Topic: Buying a Turntable; what would you recommend?

[Benny]

Looking at some vintage Dual's for sale in my area including the 1225 and 1257 for $100 or less.  Also looking at spending a tad more and getting a Technics 1200 or a Project Debut III; http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-Debut-III-Turntable-Multicolor?sc=2&category=46

I'd prefer to get a worry-free unit that will sound good and not need to be upgraded for at least a couple of years.  Any thoughts?  Things to look for when buying a used table?

Thanks!!

[nickgregory]

buying a vintage unit and having it be worry free is a bit unrealistic.  Unless you get a mint unit or one that has recently been serviced (which will probably cost a bit more) the vintage tables will need some service.  My Thorens has had some minor cabling and suspension issues....irritating, but when you consider the table is 30+ years old it makes sense.

As for worry free and sounds good, the rega P1 is above your price target but nothing in that price range touches it.

[Benny]

good poing nick. i found a project debut III in near new condition for $150. they seem to have pretty good reviews online. anyone heard one of these?

[Tim]

I think worry free would mean either the pro-ject or the technics

the pro-ject is belt driven, the technics is direct drive

so now you've just added another layer of debate and research onto your decision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt-drive_turntable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-drive_turntable

Benny, check your email

[cheshirecat]

I had a Dual 1218 that was pretty rad, my brother has it now and it still sounds great.  I made some minor mods to replace the power cable and replaced the cable with some RCAs so I could run my own.

[mfrench]

I'm not a fan of belt drive any longer.
No speed control ability, and can easily be off speed.

Direct Drive is nice, if the servo-controls are still in good shape. My old Technics was finally retired when the servos no longer allowed for the speed controlling, and I went pretty far off pace.

Idler Drives are the shit - but more effort to get restored, and more than your budget consideration allows.
The pacing is flat out amazing with an idler and heavy platter. And the speeds are infinitely adjustable between the ranges. This is more critical to early recordings before standards had been established and become common industry practice.
Direct Drives have more direct torque and can compensate better than belt drives, when it comes to needle drag.

[Benny]

I think worry free would mean either the pro-ject or the technics

the pro-ject is belt driven, the technics is direct drive
 
so now you've just added another layer of debate and research onto your decision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt-drive_turntable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-drive_turntable

Benny, check your email

   so with the belt drive, how long can you expect to get out of your belt under normal wear and tear?  and with the direct drive, does the motor cause vibrations or is that not an issue with decent quality tables?

thanks for the email tim, i appreciate the help!!

[unclelouie]

  so with the belt drive, how long can you expect to get out of your belt under normal wear and tear?  and with the direct drive, does the motor cause vibrations or is that not an issue with decent quality tables?

Somebody just gave me a Philips GA-427 that needed a new belt. 9 bucks and 20 minutes later the damn thing sounds great. Try seeing what you can get for free before going out and buying one...you never know what will come along.

A belt wears out when it stretches so much that it can no longer create enough friction to turn the platter. Since belts stretch slowly, you'll notice that the pitch changes over time. Once it's noticeable, change the belt. If you don't change it when you notice the pitch change, it'll eventually start slipping, and eventually the platter won't turn.

[jim1274]

I have a Systemdek IIx table from back in the 80's that was considered the budget high-end turntable at the time from my recollection.  Went with a buddy to a bunch of botique audio joints in Chicago area, listened to many systems, and the Systemdek was the best thing we heard in the affordable category.  (We bought Superphon amps and preamps plus some Dynaudio 15" 4-way "kits" to round out our rigs--got a few extra bucks off walking out with 2 full almost identical systems)   Did some research a while back, and the Systemdek is still pretty highly regarded in some circles.  Mine is still in storage--could not bring myself to sell it since the LP collection is still stored and thought someday I'd pull out the MFSL's and see how it sounds 25 years later.  Yeah, right....   Anyway, this is a fine turntable and saw one on ebay (not mine) if still looking:

http://cgi.ebay.com/SystemDek-IIX-Turntable-with-Glass-Platter_W0QQitemZ290378768817QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item439bec61b1

[Chilly Brioschi]

belt drives can have speed control, either mechanically or electronically, and almost all that I've seen do

My rec?
Skip the Turntable and buy a better DAC, feed it from a hard drive-based media server, and look forward. It is almost 2010, and Edison invented the record in  1877!
 

Well.... you did ask...

