tube output stage).

what I have definately learned ....
you can get a modest DAC, run something like the big ben or DIP in front of it, and get much of the performance of a very expensive DAC.
The Sony DACs in their digital recievers, which as we know convert PCM to DSD, a trait only found in other dacs that cost better than $10k, is pretty impressive as well.

I'm definately a big fan of these variable gain type DACs, like the benchmark and the Grace 90x series.  I think i'll be giving the 902 a run as my next system comes together (someday).

as for material...yes, it matters.  The better the material, the more apparent the differences will be between one DAC and another.  That is a bonafide fact.

Offline ducati

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2005, 08:34:47 AM »
The only digital rig I know that does PCM > DSD is the dCS Verdi La Scala (or Verdi/Purcell)--dCS' upsampler/transport combo.  Their DACs decode DSD, but don't upsample to DSD.

A very good article on upsampling, what it is, and why the dCS system sounds so good can be found here:
http://www.iar-80.com/page21.html

Are there others that upsample?

I'll have some fleshed-out thoughts about the ack in the next few weeks...

Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2005, 09:32:03 AM »
Have you ever heard a cal labs sigma II yet?

That's a great box.  I actually have one for sale if anyone is interested and I'd make a better price than what I'm putting on agon.

The reason I'm selling mine is that it is a stock 16/48 version and with my new rig I need 24/96.  There were some upgraded ones that would handle 24/96, but if you like CAL enough to spend that kind of money, an upgraded alpha is probably the better choice. 
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Offline JackoRoses

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2005, 10:06:44 AM »
Have you ever heard a cal labs sigma II yet?

That's a great box.  I actually have one for sale if anyone is interested and I'd make a better price than what I'm putting on agon.

The reason I'm selling mine is that it is a stock 16/48 version and with my new rig I need 24/96.  There were some upgraded ones that would handle 24/96, but if you like CAL enough to spend that kind of money, an upgraded alpha is probably the better choice. 
I would be interested in the 24/96 cal sigma II tube which I am currently keeping an eye on.
I am thinking about just getting a quality RCA cable long enough to go from the Delta Dio to the amp
for the time and just keep an eye on the market. I guess I like that california sound..(Not that I have heard a cal audio product yet.) I was kind of sad looking at my Adcom she has been awesome and will now become a bedroom DAC I think.
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/jackoroses
AKG ck61's/ck62's/ck63's/480b's > zaolla's/Dogstar silver cables > optimod V3  > zaolla spdif> HD-P2
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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2005, 10:48:42 AM »
I would be interested in the 24/96 cal sigma II tube which I am currently keeping an eye on.

I think that you will like it a lot.  You'll have to post a review.
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2005, 12:11:35 PM »
I'm definately a big fan of these variable gain type DACs, like the benchmark and the Grace 90x series.  I think i'll be giving the 902 a run as my next system comes together (someday).

Have you ever done a direct, true, A-B comparison with the benchmark and either the Grace 901 or 902?

Offline JackoRoses

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2005, 12:19:48 PM »
Does anyone know of anyone doing california audio labs upgrades still?
Cal audio is defunct so obviously they won't be able to do the upgrade.
Or does anyone know exactly what is upgraded?
I would be willing to do it myself if I have part numbers and know what is done.
As long as no soldering to the board is required ;)
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/jackoroses
AKG ck61's/ck62's/ck63's/480b's > zaolla's/Dogstar silver cables > optimod V3  > zaolla spdif> HD-P2
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2005, 03:52:41 PM »
I'm definately a big fan of these variable gain type DACs, like the benchmark and the Grace 90x series.  I think i'll be giving the 902 a run as my next system comes together (someday).

Have you ever done a direct, true, A-B comparison with the benchmark and either the Grace 901 or 902?


nope.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2005, 03:58:24 PM »
The only digital rig I know that does PCM > DSD is the dCS Verdi La Scala (or Verdi/Purcell)--dCS' upsampler/transport combo.  Their DACs decode DSD, but don't upsample to DSD.

A very good article on upsampling, what it is, and why the dCS system sounds so good can be found here:
http://www.iar-80.com/page21.html

Are there others that upsample?

I'll have some fleshed-out thoughts about the ack in the next few weeks...

EMM labs
Sony STR-DA2000es Digital reciever
same for the 3000/5000/9000
the Sony fully integrated + 5 disc SACD carosel player also converts analog and PCM to DSD before the final D/A converstion.

Offline ducati

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Re: DAC shootout...and then some...
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2005, 08:34:33 PM »
I meant outside the Sonys...

I have no experience with the Meitner gear, although I'd love to hear it.  Neat concept.

 

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