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Author Topic: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)  (Read 4365 times)

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Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« on: August 15, 2011, 11:41:19 AM »
I've seen a number of sources where the channels are out of polarity to each other, and I don't have any problems detecting that, but I'm curious when someone knows that they need to rotate the phase of a channel? I figure you rotate and listen to it to see how much (e.g. 90 degrees, 180, etc), but what makes you think to check, and how do you know? Any tools that particularly lend themselves to the analysis?

I don't know if it's a case of "when all you have is a hammer, everything's a nail" syndrome but I chalk >95% of my weird channel issues up to angle of mics, off center setup, sample delay between channels (+/- 10 samples or so), volume imballance, or bad hearing. Am I not seeing a phase issue or just not knowing what to look for?
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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 02:18:42 PM »
[edit, huh?]
As you know, polarity is absolute, phase is relative.
I meant..polarity is either/or, where phase is a matter of degree.

There are two very different types of phase differences:

1) The common type is phase differences due to a time offset between signals. This is the common experience of a sound interfering with a delayed copy of itself and comb filtering. The effect is frequency relative, that is to say the difference in phase between the two signals causes cancellation or reinforcement that varies with frequency. Aligning tracks by sliding them on the timeline adjusts for arrival times for a single sound, which is usually what you want for recording.  For non-coincident microphone pairs, sources that are not in located in exactly same place will show various phase differences of this type between channels, which is normal.  This is type of phase difference that is adjusted by moving mics, changing delays, or sliding tracks on the DAW timeline.

2) Constant phase displacements across all frequencies.  This is very different in that the amount of phase offset between signals stays constant regardless of frequency. This doesn't occur acoustically, only electrically or numerically in the digital realm.  It's usually accomplished with all-pass filters.  The term 'phase rotation' and the mention of a single angle of phase difference usually means this type since the degree of phase difference is constant with respect to frequency and that difference can be expressed as a single number. 

Two common uses of this is stereo width controls and matrix surround encoding for the decoders in home theater receivers.  For Matrix surround, material with no phase difference between channels is routed to the center speaker and material 180 degrees out of phase is routed to the surround speakers.  Matrix encoding works by manipulating this type of phase difference to move sounds evenly between the front and back.  In contrast, non-constant shift phase differences of the first type moves the out-of-phase portions of a sound towards the surround speakers and the in-phase portion of the same sounds towards to center speaker, possibly spreading ambience around to nice effect, but not moving broad spectrum sounds to a precise front-back location.

I use Samplitude and it has a feature where you can switch the panning mode on stereo tracks to a stereo 'width' control which uses this type of phase manipulation. When panned center to 'mono' both channels are in-phase, when panned 'wider' than standard 100%, the out of phase information between the two channels is increased.  At the extreme, the signals are 180 degrees out of phase at all frequencies.  When I route the stereo output of the DAW into my surround receiver and turn on any of the basic matrix surround processing (Dolby PLII,  DTX Neo6, Lexicon Logic-7, Circle Surround, etc. or even wire up multiple speakers to a single stereo amp using the old Halfler sum/difference wiring technique) that 'width' control becomes a front back stereo panorama control.  Turn it all the way wide and the sound goes all the way to the back, turn it all the way mono and it goes all the way to the center speaker.

Even if you care less about surround, checking your mix by sending it through a matrix decoder can be helpful as an overall phase relationship check. If too much goes to the surrounds then there is too much out of phase information.

A vectorscope is a common visualization available on most DAWs that displays the phase relationships between two signals graphically as a wiggly Lissajous curve.

Not sure if that’s what you’re looking for, but hope that helps.
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« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 08:53:17 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 03:04:33 PM »
As you know, polarity is absolute, phase is relative.

correct, and relatively easy to hear if you have heard it before, especially over headphones.

Even if you care less about surround, checking your mix by sending it through a matrix decoder can be helpful as an overall phase relationship check. If too much goes to the surrounds then there is too much out of phase information.

A vectorscope is a common visualization available on most DAWs that displays the phase relationships between two signals graphically as a wiggly Lissajous curve.

I had to google that last bit (linked added for those who are lazy), and I recognize that now. Mine usually looks like a star burst pattern then a circle of some sort, but I get the point. I've used that to determine balance, but its handy to have an idea of what else it could tell me.

So I guess my remaining question is, how would I tell when I need to rotate phase (and at this point I'd only be trying to work on the #2, which isn't comb filtering), is it just listening to where it sounds good?
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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 04:25:30 PM »
..how would I tell when I need to rotate phase (and at this point I'd only be trying to work on the #2, which isn't comb filtering), is it just listening to where it sounds good?

I dunno.
In what application are you thinking of applying it? & where did you come across it?