[jim1274]

belt drives can have speed control, either mechanically or electronically, and almost all that I've seen do

My rec?
Skip the Turntable and buy a better DAC, feed it from a hard drive-based media server, and look forward. It is almost 2010, and Edison invented the record in  1877!
 

Well.... you did ask...

I agree COMPLETELY!  In fact, after posting my reply and  then looking at my Systemdek table just sitting in its box for most of its life, I ran a for sale ad on AudioAsylum (recc'd as good place to sell by another TS member).

That being said, it seems vinyl has made a comeback of sorts, and some people are still really into it.  Not me and you......

[Thom Joad]

Hoping to piggyback on this thread.  I was asked for advice on a new turntable for my brother-in-law's Christmas present.  Having never really been into vinyl myself I'm not sure what to recommend. 

He doesn't have too critical of an ear, but he does love music and listens to vinyl regularly.  His current player is an Optimus LAB-1100. 

She was recommended a Rega P1 but I'm not sure if it's needed since he currently has an old Kenwood receiver and some old Pioneer speakers.  However, getting a new player may push him to upgrade the rest of the system, but not for a while.  Would it be silly to listen to a P1 through his current system, especially if he doesn't have "Golden Ears?"  Are there other models that I could tell her to look into?

[mfrench]

does he have any desire for automatic function?
The Rega is a manual deck, meaning no tonearm pick up at end of play, or beginning either. To some, thats desirable, to others its something to avoid.
Not having any sort of lift-off does sort of force you to commit to the listening experience.
Denon still makes a nice fully automatic table, if that is something he wants. It will come in around the same price as the rega p1

denon automatic: http://www.musicdirect.com/product/80563

[mfrench]

belt drives can have speed control, either mechanically or electronically, and almost all that I've seen do

My rec?
Skip the Turntable and buy a better DAC, feed it from a hard drive-based media server, and look forward. It is almost 2010, and Edison invented the record in  1877!
 

Well.... you did ask...

I agree COMPLETELY!  In fact, after posting my reply and  then looking at my Systemdek table just sitting in its box for most of its life, I ran a for sale ad on AudioAsylum (recc'd as good place to sell by another TS member).

That being said, it seems vinyl has made a comeback of sorts, and some people are still really into it.  Not me and you......

My music buying days were in the prime of vinyl, starting around '70/'71.  When CD's hit the market was when I learned the ropes of live recording, and that completely absorbed all of my musical experience for the next 20 years or so.
In all of that time, I bought about 20 cd's, in total. It was just not a format that I liked; that is, until CD-R hit the market.
Now I have hundreds of shows on CD-R, and I still have about 30 commercial CD's, with the additional 10 or so given to me by bands that I was recording.
I have about 12+ linear feet of properly stored LP's, and about six hundred 78's. I'm not changing formats anytime soon in this life.

So, when the CD's have rotted away, and the DATS have flaked off, and the HDD servers have crashed, the vinyl and shellac will still hold the music for hundreds of more years into the future.

[jim1274]

Hoping to piggyback on this thread.  I was asked for advice on a new turntable for my brother-in-law's Christmas present.  Having never really been into vinyl myself I'm not sure what to recommend. 

He doesn't have too critical of an ear, but he does love music and listens to vinyl regularly.  His current player is an Optimus LAB-1100. 

She was recommended a Rega P1 but I'm not sure if it's needed since he currently has an old Kenwood receiver and some old Pioneer speakers.  However, getting a new player may push him to upgrade the rest of the system, but not for a while.  Would it be silly to listen to a P1 through his current system, especially if he doesn't have "Golden Ears?"  Are there other models that I could tell her to look into?

I'd do some trolling at forums more focused on playback for turntable advice reviews.  For a gift, you probably want a new one, not a used one even if a better table.  I've noticed Pro-ject being mentioned as a good budget entry level table several places. I found this that might help, and noticed one of the tables (Rega) competed in the budget audiophile category with my Systemdek back in the day:

http://www.soundadviceblog.com/reviews/inexpensive-audiophile-turntables-the-rega-p1-and-pro-ject-debut-iii/

With the system you are mating it to, maybe these are overkill, but it seems like good tables are in the $350 range which may be well beyond your budget.  Buy right, buy once, or however the saying goes.  I've learned the hard way by upgrading several times.  I'd be leery of tables much cheaper than these, but that is just my opinion due to the fact that you get what you pay for in general.

