Topic: ISO: Used Turntable - $100-300 Range - What should I look for?

[H₂O]

I am looking for a used turntable and was wondering what I should be looking for?
 
Looking in the $100 - 300 range but prefer to be less then 200
 
What Thorens models should I look for?
 - TD 145's, 160's?
 
I have seen Rega P1's go for right around $300 used.
 
Anything other tables I should be looking for?

[som]

I love my older Denon direct drive automatic turntable. Flys in the face of convential wisdom, but I like not messing with belts, and I can't imagine not having auto return. THese are well-made, *quiet* direct drives.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1275422592&/Denon-DP-51F-Box-and-Manual-

[spcyrfc]

^ same question.  any other suggestions?

[mfrench]

At the high end of the range now are Lencos.  They are idler drives, not belt or direct drive.
I cannot say enough good about them. They're budget decks that eat $10k turntables for snacks, before spitting them out, and moving on to the next to deliver a dose of embarrassment, and an audio asskickin.
If you like hearing stylus drag in heavy movements, then go with a belt, or direct drive.
If you want something that will cut through stylus drag as if it were a diesel idling through the heavy stuff, and making it look easy, get a Lenco (or their US counterpart, a Bogen, Bogen-Presto).
This is known as Pace Rhythm and Timing, or PRaT. Lencos ooze PRaT.

Here is a recent critiquing of a forty year old modified Lenco (they are DIY dream machines and can easily be built out!);
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html#May
followup:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html#June

[mfrench]

oh yeah,... crucial,...
Lencos motors were made for two markets; Euro at 50hz, and North American at 60hz.  They are not interchangeable between markets. A 50hz will not work properly in the US, and a 60hz will not work properly in 50hz regions. They will both spin up with the opposite power supplied, they just don't achieve proper speed control, as 50hz is slower than 60hz in the power delivery supply rate..
So its crucial, and adds rarity, and ultimately making the 60hz models more expensive and rare.

[mfrench]

Far more affordable decks are Duals. They have an absolutely classic series of idlers, the 1009, 1010, 1015, 1019.
These decks are thought to have one of the finest TT motors ever made.
Any of these decks would be fantastic decks as well, and far more affordable (still, the Lenco would make silly work of these).

[StuStu]

I bought a Thorens TD 160 from eBay a few years ago. I don't remember exactly how much it was. It was certainly within your price range. It's not in perfect shape, but it gets the job done. I've been pretty happy with it.

[cheshirecat]

I had a dual 1218 that was a nice piece of machinery.  I 'upgraded' to a Rega P1 more recently, but the dual is still kicking at my brother's place.

[mfrench]

closing in a couple of hours:
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-BOGEN-TURNTABLE-W-SHURE-M32E-CARTRIDGE-/390210177468?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5ada56c9bc

This is a Bogen B60 (an American rebadged swiss built heavy platter Lenco L70), with a Lenco arm. This arm is highly acclaimed amongst Lenco heads.
Sure, it needs some cleaning up, but, it'll be a gem of a table, a giant slayer, with some elbow grease and a lube job.

[mfrench]

Here is a Lenco L75 heavy platter, in what appears to be immaculate condition:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=300442184857&Category=48649&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D2

Buy It Now at $295
this one will not last long! they've commonly been running up to $400 at auction.
I'm not claiming that it is a 60hz North American model, but most of them here in the US are 60hz. You'll need to ask for verification to be sure. Its on a label tag below the platter, and no pictures show that, so,...

[mfrench]

Bogen-Presto B60, missing headshell:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BOGEN-PRESTO-LENCO-TURNTABLE-WORKS-PROJECT-REPAIR-/120589752659?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1c13b59953

auction, starting at $99 -- sold $176

This is a Swiss made Lenco L70, rebadged by the American company, Bogen-Presto
its a heavy platter idler drive turntable.  They typically have a plastic idler that is best replaced with an aluminum idler wheel. So some upgrades are advised.

[spcyrfc]

checked out for a minute, but am now back on the hunt.  i'll keep my eyes peeled for a presto or lenco.  thanks moke.

