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Offline junkyardt

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Best car inverter?
« on: June 19, 2010, 10:13:02 PM »
just curious what brands/models folks are using and would recommend for car inverters. there are tons of different kinds out there and its hard to tell what's high-quality and what is cheap junk that is going to fry your fuse. only requirements are that it work (i.e. not blow out your car fuse like some reviews talk about on Amazon) and not be super-expensive. i just want something to plug into the cigarette lighter and be able to charge a laptop battery and a videocamera's battery while driving, and perhaps run an external hard drive for a few minutes.

stevetoney

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2010, 02:43:26 PM »
I've had three...two that I from Wal-Mart one from Radio Shack.  None of the three have given my car fuses problems, but one of the three did have heat problems (got too hot) and eventually stopped working.  The one that seems to run coolest for me and seems very reliable is called a PowerLine which I bought at WalMart.  This model has two receptacles and has 200W rating (continuous) and 400W (peak).  It also has a 5V USB connection.  I think I paid right around $30. 

From what I can tell, the key to these things operating best is that they can generate some heat, so a good internal fan inside the unit seems essential along with adequate air flow/ventilation.  So when you're using it in your car, make sure it's not sitting in the direct sunlight or covered by a bunch of stuff laying on the floor of your car, which of course would keep the air from flowing freely.

BTW, I'd venture to guess that the people that are bitching about these things blowing out their car fuses are barking up the wrong tree.  It's probably not the inverter causing the problems, but the operator putting too much load on the inverter by plugging in...say...hair dryers at the campground (inherently high current draw), TVs, radio's, etc. and expecting their dryers to work just like they do at home.  Be smart...these things are operating off a 12v car battery...use it with minimal loads connected at once...or only connect what you NEED to connect at any given time and you shouldn't have problems.  You can't expect to use these things with a christmas tree of cords coming off of them without something blowing. 

It's not a bad idea to get to know which circuit in your car your cigarette lighter is on and then buy some spare fuses to bring along with you in case you do blow one out along the way.  After all, that's what a fuse is supposed to do...provide protection so that your electronics don't fry before the fuse does.  Frankly, I'd be pretty happy to know that the fuses are blowing first (instead of bitching that the inverter is causing blown fuses).  Fuses are like 25cents each and can be purchased at Wal Mart or Radio Shack in packages of I think 4 or 6.

Another basic 'rule of thumb' that I use is that whenever the inverter goes into the car, the jumper cables go too.  If you use an inverter very much, it's only a matter of time...you _WILL_ drain your battery too far at some point and need a jump...even if the inverter is supposed to cut off on low voltage.  In my experience, by the time that happens, my battery is too low to start the car.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 02:56:39 PM by tonedeaf »

Offline jbell

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2010, 03:07:15 PM »
I have one of these!  I bought it last summer when we were on the road for 5 weeks and it worked great.  I used it to charge cell phones, MP3 players, and with a laptop.  I also like that is has a USB port.  It also comes with a small jumper cable so it can be used with a battery. 

http://www.amazon.com/Duracell-Mobile-Pocket-Inverter-100/dp/B000U0M7PG/ref=sr_1_10?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1277060596&sr=1-10
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2010, 03:32:31 PM »
I think there is a big difference between charging batteries and running a hard drive...  Frying a battery charger would be a bummer, but the stakes are much higher with a hard drive.

I have used cheap and expensive inverters.  I bought a few cheap ones from sams club, and I had great luck with them.  They were the self contained style, with no cords, 95watt.  I paid maybe $20 for 3 of them.  I used one all summer charging my laptop and taping gear while in the field, and charging my laptop.  I did not run my external hard drive on it - too much risk.

I've seen more expensive units with built in fans, etc, fail..  You don't always get what you pay for.  Remember that these devices produce fairly dirty power.  The pure sinewave models are the exception, and they are expensive.  I have a $200 inverter I use to power recording gear.

So... For charging batteries, I think you can get by with a cheap one.  Just be sure and test it and break it in before depending on it in the field.  Bring a spare.   If the car is closed up and gets over 100 degrees, you might have issues with the inverter.

