Topic: Help me help myself!

[stevetoney]

As a musician, you'll understand how the internal mics on a $400 recorder are likely to be afterthoughts in terms of the quality of the gear installed by the manufacturer.  Think el cheapo microphones being used to record college classroom recordings of a professors lecture or a journalists interview...but DEF not music fidelity.

So, the recorder should be for recording and, well, a reasonable pair of mics for sound fidelity.

As far as recorders, there have been many worthy suggestions made already in this thread.  Personally, I'd stay away from the pocket units simply because, as a traveling band, I'd think the chances are high that it would find its way into someone else's pocket.  At $400 or so used, the FR2LE would be perfect...so would the PMD-661.  

Since you're just starting, I'd go ahead and make sure to start with a 24-bit recorder.  Why not?  Prices are nearly the same now as the older 16-bit recorders, although they'd work just fine if you decided on...say...and used PMD-660 which is a FINE recorder too.

For mics, I suggest going onto www.archive.org and searching for and listening to show samples that use the microphones in your price range to determine those that meet your expectations for sound quality...here are some mics that I know of that fall in the $200 to $400 range for a pair...I think there are LOTS of others that I'm not recalling at the moment.

Audio Technica AT-853 (aka SP-CMC-4)
Octava MC-012
AKG-460 series (non-modded)
AKG-390 series
AKG-c1000
Studio Project C4
Avantone C-1
Church Audio CA-14
Church Audio CA-11
Nakamichi CM-300

I'd also note that most of these mics are currently available used in our yard sale. 

I'd HIGHLY recommend buying used because for a $1k budget, you'll significantly increase the quality of your gear that way.  This amount is a sort of break point...above $1k you can start to expect better sounding recordings.  Below $1k, you have to work a little harder to have sound expectations met...but it's still VERY possible with the gear people are recommending.  Point is that $1k goes alot farther buying used that it does buying new.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Will_S]

To follow up on the good points Steve (tonedeaf) made...

If you're considering used, don't forget the Edirol R4.  I think there are still one or two in the Yard Sale for <$600?  This could be really handy for band use since it has a built in hard drive, so you can record several shows in a row rather than having to copy them off a flash card you recycle each night.  And having the option to mix in a board feed with your room mics will really help in lesser-sounding rooms.

Good list of mics above.  In that price range you could also consider the Audix M1280/M1290s (used), the Busman Audio mics, and Studio Projects LSD2.  Maybe some of the Rode mics (eg NT5) are worth considering as well, although opinions here are pretty split on them.  I've heard some Rode tapes I really liked, but not many.

[im hungover]

Studio Projects C4s are very nice sounding for around $200 ive pulled some smokin tapes with them!

[Brian Skalinder]

Just chiming in to echo the recommendations for a 4-ch recorder to capture SBD + mics, even if it means you have to start off with really inexpensive mics.

[stevetoney]

If I may elaborate a little bit for the sake of explanation. 

Alot of people on this list are experts at recording a bands' music.  Many of us are passionate about getting the best sounding recordings possible and some have well over ten grand invested to prove it!  Most bands nowadays are happy enough to allow us to record them, but really can't be bothered before the show setting up for SBD access...either because they don't want anyone futznig around the SBD or they don't have the time to mix for the SBD output channels.  However, given a choice, I think the larger majority of people on this board would pounce on the opportunity to get a SBD matrix if bands provided that option.

Since you ARE the band, getting permission is not an issue.  So, many people are recommending the relatively inexpensive 4-channel R-44 (new they go for around $800 but since it's one of the most popular items on this list, not many used R-44's are seen in the yard sale) and there are one or two use R-4's out there for less.  (The R-4 came out a few years before the R-44...the R-4 being also 4-channels but larger.)

I definitely agree that you should give this VERY strong consideration...and as Brian suggested above, even a SBD matrix mixed with a relatively inexpensive pair of mics (to give the recording air and ambience, since unmatrixed virgin SBDs can be very sterile sounding) would be KILLER...and orders of magnitude better in sound quality than what you'd get with an inexpensive mic pair only. 

So, for $1K I'd definitely go with an R-44 for $800 and a $200 pair of mics and run a 4-channel matrix.  You'll get killer recordings with that setup.

Hope this explains a little more why so many people are recommending going this route.

[sunjan]

If you must stick w/two channels for budget, you can still do some AUD/SBD with an edirol UA5.  tons of them in the yard sale.  nice sounding little box.  it acts as a mixer too, so you can pump RCA inputs in as well as XLRs, though you can't mix the delay needed, nor can you separate the channels.

as for mics...
if you want really cheap and wicked quality for the investment, the AT 853u is pretty awesome.  sound pro's has them on sale for $150 a pair.
An edirol R9 behind these, good to go.  $500 total.

Agree with this, except that I'd put a digital recorder behind the UA-5. Microtrack does 24bit and can be had for $200.

But really, all this skimping is sad, considering that you're in the band and have full access to the board. 
Since you have no size restrictions and can even run the gear on AC, you shouldn't be fiddling with these small boxes.

The cheapest R4 I could find at the moment is $700: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300296931814
If this unit is still around you could try haggling it down: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,109668.0.html

That gives you $300-something for mics and stand.

[BristolMookie]

If you want to bring a Marantz for me to play with that's fine with me. I always wanted a go with one.

And I guess it'll be desk mix plus a couple of ambients using the new matched pair of condensers that'll be arriving on monday. I'm not saying what they are but I like them, and you've given me an excuse.

J

[Krispy D]

don't forget about the Peluso CEMC6 pair.  for under $600 they are some of the best sounding mics on the market.  Add some subcard caps and they are perfect for 1000 seat theater shows!

[Nick's Picks]

Good piont (above w/the Peluso rec w/the sub card caps, that would kick ass w/the SBD mixed in)

[612]

Hey Jason, way off topic but maybe Minneapolis is in the cards this summer. I'd tape.

See also... http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,118709.0.html

[bugg100]

Just chiming in to echo the recommendations for a 4-ch recorder to capture SBD + mics, even if it means you have to start off with really inexpensive mics.

My vote would be for this setup and a stage pair using the house snake....

[popskull]

I would recommend a 4 channel recorder like the Edirol R4 or R44 as well

2 mics onstage to get the instruments + sdb feed = quick and easy sdb/aud 4 channel to mix the next day on the tour bus

It has a big enough hd to do a couple shows before filling up

My recommendation would be the Edirol R-44 and a stereo mic such as the Studio Projects LSD2 or Busman BSCS-M or BSCS-L.  Record 2-ch soundboard and 2-ch stereo mic.

If that's way out of your budget, maybe the Sony PCM-D50?  I've heard a few small club recordings done with the internal mics that sounded decent.