[mfrench]

Bogen-Presto - not Presto.
Presto makes a nice deck, but I'd suggest you shy away from them.  I built one to a total hot-rod status; but, they're nowhere near a plug-n-play deck (the early prestos).
At any rate,.... Bogen-Presto, and specifically from BP, the B62

The Lencos/BP decks are far closer to plug-n-play, with exception to the tonearms. Some of the tonearms are fine, others have eroded v-blocks. I've heard of fine results with new v-blocks, and, with v-blocks that have somehow survived.
The v-blocks are what provide you with the vertical motion to lift the arm, and to ride through hop warps. The arm has corresponding metal knife-edge bearings that ride within the V's. The V's are large enough to provide plenty of fore-to-aft vertical rise/fall.
Its a good design, executed with a plastic that lost its plasticizer and the knife edge cleans out the eroded plastic.
There are replacements available in rubber, plastic, and brass, and allot of people make their own easily enough.
The v-blocks are the reason allot of people bolt in aftermarket arms, and some make the jump to 12" arms.

[spcyrfc]

found a dual 1250 for $50 on cList.  passed it up.  thanks moke for all the suggestions.  still got my eyes peeled.  if all else fails, i been thinking about a rega p1.  tho it is a bit outside of budget, it seems like it should work well, with not much maintenance.    the 'city wide garage sale' is this weekend, so im gonna wait till after then to make a purchase, but i'll sure be hawking the place for camera lenses. 

playback is gonna be a slow build for me, but i am determined to make it start with a record player.  thanks for all the input.

[spcyrfc]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120596497086&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_500wt_1154

looking at this, any thoughts?

[cheshirecat]

I'd watch out for that particular one, it looks like it was bought in the UK then 'modified' to run in america (UK 50Hz power vs. US 60Hz power).  Typically if the modification doesn't include swapping out the motor or pully, it will run too fast in the US.  It will work, just at the wrong speed.

[mfrench]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120596497086&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_500wt_1154

looking at this, any thoughts?

I'd watch out for that particular one, it looks like it was bought in the UK then 'modified' to run in america (UK 50Hz power vs. US 60Hz power).  Typically if the modification doesn't include swapping out the motor or pully, it will run too fast in the US.  It will work, just at the wrong speed.

Lenco made spare parts available back in their prime. If he replaced the motor spindle from a Euro 50hz spindle to a North American 60hz spindle, which was entirely possible with the available parts, it would be fine.
What I can see from it:
There is a strobe disc showing on the platter mat.  Lencos came with speed strobes in two versions, 50hz and 60hz discs. The 60hz version is what is showing.
Of the two strobes, the Euro 50hz strobes were monotone black on silver. The NA strobes were multi-color, as is shown on that table (you can easily identify it by the red band).
So, he's claiming it to be converted to 60hz (the only way back then was a spindle/motor swap), and, its showing that it has a 60hz strobe. Seems plausible.

There is also a DIY speed controller that is in the "expressing interest for group buy stage".  This will essentially be a box that converts voltage and voltage rate.
The point of this project is to control the motors speed. It also has the major bonus of making the Euro Lencos available to us, as it converts the supply rate.
Anther bonus is that it allows the voltage conversions to be done such that you can minimize motor vibrations by supplying the exact voltage/delivery to meet each motors sweet spot.
The converter is being made available as a circuit board only, and made available as a non-profit effort by its designer.  So, with some soldering DIY skills, an intimate motor controller is about to be made available that will drastically change the way Lencos run (I signed up for one or two boards, depending on cost).

edit to add:
Why its so critical for the 50hz/60hz spindle diff:

The motor spindle is conically tapered, and smoothly tapered for the most part, from skinny to fat. The skinny end is 16rpm, the fat end is 78rpm+, and you have infinite speed adjustabllity anywhere along the spindle between those speeds.
Problem:
There is a single step in the spindle between the 16rpm speed and the 33.3 speed. From 33.3 upward, its a smoothly tapered cone. This single step is where the problem lies between the 60hz and 50hz models. To get a 50hz model to spin at 33.3rpm in NA, it places the idler wheel directly on the edge of the spindle step, and makes for uneven pacing, because the wheel might want to step to 16rpm, or, step up to 33.3rpm - its literally a cliffhanger.

The motor spindle, and wheel.
To the left is the 16rpm side - the right is 78rpm (can go quicker than 78). You can see the hard step; the spindle tapers upward to it, hard step up, then smooth machine tapering from there onward.

[spcyrfc]

wow! my mind is blown.  don't know if i'll be getting in over my head picking up a table like that.  tempted to go for something new and hassle free as im not too good at DIYing.  but, still inticed by the the vintage market and the 'best' tables that will last a life time.  maintenance and care are things i'd love to learn for a nice table.

http://austin.craigslist.org/ele/1849050915.html

thorens td-160?