Offline junkyardt

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2010, 03:48:37 PM »
Another basic 'rule of thumb' that I use is that whenever the inverter goes into the car, the jumper cables go too.  If you use an inverter very much, it's only a matter of time...you _WILL_ drain your battery too far at some point and need a jump...even if the inverter is supposed to cut off on low voltage.  In my experience, by the time that happens, my battery is too low to start the car.

are you just referring to running the inverter off the battery with the car off (or even with the car running as well?) i don't intend to use the inverter unless the car is running, period. also, i just replaced the battery in my car last week.

I have one of these!  I bought it last summer when we were on the road for 5 weeks and it worked great.  I used it to charge cell phones, MP3 players, and with a laptop.  I also like that is has a USB port.  It also comes with a small jumper cable so it can be used with a battery. 

http://www.amazon.com/Duracell-Mobile-Pocket-Inverter-100/dp/B000U0M7PG/ref=sr_1_10?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1277060596&sr=1-10

thanks! that looks like a quality product, i'll probably go with that one.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 03:53:55 PM by junkyardt »

Offline 12milluz

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2010, 06:54:18 PM »
Just make sure the inverter can handle the load. Many laptops have 65W or 90W ac adapters and thus require a lot of power. Try to get an inverter that can handle from 200W to 400W continuous.
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stevetoney

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2010, 08:41:45 PM »
Another basic 'rule of thumb' that I use is that whenever the inverter goes into the car, the jumper cables go too.  If you use an inverter very much, it's only a matter of time...you _WILL_ drain your battery too far at some point and need a jump...even if the inverter is supposed to cut off on low voltage.  In my experience, by the time that happens, my battery is too low to start the car.

are you just referring to running the inverter off the battery with the car off (or even with the car running as well?) i don't intend to use the inverter unless the car is running, period. also, i just replaced the battery in my car last week.

You can use it all day long if the car is running.  No, I was referring to using the inverter when the car is not running...like if you want to recharge batteries at a festival.  I just make sure I start my car and let it idle every so often to keep my car battery fully charged. 

Offline Myco

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2010, 11:08:04 PM »
I've read that when you are looking for a power inverter to use for audio or video equipment you should look for one that supplies a “pure sine wave” rather than a “modified sine wave” or squared off wave. Also, you shouldn't use one rated for over 300 watts. Models that supply more than this amount of wattage are the ones that fry your cars fuses. You can buy a good pure sine wave power inverter rated for 300 watts for around $130 from several places on the internet.
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Offline phanophish

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2010, 11:52:19 PM »
I've read that when you are looking for a power inverter to use for audio or video equipment you should look for one that supplies a “pure sine wave” rather than a “modified sine wave” or squared off wave. Also, you shouldn't use one rated for over 300 watts. Models that supply more than this amount of wattage are the ones that fry your cars fuses. You can buy a good pure sine wave power inverter rated for 300 watts for around $130 from several places on the internet.

What he said.  300Watts/12v=25Amps  Not too may car circuits can handle that, plus it puts a huge load on the alternator. 

FWIW some electronics are fine with the modified (square) sine wave inverters, but if you want truly clean power a true sine inverter is the best for everything and only option for some devices.
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Offline junkyardt

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2010, 11:57:24 PM »
I've read that when you are looking for a power inverter to use for audio or video equipment you should look for one that supplies a “pure sine wave” rather than a “modified sine wave” or squared off wave. Also, you shouldn't use one rated for over 300 watts. Models that supply more than this amount of wattage are the ones that fry your cars fuses. You can buy a good pure sine wave power inverter rated for 300 watts for around $130 from several places on the internet.

i googled and found this website:

http://www.roadtripamerica.com/dashboarding/Power-Inverters.htm

not saying it's the ultimate resource, but for what it's worth, this page echoes your comment about staying under 300 watts but doesn't place as much importance on pure sine wave as you did. i'm not intending to run any serious gear off the car battery. i can't imagine just charging small laptop and/or camcorder batteries would require pure sine wave. some quotes from that page:

"Modified-sine wave power inverters produce a power wave that is sufficient for most devices."

