Topic: Help needed - how to get a decent audience capture

[auto_pilot]

Hello folks, my second post here (my first was on another thread about five minutes ago).

I've been trading since the mid-90s and taping on and off since 1999. One of the main reasons I started taping was the enjoyment I was getting from all these amazing recordings other folks seemed to be making, and a feeling of 'wanting to contribute to the pool'. That's still one of the main motivations now.

Between 1999 and 2002, some friends and I promoted a fair few shows and I got some decent soundboard recordings from those. I've continued to desk-tape when the opportunity has arisen, and I think I've got that pretty much sussed now - small bag of cables and connectors, initially minidisc and then upgraded to R-09HR last year. Solidly reliable hit-rate.

[From this point on, should you choose to reply, please assume you're talking to a complete and utter novice. No, this isn't an April Fool.]

In the last eleven years, I've attempted to audience-record somewhere in excess of 50 shows. I would estimate that my current hit-rate for decent audience tapes is less than 30%. I have a fair few shows I'd dearly love to record over the next couple of months and it's probably time I did something about sorting this out.

One of the problems is my mic. I've been using a Marantz EM-8 for years, and when the recordings work out they sound ok. I've found it's impossible to get anywhere vaguely close to being stealthy with this. Most of the taping I've attempted with this mic has been in small venues with the band's permission - ideal, you'd have thought - no security, complete freedom to openly record. But no. I have to hold the mic, and I find myself endlessly juggling equipment. Mic in one hand, cables everywhere, recorder in the other hand, trying to work out where I should set the recording levels, trying not to bump the mic into other people whilst doing so, trying not to bump the jack when it's connected to the deck so I don't damage the input socket and so on and so on. And then I keep doing stupid things e.g. on Tuesday this week, I managed to press 'pause' on the recorder 20 minutes in Besnard Lakes and didn't notice until they'd finished.

As I'm sure you can imagine, this is driving me slowly mad. Attempting to record has been seriously imparing my enjoyment of shows for a long time. I would have recorded far more if I had a reliable set-up where I was less encumbered with equipment and could, heaven forbid, maybe even have a free hand for long enough to hold a bottle of beer?

Help please:
Mic recommendations.
Please note - a friend and I ordered some CA-14s in the Church Audio pre-Christmas sale which haven't arrived yet. I'm told these aren't going to be particularly easy to stealth with either, so a further recommendation is probably needed. I don't have a fortune to spend, and the mics would ideally be available for me to use in reasonably short order.

Is a battery box the same as a pre-amp? I understand that some mics need power (the Marantz has a battery in the body of the mic so that's never been a particular issue). What does a pre-amp do?

Is there a way of connecting the mics to the R-09HR so that I don't end up with a couple of inches of hard plastic/metal casing protruding from the side, to wrench around and break the input socket? A right-angle connector would seem the obvious solution, but I've heard they're prone to adding noise of their own to recordings if they get moved?

I love the idea of these small clip-on mic pairs (are these what are called binaurals?) like the Church Audio mics but have no idea how I'd go about using them. Where to attach them, for example? I don't do hats. How do I go about ensuring they don't get bumped around whilst recording?

I don't particularly want to wear a bum-bag/fanny-bag or whatever they're called. Suggestions on where to put the recorder etc whilst recording would be useful.

How can I stop those blindingly bright red lights on the R-09HR? The one for the remote control, and the square one around the 'record' button.

Mic stands etc are no use as I'm taping in the UK. Any attempt to bring such an item into a UK venue would undoubtedly result in a swift exit with mic stand wrapped around neck or inserted...I'll stop now.

[rhinowing]

pm sent

[dorrcoq]

Even with the band's permission, in a small venue, you can't bring in a mic stand?  You should have no problem stealthing with the CA-14's - they're tiny.

[auto_pilot]

Even with the band's permission, in a small venue, you can't bring in a mic stand?  You should have no problem stealthing with the CA-14's - they're tiny.

Suggestions on how I might attach the CA-14s, and to what, would be much appreciated.

The concept of recording shows using a mic stand is completely alien to UK venues, their staff and their audiences. I've been very regularly attending gigs here for over 20 years and I've never once seen anyone doing this.

[StuStu]

Even with the band's permission, in a small venue, you can't bring in a mic stand?  You should have no problem stealthing with the CA-14's - they're tiny.