[mfrench]

Don't let my tech talk about Lencos scare you off. They're amazing, rugged grinders. That L75 will blow the TD160 Thorens away.
The only Thorens that comes close is the TD124 idler, and they run into the thousands consistently, and require a thorough going over checkup, and being Thorens - far more in depth. The Thorens TD124 is a great deck, but troublesome; the rest are belt drives.

A Lenco takes a bit of maintenance action right out of the box. In about an hour, its mechanically good to roll.
I can talk you through every inch of doing that. Its a piece of cake. As far as how they hold up - they're Swiss built tanks, amazing simplicity, very little to wear out.

You like heavy metal type music, right?
Belt drives bog down in heavy bass passages. They have diminutive credit card size motors and belts that just are not up to the task. The platters are too light and the belts slip, small inefficient motors.
The old idlers have massive motors, platters, and bearings to support them. These create and sustain a flywheel effect of reserve inertia that plows through thick passages like a diesel, where belts visibly slow down, and speed variation occur all throughout playback.
These traits are becoming quite well documented in this high-tech age, with such things as laser speed record weights that show a dot on the wall behind the player. If at perfect speed, it should be a still dot on the wall. If imperfect, it will show up as a line that varies either to the left or right of where the dot was. Belt drives, as witnessed by these type of speed indicators, show the laser lines all over the room.
Idler drives don't do that, because of the flywheel effect, because of the massive platters and industrial motors.

I sold my belt drive, a mid-line Rega P3-24, when I bought a speed strobe mat. This is the KAB Strobe mat which is a 10" platter mat, with speed markings that get illuminated by a accompanying strobe light. The 10" size is such that you can place it on a 12" record, and put the needle down, and watch for stylus drag. When perfect, the numbers stand still at each speed setting. When they don't, it is calibrated to be able to determine how far the speeds are off.
My Rega never came to full 33.3, running probably 32rpm, but when the needle dropped, it was all over the place. As soon as I realized just how inefficient belt drives were,.... off to idler drive heaven I went.
I'd suggest a direct drive over a belt drive, only after I hammered down the qualities of idlers, if you haven't noticed.
You'd have to spend lots of large notes to get a belt drive that is worth a,... spin.

Don't let me care you away from Lenco. They're amazingly simple and solid spinners.

[spcyrfc]

mike,

thanks for all the information.  i think im gonna go after this lenco L75 from ebay.  cant wait to get some vinyl spinning.  its been way to long.

as far as metal goes, not so much for me.  more of a mellow sound.  but, i never know what i might get into. 

seems like these can get pretty pricey.  any ideas what this should be worth?  rega p-1 are about $400.  that is probably tops of what i would spend on a new table. 

hidden costs in the lenco?  hows that goldring cartridge?

[mfrench]

i think I mistook you for ts member sxpxdx, with the metal comment - sorry for the confusion.

The main hidden cost is going to be the earlier mentioned tonearm. These decks (as well as the Thorens of similar age) have ism's that need to be worked through.  The main one with the Lenco is in the arm.
The arms are said to be quite good, if restored. This is not a big deal, restoring, with the hardest thing being tracking down aftermarket parts. Its the problem with the v-blocks that I mentioned earlier.

Old cartridges still have life in them. My L75 came with a 40y.o. Shure on it, a cheap cart back then that were giveaway installations on the decks. I still use it on my L75, and it sounds great. So, if there is an old cartridge, that will likely get you rolling.
If a new arm needs to get put into it, you can get a brand new cherry wood arm for a couple of bill$ ($225'ish), http://www.tonearmaudio.com . These arms are a straight drop-in replacement.
I have two of these arms, and I'm quite happy with them. They have a really nice retro look to them as well.

I'm going to risk a guess here and say that that deck will probably go for around $300.
I've seen them go for as little as $175, lately, and as much as $400 in stock form on ePay.

If you bid and win, there are sme specific actions that should be taken towards properly packaging it for shipping. LMK, and I'll spell those out, intimately.

[mfrench]

are you in on the bidding on this one?
It nearly doubled overnight, from $200 to $390,.. ughh!

[spcyrfc]

i have not bid yet.  been thinking about it, but its a little rich for my blood.  considering going with a rega p-1 for the time being and patiently waiting for a lenco or bogen-presto. 

only worried that these classic DD tables will just continue up in value and become more rare.