"Most household electrical devices will run perfectly fine on either type of wave form."

"The problem with wave form only comes into play when specialized pieces of equipment need to be powered. Here are a few devices which could have problems when they are connected to an inverter producing a modified-sine wave signal: oxygen concentrators, fax machines, laser printers, high voltage cordless tool chargers, equipment with variable speed motors, electric shavers, and garage door openers."

Offline rastasean

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2010, 12:25:40 AM »
to add to the list, junkyardt, I would also say any electronic flash strobes should NOT be used with modified sine wave inverters.

If I had an extra $300 to blow, I MAY spend it on this system and just provide power to taper folks at festivals if they wanted it:
http://www.alienbees.com/VIIsystem.html

That is very expensive and you could probably just get a pure sine wave inverter battery and a deep cell marine battery for a lot less but wouldn't have a cool name like this.
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stevetoney

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2010, 10:15:33 AM »
I've read that when you are looking for a power inverter to use for audio or video equipment you should look for one that supplies a “pure sine wave” rather than a “modified sine wave” or squared off wave. Also, you shouldn't use one rated for over 300 watts. Models that supply more than this amount of wattage are the ones that fry your cars fuses. You can buy a good pure sine wave power inverter rated for 300 watts for around $130 from several places on the internet.

What he said.  300Watts/12v=25Amps  Not too may car circuits can handle that, plus it puts a huge load on the alternator. 

FWIW some electronics are fine with the modified (square) sine wave inverters, but if you want truly clean power a true sine inverter is the best for everything and only option for some devices.

If memory serves, the one time I replaced the fuse on the cig lighter circuit of one of my cars, it seems like it was a 10amp fuse.

Offline nameloc01

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2010, 08:11:55 PM »
I have this..you can borrow it if you'd like..

http://www.ebatteriestogo.com/Landing_Pages/Inverters/Vector_VEC1043_Power_Inverter.htm


It has a cable with gator clips, goes directly to the battery ( like jumper cables)..keep the car running while its on, and you'll be able to run lights, a tv, charge your laptop or any number of things..I've used it numerous times when our power has gone out in the house..no problems whatsoever.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 08:20:49 PM by nameloc01 »
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Offline Walstib62

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2010, 09:21:13 PM »
OK, this is my view. I can't attest to any one brand. They're probly all from China anyway.. The thing is that any inverter has internal power loss, mostly in the form of heat. The higher the output wattage, the more internal power is dissipated. Therefor, it is best to match the inverter  to the specific load. You should not use a 300 w unit if you are only drawing 20w. You will be wasting power in the heat dissipation of the inverter. Also, know what fuse rating your 12 volt output is rated for.  P=IE or amps=watts/volts. And yes, a true sine wave is best, hopefully they actually put out a pure sine wave, but the truth is it is really pulsating DC, just needs to be smooth transitions at the zero crossing point. Usually there's a little "ringing" as the semiconductors are turning on/off. A good filter circuit in the DC section of the (load) device power supply will filter out the rest of the noise so that is not an issue.

Offline Myco

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2010, 09:03:02 AM »
OK, this is my view. I can't attest to any one brand. They're probly all from China anyway.. The thing is that any inverter has internal power loss, mostly in the form of heat. The higher the output wattage, the more internal power is dissipated. Therefor, it is best to match the inverter  to the specific load. You should not use a 300 w unit if you are only drawing 20w. You will be wasting power in the heat dissipation of the inverter. Also, know what fuse rating your 12 volt output is rated for.  P=IE or amps=watts/volts. And yes, a true sine wave is best, hopefully they actually put out a pure sine wave, but the truth is it is really pulsating DC, just needs to be smooth transitions at the zero crossing point. Usually there's a little "ringing" as the semiconductors are turning on/off. A good filter circuit in the DC section of the (load) device power supply will filter out the rest of the noise so that is not an issue.