This one was more, but has a good pedigree, and looked interesting:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MHMMF2.2

[jim1274]

belt drives can have speed control, either mechanically or electronically, and almost all that I've seen do

My rec?
Skip the Turntable and buy a better DAC, feed it from a hard drive-based media server, and look forward. It is almost 2010, and Edison invented the record in  1877!
 

Well.... you did ask...

I agree COMPLETELY!  In fact, after posting my reply and  then looking at my Systemdek table just sitting in its box for most of its life, I ran a for sale ad on AudioAsylum (recc'd as good place to sell by another TS member).

That being said, it seems vinyl has made a comeback of sorts, and some people are still really into it.  Not me and you......

My music buying days were in the prime of vinyl, starting around '70/'71.  When CD's hit the market was when I learned the ropes of live recording, and that completely absorbed all of my musical experience for the next 20 years or so.
In all of that time, I bought about 20 cd's, in total. It was just not a format that I liked; that is, until CD-R hit the market.
Now I have hundreds of shows on CD-R, and I still have about 30 commercial CD's, with the additional 10 or so given to me by bands that I was recording.
I have about 12+ linear feet of properly stored LP's, and about six hundred 78's. I'm not changing formats anytime soon in this life.

So, when the CD's have rotted away, and the DATS have flaked off, and the HDD servers have crashed, the vinyl and shellac will still hold the music for hundreds of more years into the future.

You are making me want to take my Systemdek out of the box and spin some wax!  I wonder if that MFSL wax still sounds as good as I remember.....

I certainly don't want to get in the middle of a CD vs. vinyl discussion.  My comment was simply based on convenience.  Having a whole music collection at your fingertips has a lot going for it.

[jim1274]

Hoping to piggyback on this thread.  I was asked for advice on a new turntable for my brother-in-law's Christmas present.  Having never really been into vinyl myself I'm not sure what to recommend. 

He doesn't have too critical of an ear, but he does love music and listens to vinyl regularly.  His current player is an Optimus LAB-1100. 

She was recommended a Rega P1 but I'm not sure if it's needed since he currently has an old Kenwood receiver and some old Pioneer speakers.  However, getting a new player may push him to upgrade the rest of the system, but not for a while.  Would it be silly to listen to a P1 through his current system, especially if he doesn't have "Golden Ears?"  Are there other models that I could tell her to look into?

I'm giving odds that there will be more than a new turntable on the wish list if you pair a budget quality table with that old gear.  I had a couple Kenwood recievers and integraged amps back in the day, and they were not exactly high-fi, plus don't recall Pioneer being known for their speakers, so a $350 turntable may be lost in that system.  Just my 2 cents worth.

[Thom Joad]

Thanks for the replies. 

I'm thinking if we get him a nice turntable now, maybe next summer when I'm ready to upgrade my system, I'll give him some of my gear to borrow for a while.  Once he hears how good his vinyl can sound with quality gear behind it, I think he'll be wanting to upgrade.

[jim1274]

Thanks for the replies. 

I'm thinking if we get him a nice turntable now, maybe next summer when I'm ready to upgrade my system, I'll give him some of my gear to borrow for a while.  Once he hears how good his vinyl can sound with quality gear behind it, I think he'll be wanting to upgrade.

Oh yeah, ones he "smells the cheese" with the good gear, you will have him HOOKED! 

[Tim]

belt drives can have speed control, either mechanically or electronically, and almost all that I've seen do

My rec?
Skip the Turntable and buy a better DAC, feed it from a hard drive-based media server, and look forward. It is almost 2010, and Edison invented the record in  1877!
 

Well.... you did ask...

well I have a nice digital front end and essentially an entry level analog front end. the digital new retail is about 5x as expensive and guess what... I prefer the analog.

Some well engineered SACDs come close to producing the liquidity of analog but I still prefer my vinyl.

At Rocky Mountain Audio fest this year I heard all kinds of systems and the hard drive based systems just left me feeling cold. Even the really high dollar systems. I heard a B&W 802d, ayre monoblock, ayre pre, ayre dac, mac mini system some months back and felt the same way.

Give me tubes and give me vinyl... some horns would be nice too

quote author=mfrench link=topic=128185.msg1714977#msg1714977 date=1260655151]

So, when the CD's have rotted away, and the DATS have flaked off, and the HDD servers have crashed, the vinyl and shellac will still hold the music for hundreds of more years into the future.
[/quote]

What he said.

To each their own but to me it's not even a contest. I get by far the most enjoyment out of my system when I'm spinning vinyl.