AFAIK, the primary uses for this that I'm aware of are surround matricies, decorellation of channels (usually another surround thing), and stereo width control.  I don't think this is used to 'line things up so they are in-time and in-phase', such as aligning mulitple mic tracks to a snare hit, though I could be wrong, and I'm not aware of using 'phase rotation' as a typical sound tweak. 

Thinking about it..
The phase rotated copy of a sound would sound no different than the original.  If mixed back with the original sound the degree of constant phase offset would be the only difference between the two, so the result would be the same signal with an amplitude change.  For a phase shift of 0 degrees they'd simply sum together nomally and increase in level.  For a 180 degree phase shift the two would cancel completely [edit- at least in theory, in reality they'd cancel somewhat].  For other shifts, the result would be somewhere in between.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 09:13:08 AM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 05:16:32 PM »
More on the meters later, gotta run..
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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 05:25:52 PM »
..how would I tell when I need to rotate phase (and at this point I'd only be trying to work on the #2, which isn't comb filtering), is it just listening to where it sounds good?

I dunno.
In what application are you thinking of applying it? & where did you come across it?

to be blunt, make my shit sound better.  :P  ;D

what got me thinking about it was reading about how some folks are doing some mastering work and discovered that they needed to rotate the phase of one channel by X degrees. I never could figure out how they could tell it was out of phase. There is a serious wealth of information over on GS on occasion, but sometimes they assume something is kindergarden basic and I just don't know it.
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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 08:24:09 PM »
My ears are very sensitive to phase........when I've encountered out of phase (an improperly wired aerco and a minime phase switch) it hurt my ears via headphones.  For me, it feels like they are constantly being pressurized.  Some of my onstage (especially split omni) recordings have had incoherent phase (and an associated disapproval from my ears), hence my dislike of split omnis.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 08:27:42 PM by bhadella »
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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 09:01:52 PM »
My ears are very sensitive to phase........when I've encountered out of phase (an improperly wired aerco and a minime phase switch) it hurt my ears via headphones.  For me, it feels like they are constantly being pressurized.  Some of my onstage (especially split omni) recordings have had incoherent phase (and an associated disapproval from my ears), hence my dislike of split omnis.

touche, hadn't thought of that.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 12:51:35 AM »
hence my dislike of split omnis.

Jecklin disc!
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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 01:15:55 AM »
First off, someone correct me if I'm off in that windbag response above.

I've seen one small outboard box and a specific plugin for making that kind of frequency-invarient phase shift or rotation or what ever it's called..(BTW, maybe some mathmaticians here can shed light on this.. there are words like quadrature and letters like j they use for this stuff)
 
What do the mastering guys say it does or use it to correct for?

I've gotten the unnatural and sort of uncomfortable feeling from sounds that are out of polarity too. Not always, but noticable.  The weird opposite pressure in each ear thing. I like the omni decorellation though, as long as it's coherent.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 01:24:56 AM »
What do the mastering guys say it does or use it to correct for?

Thats just it, I can't find much on it, just that it "fixes stuff" and the Ozone manual doesn't have any additional info.

"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 09:14:44 AM »
I'm all for fixing stuff and better sounding shit!
 
Where'd I set that hammer? ;)
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 09:26:04 AM »
hence my dislike of split omnis.

Jecklin disc!

Agreed, I do enjoy a good baffle tape.  It takes away that phasing / pressure feeling that bothers my perception of the soundstage.  However, I find that I'm trying to be a compact as possible when taping onstage / impact zone and that the jecklin disc raises my interruption of sight lines.   Having taped with Gutbucket at Suwannee several times, his antennee spaced omni gizmo is more "discrete" than a jecklin disc.   

Speaking off....Gutbucket:  do you have any of your rail riding tapes from Bear Creek or Suwannee festivals available on LMA?  I'd love to hear how those mixdown and if the 4 mic mix helps to focus my ears when compared to single pair of split omnis.   
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Re: Phase alignment? (how to tell it's needed, etc)
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2011, 10:18:52 AM »
I've yet to put anything up on LMA at this point, but plan on it.  I can get a few examples together for you once I get a new home computer together.  I dig the baffle, mostly for clearing up directional confusion in the mids and highs or when I can't get enough spacing.  I like a what a wider spacing does for the lower frequencies and adding a center mic sort of gets me a similar thing that the jecklin does. To my ears, the addition of the center mic helps a lot to solidify and anchor the spaced omnis, and has become pretty much indespensible for me using spaced or baffled omnis this point.   I'd give up the back omni(s) if I had to, not the center.

I started typing up a long thing on sereo vectorscopes and correlation meters and other phase monitoring tools, but just did a search and found this which covers pretty much everything with photos-http://www.nugenaudio.com/files/Practical%20Audio%20Analysis-%20Pt4%20-%20The%20Vectorscope.pdf
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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