Suggestions on how I might attach the CA-14s, and to what, would be much appreciated.

The concept of recording shows using a mic stand is completely alien to UK venues, their staff and their audiences. I've been very regularly attending gigs here for over 20 years and I've never once seen anyone doing this.

If you're going to the same clubs and you're given permission to record, find a place you can clamp to. It's obviously a smaller option than bringing in a stand. Or get over your "hat" issue. F%*# holding some mics...that's sooo 1970's. Good luck!

[dorrcoq]

I've been very regularly attending gigs here for over 20 years and I've never once seen anyone doing this.

Like anything else...someone has to be first.

As far as attaching the mics - I believe they come with alligator clips, or at least it's an option.  Use your imagination, it isn't that hard.  I've stealthed a lot of shows, made (IMHO) some excellent recordings, and never attached the mics to a hat.

[auto_pilot]

Thanks to the folks who've PM-ed with constructive advice, and been prepared to engage in a discussion. Your help is much appreciated.

I believe the CA-14s we've ordered are coming with clips attached. Hopefully my imagination will come up with some ideas on how to use them.

[CTjazzfanatic]

I recently purchased my first recorder (PCM-M10) and this week ordered CA-14s along with the CA-9100 from Chris Church. I have never recorded a concert before and would be interested in practical tips as well. I will be exclusively recording jazz in a variety of settings - most of which will likely require stealth. Any chance some of you can pm me some of the advice sent to auto_pilot?

[earmonger]

Mics-->preamp-->Line-in. If the preamp is adjustable, keep it very low.

Your shirt collar is, conveniently, a place to clamp mics at about the width of your ears for a nice stereo image. Black shirt, black mics.

Put the levels on Manual and, ideally, set them during the opening act and dial them down half a notch.

I recently purchased my first recorder (PCM-M10) and this week ordered CA-14s along with the CA-9100 from Chris Church. I have never recorded a concert before and would be interested in practical tips as well. I will be exclusively recording jazz in a variety of settings - most of which will likely require stealth. Any chance some of you can pm me some of the advice sent to auto_pilot?

[guysonic]

This system produced by my company, and in my professional opinion, is (as pictured below) the ultimate best choice if smallest size with fullest audio quality/imaging is desired.



Multitude of live audience recordings done over 24 years with this type of mic at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

[Jhurlbs81]

Good choice going with the Church mics.

[auto_pilot]

Thanks to all who replied and PM-ed.
SP-CMC-8 and battery box purchased and shipping this week.

[guitard]

Mics-->preamp-->Line-in. If the preamp is adjustable, keep it very low.

I run CA11s through a CA9100 and I keep the CA9100 cranked to the max and adjust the volume on the Edirol R-09HR.  I believe this is a fairly common practice (referring to keeping the CA9100 cranked to the max).  I get excellent results with this setup and settings.

[vanark]

Mics-->preamp-->Line-in. If the preamp is adjustable, keep it very low.

I run CA11s through a CA9100 and I keep the CA9100 cranked to the max and adjust the volume on the Edirol R-09HR.  I believe this is a fairly common practice (referring to keeping the CA9100 cranked to the max).  I get excellent results with this setup and settings.

Is this really common?  I set my R-09 (not R-09HR) at unity and adjust the levels using the CA9100 (usually around 2 o'clock).  Why do I want to have the R-09 attenuate the signal if I'm pushing it too hot?

[printguy]

Mics-->preamp-->Line-in. If the preamp is adjustable, keep it very low.

I run CA11s through a CA9100 and I keep the CA9100 cranked to the max and adjust the volume on the Edirol R-09HR.  I believe this is a fairly common practice (referring to keeping the CA9100 cranked to the max).  I get excellent results with this setup and settings.

Is this really common?  I set my R-09 (not R-09HR) at unity and adjust the levels using the CA9100 (usually around 2 o'clock).  Why do I want to have the R-09 attenuate the signal if I'm pushing it too hot?

I'm with vanark - except I'm running a Tascam DR-1.

And on top of that... I mostly run CA-11 > DR-1 and skip the 9100 altogether. IMO the argument over the internal pres not sounding as good as the external pres is moot; the recording conditions are so far from ideal and there is so much other noise that with or without the pre I can't hear a difference.