[mfrench]

They are, and they will. With a few hours left on this auction,... it could be interesting to watch the last few seconds of the auction.
The decks that Lencos are compared to commonly run go for $2k->$4k range (Thorens td124 and Garrard 301; look them up on eBay for a heart stopper). I'd give my left dangler for a gray hammered-finish Garrard 301 Grease'r, but, at the tune of nearing $4k,... ain't gonna happen without some stroke of luck.
There was a recent article by Arthur Salvatore ( http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html#May ), where he praised Lencos over $20k TT's. His was a hot-rodded version, at some gross sum of $6k, in a custom plinth, etc.. But that's all relatively easy to do, and hardly represents $6k worth of anything, except maybe the builders "artist name" inflation.
Since then, there has been the Salvatore effect in motion, and things essentially doubled, especially the 60hz american models.
Bogen-Prestos will save you a few bucks, maybe a hundred, just because the name isn't Lenco, and people are a little slower on the draw on them due to name recognition (lack of). Seriously look that way.

[spcyrfc]

and with that post, im in the bidding.  got the roommates to throw down a little cash towards this table.  i put in my high bid and am walking away. 

thanks mike. 

[mfrench]

you bet!
I'm excited for you. I can't believe where its at now. They're getting up there.
The Salvatore effect thing that I mentioned was really more noticeable in the Euro 50hz market, where they were at garage sale bargain and charity shop fodder, for free or $5; now, starting at $125. Its silly.
Check craiglist, daily, as they'll show up there occasionally. I missed one by minutes a while ago for $25, so they do still show up as bargains. But its so easy to keep abreast on going prices with the internet now, and all,... there are getting to be less deals around.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I've done the radio broadcast thing with vinyl.  In that application the powerful motors and tightly coupled drive mechanisms were required to allow proper record cueing, and the ability to instantly bring the vinyl up to speed so it doesn't sound distorted.

I am skeptical about platters bogging down in bass passages.  Obviously that is turntable dependent.  It would be fairly trivial to instrument a TT to measure any "bogging", and I'd be interested to read some test results.

I also have some concerns that massive motors and wheel drive mechanisms transmit too much vibration and rumble.  Those aren't major concerns when tt's are used for broadcast, but they are in critical listening.

[mfrench]

At a radio station, you were very likely working with high torque motors and heavy platters, either idler or direct drive driven.
I built my Presto DC motor deck with this strongly in mind. I get to full speed within 1/2 revolution. DC motors are like electric diesels.

Stylus drag can now be easily seen without much effort.
There is a new record weight "clamp" on the market that is used on the center label of the record to hold the record flat, coupling it to the platter.
This new device has a built in chip that is timed such that at 33.3 the device emits a laser pulse that should appear as a still dot on the wall. When the needle is dropped, the dot goes off the scale, flashing elsewhere in the room, until such a time as the platter resumes its 33.3 pacing.
The same occurrence happened when it hits heavy bass influence. The effect of the still dot became more of a dash that drifted into a line (indicating a speed error) towards the slow side of the still dot.
I saw it on a posted video over on another forum. I'll have to find the link. It impressed me.
The demonstration was on a new "high tech" modern belt drive that I would have expected far stronger results from.
Its commonly known that the order of torque strength runs: Idler -> Direct Drive (modern electronics w/ platter attached to motor) -> Belt Drives.  The belt drives suffer the most from bass stylus drag phenomenon.

One of the most immediate and strongest impressions with my first idler was,... wow, this thing has amazing pacing, unwavering. This is a typical reaction that I've read numerous times since.  It didn't take long to sell off my Rega after that. That Rega sale paid for all of my turntable slutiness lately as well :)

[spcyrfc]

well, went about 70 bucks over my budget.  i'll consider it an investment in a collec-table, not just a record player. 
mike, could you send me those packing instructions you had mentions?

ltborders@gmail.com

cheers and thanks,  guess i'll be hitting some yardsales this weekend to find some gear on the cheap and slowly build around thisi table. 

[mfrench]

you won it?

I'm prepping the instructions. Check back!

[spcyrfc]

ePay is right.  i won!

[mfrench]

packaging instructions:

~ Remove the platter (see below for instructions), secure it separately from rest of deck, and well padded. Its heavy and can tear stuff all to heck. Make sure its well isolated and solidly restrained.