Very true what you said, but is this assuming only one item drawing 20w? If you want to plug in multiple items wouldn't you want the inverter rated for more wattage, but not exceeding 300w? I plug in a power strip and charge multiple batteries at a time for festi's. On a lesser converter that I once owned I had added too many batteries to draw on it and it would always trip the breaker on the inverter. It makes sense to me what your saying if you're running only one item, but if you are like myself and want to run more than one item that extra wattage rating is needed. I'm not an electrician though, so I'm not speaking from any type of expertise.
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Offline Walstib62

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2010, 09:18:45 AM »
Correct. That is why I said it is best to match the inverter's output rating to a specific load. In other words, to maximize battery life, there is not 1 singular inverter that will work optimally for all load variations. And the total load must be considered in order to prevent overloading the 12 volt supply circuit rating.   

Offline Myco

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2010, 12:15:52 PM »
 ;) I gotcha. thanks
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Offline junkyardt

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2010, 04:13:09 PM »
ok, so since we're talking about specific loads i'll provide some details and hopefully someone can help me out, cause i'm not an electrician or even remotely electrical-minded and when i try to consider various specs and put it all together i find it kind of confusing.

i have a 2003 Toyota Camry Solara and first of all, it has 2 cigarette lighter sockets. the one on top is unmarked and is apparently just considered the 'cigarette lighter' in the car manual. the other is below it and is termed the 'power outlet', even though it appears to just be another cigarette lighter. all this time i've been using my phone charger through the top one, should i have been using the bottom one? and if i were to get an inverter, should i plug that only into the bottom one, or wouldn't the top one work just as well? i'm confused as to why i have 2 of them.

next, in the manual it has a notice "to prevent the fuse from being blown, do not use the electricity over the total vehicle capacity of 12V/120W." i was thinking about this one someone else linked to earlier in the thread:

http://www.amazon.com/Duracell-Mobile-Pocket-Inverter-100/dp/B000U0M7PG/ref=sr_1_10?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1277060596&sr=1-10

now that's rated 175W, but it says not to go over 120W in my manual, so obviously i don't want to use the full capacity of that inverter, right?

now as far as what i want to run...i want to charge a laptop battery and the laptop charger says it's 90W and input AC 100-240V, output DC 19.5V. so with the 90W i wouldn't be going over the 120. but what about the part where it says not to go over 12V? how am i supposed to do that if chargers require over 100V AC?

also, i'd like to charge a videocamera battery, that charger says input AC 110-240V and output 11V, doesn't say a word about wattage. then there's an external hard drive i'd possibly like to run just long enough to offload files, and that doesn't say a word about wattage or anything.

i'm just trying to figure out of any of these 3 things on their own are going to be a problem for the inverter and/or for my car's electrical capacity (definitely wouldn't try using more than one thing at the same time).

Offline 12milluz

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2010, 04:47:24 PM »
For reference: wattage=voltage x amperage
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Offline junkyardt

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2010, 05:11:12 PM »
cool, didnt know that. that works perfectly for my 90W laptop charger for the output, 19.5V x 4.62A = 90.09W. so then i only need to worry about the wattage for the output of whatever i'm plugging in, not the input?

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Best car inverter?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2010, 06:07:31 PM »
The good news is laptop power supplies often draw less than their rated requirement.. I'd guess the draw will increase if the battery is completely dead, and especially if you are running the laptop. Also, computers do use significantly more power as CPU consumption increases..

The bad news...  Most of these inverters are cheap crap, though some of them are prettied up to look nicer than others.  So it is literally a crapshoot.  As I mentioned, I'd be very hesitant to plug any hard drive in that you care about.  I think there is a lot less risk charging a laptop vs. using the laptop.

If you burn out an inverter, the output may destabilize and fry whatever is plugged into it.  I always unplug the inverter when starting the car/boat/whatever.  The starter can cause bad spikes in the 12v system.

I've watched one of those somewhat fancier inverters with a built-in fan fry from nothing more than powering a laptop.   Meanwhile, a cheaper unit, sans fan, chugged along just fine with the load.   You just never know.  Having a spare is important, if the a/c is critical.

 

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