~ Two red bolts under the platter.
These are transport screws, and need to be tightened. They need to be tightened down to secure the motor for shipping.
You'll then need to loosen them at your end.

~ Tonearm and counterweight:
Secure the tonearm to the armrest by a twist tie, and remove the counterweight, antiskate assemblies, and the headshell/cartridge, to be safely secured, separately. You do not want the headshell or c.weights to be on the arm, or loose. They damage the arm.

You remove the platter by:
This is best done with three hands (someone to help), or by shimming the platter up slightly with some folded paper towels (what I do when I'm by myself).
Grip the outer rim of the platter with your fingers, slightly lifting it. Using a hammer handle as a striker, and a piece of wood as a cushion, you place the wood over the spindle, and slightly tap the spindle downward with a sharp rap on the wood -> TAP ON THE WOOD <- not on the spindle itself.
One or two raps with the handle of the hammer handle or plastic mallet, and the spindle will drop, and the platter will lift right off.

[mfrench]

+T congrats!

If you haven't already done so - go sign up at www.lencoheaven.net Its an amazing resource, and totally addiciting; great bunch of spinners over there.

[mfrench]

hmmm... what is it?


Presto Recording Corp. 15G2 Idler TT circa 1953:


up the skirt shots:


nice round cans:


pizza platter:


I think she's a keeper and a very fine specimen. I've been looking at the older Prestos with lust, and this one came up with a nice enough BIN pricing. So, she came home with me last night.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

There is a new record weight "clamp" on the market that is used on the center label of the record to hold the record flat, coupling it to the platter.
This new device has a built in chip that is timed such that at 33.3 the device emits a laser pulse that should appear as a still dot on the wall. When the needle is dropped, the dot goes off the scale, flashing elsewhere in the room, until such a time as the platter resumes its 33.3 pacing.

That's neat and interesting...  It'd be interesting to know how the visual aid translates into % speed difference.  And how it behaves on different TT designs..  Of course speed control is only one concern, and vibes in the platter from the drive mech or bearings are also something to consider.

I always liked the visual from the TT's with the strobe that flashed the marks on the edge of the platter to show speed.  The user was expected to tweak as necessary.  And then I think later, we had TT's with quartz phase locked loop speed control.

I have two tables.. A fully auto direct drive pioneer (not used in a long while), and an LP12/Ittok.

[mfrench]

I use a modern speed strobe mat. This combo freezes the proper designated rpm setting via the strobe effect. If there clockwise drift, its going to fast, and the opposite if c.clockwise.  If there is drift, you count the number of designated rpm numbers that drift in and out of the strobe effect.  There is a scale that gives you percentage of drift based on that number.
Its the KAB Speed Strobe Mat. Its not cheap, but with my table tweaking, its the best $100 I've spent in this game (beyond the decks and records of course).
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73731

[mfrench]

Nice heavy platter Lenco L75 60hz North American model
$350BIN price - won't last!:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=110566583655&Category=48649&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D2

[achalsey]

Since it looks like this is thread is done (but similar to my question), I'm going to slightly hijack it instead of starting a new one.  Let me know if this is not cool to do.

I'm looking for a cheap turntable (> $200) and am wondering if going with used/vintage and a little sprucing up is worth it rather than just buying new.  Its a present and the person is by no means an audiophile and I'm not even sure she has a decent playback system.  I think I just answered my own question with that last statement, but just to make sure, would finding a new AT LP60 online be worth it or would waiting to get a good deal on some older equipment that might need an upgrade here or there be better?

After a quick check this listing is something I'm looking at also:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200501522150&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[mfrench]

That Dual has what some consider to be one of the finest tt motors ever made.
Where I foresee problems is in the automatic mechanisms. They're forty-five year old machines now. The moving parts get bogged down with age, with caked-out grease. They require a fairly extensive relubing and check out.
I do not know them well enough to make suggestions to you about them. I do know of two forums where you can get plenty of information:
http://www.vinylengine.com
http://www.audiokarma.org
You can D/L manuals at vinylengine, and there is a discussion forum there.
AudioKarma is a discussion board similar to ts.com. The Turntables forum has a scad of information on this deck (1019), with at least one current discussion thread.

Another quality name to look towards is Elac Miracord - but I'm purely parroting when it comes to this name:
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=elac+turntable&_sacat=0&_odkw=microcord+turntable&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313