Topic: Stealth filming help

[pepper]

Im going to a gig on friday 14th october and i really want to film it,so any ideas/help from anyone who has done it.Or any suggestions from anyone who might just have a good idea about it.I have filmed stealth at this venue before,but im sure there must be a better way than it was done.Its a small 400 seater venue and i will be on the back row of seat's in a slightly raised area.Last time i just hid my camera under my hoodie and made sure i had the camera set as good as possible,exposure/pointing at the stage so as to get all of it in properly etc,and just let it roll.I just wonderd if anyone could pass on any little tips via a pm.Incase anyone wants to know im using  a SONY DCR-PC9E.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Wear a diaper if it's a long show.

[sabre]

These days it's easier get away with video recording at concerts as everybody has an LCD screen out in the open.

I would recommend bringing a couple of friends who can be used as 'blockers' (Have them sit to your left and right). If you can't bring anybody, maybe ask the people sitting next to you to help you out.

Are you going to be actively shooting the show (ie. zoom and panning) or is it going to be a static shot?

[pepper]

I think its going to be easier/safer just a static shot,happy if i can get that.

[shoestringconcerts]

small little quality digital cam and dont bother sealthing
there arent too many bands that care about that anymore

my other advise would be to ask the band if they would let you film.  alot of times bands will say yes

[JayBTV]

Crotch the cam, get a good spot, and once you start just go balls out.  Like someone else mentioned with everyone having a phone now lcd lights won't be an instant red flag.  Most camcorders will let you flip the LCD up or down (parallel to the ground) so tilt it on an angle while filming to limit the light.  I had a buddy who used to put those plastic tint stickers over it but I never felt that was necessary.

One other trick that I use and I came up w/ it on my own is for a minitripod.  Target sells a piece of shit one for $20 (brand starts w/ a T) that has these radio antenna metal legs but this might work with others.  Basically it's small enough that if you wear a flannel (or button-down shirt) over a T-Shirt you can stick one of the legs through the label loop on the back of the flannel.  That'll hang the tripod down your back almost parallel to your spine.  Hopefully it's cold enough to wear something extra (hoodie) which will prevent a little bulge.

I taped the Pumpkins in LA last week using this method.  The tripod sucks if you have to adjust it (Re: people sitting for some songs / standing for others) but the results will be much better than if you do it handheld.

I always crotch the camera.  Stick it in a plastic grocery bag, put it in between your legs under your nuts, and just don't think about it.  If you get caught just be honest and perhaps find a way to try again.  Never gotten caught w/ a crotched camcorder though......

[JayBTV]

Actually just googled your camcorder.  Eh.  Might be hard to crotch that thing 

I'd get a new one to be honest - if you're really serious about taping.  I've been using a Panasonic HD camcorder with 42x Optical.  Thing is as small as a toilet paper roll and from the back of a theater you can still get great (non-digital zoom) shots.  It's a low end camera - you can definitely get better quality for a higher price (better in low-light etc) but for $300 or something it's worth it.  Also watch www.woot.com they had a great deal on a refurbished Canon 1080p 20x optical Camcorder yesterday for $199.....went quck though....

Been using:

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-HDC-SD80K-Card-Camcorder-Black/dp/B004I43MH2/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1318435610&sr=1-4

If the band allows normal cameras just get one of the Panasonic Lumix cameras.  They do 1080p and some have 20x+ optical now.  They're $200 to $300 but if cameras are allowed you can film right out in the open and they really can't say anything about it.  Quality for those is pretty damn good....


.

[sabre]

Actually just googled your camcorder.  Eh.  Might be hard to crotch that thing 

Not sure if you were joking but the OP has a Sony DCR-PC9E. It's one of the smallest miniDV cameras available. He'll have no issue getting it into the venue

[it-goes-to-eleven]

It's one of the smallest miniDV cameras available. He'll have no issue getting it into the venue

What if it gets stuck in his crotch?

[TimeBandit]

now at the times where normal P/S cameras make good movies i don't recommend to go with a camcorder into a venue (exceptional you've got a really high end model but they are also expensive).

for time limited cameras, manage to just stop the recording and restart between songs . or get unlimited us models like the lumix zs3.

[pepper]

I really wanted to use the dcr-pc9e,but trying to think of other options i have.Just looked at a clip i did with my kodak zi8,and its not too bad,so maybe that's a safer option.Just really wanted to use the sony for a hard copy on tape,thats the main reason,and just not sure if the kodak will last the whole set,but i dont plan on doing loads of zooms.I also have a canon hv30,but no hdv tapes for it,and dont like to use standard def tapes in that machine.So for size,convinience,i think the kodak has won,so now just need to hope i can get it all filmed.Incase anyone is interested the band im taping is the beat.

[beatkilla]

Mini dv tapes and hdv tapes are the same.One just costs more.

[pepper]

Ok so after a lot of thinking and changing my mind im going for the dcr-pc9e.Ive got a good idea what im going to do now,and camera is charging as i type.

[genesisoh]

now at the times where normal P/S cameras make good movies i don't recommend to go with a camcorder into a venue (exceptional you've got a really high end model but they are also expensive).

for time limited cameras, manage to just stop the recording and restart between songs . or get unlimited us models like the lumix zs3.

Although the US version of the zs-3 can in theory record non-stop, my experience has been otherwise.  I always stop the camera in between songs (or pair of songs).  The few times I have let it run for 15+ minutes it started acting flakey (zoom no longer worked etc.) and the last time it completely froze and I had to take the battery out to get it back to normal.  What puzzles me is that I have recorded concerts where the time between songs was minimal, but stopping/starting still worked.  Initially I thought the freezing was a heat issue, but now I'm beginning to think that the card may be the culprit? 

Is there anyone who runs the zs-3 nonstop with no problems?

To get back on topic: Point-and-Shoots do offer some great recording advantages vs actual video cameras.  However, if you wish to record a concert and not have to worry about getting nabbed, isolate yourself in an area (usually near the back but not always) where essentially no one is behind you.  Good luck!

[yousef]

Is there anyone who runs the zs-3 nonstop with no problems?

I've only done it twice so far (22mins or so) but haven't noticed any problems... Be interested to hear if other people have had problems like yours as the uninterrupted recrding feature was a big factor in my decision to buy.

[kisspep]

Is there anyone who runs the zs-3 nonstop with no problems?

I've only done it twice so far (22mins or so) but haven't noticed any problems... Be interested to hear if other people have had problems like yours as the uninterrupted recrding feature was a big factor in my decision to buy.

I filmed more than 8 shows with ZS3 nonstop and never had these zoom problems... works perfect. Shows about 120minutes.

[pepper]

I ended up taking a pair of shorts,and sticking the cam in one leg of them to hide it,and had the lens poking out.Long story short,i got it filmed and no real problems,managed to check the screen for zooms and panning( so no awful shots of the floor/ceiling or anything like that).Not a perfectcly filmed show,but ive seen some stealth films that are not worth watching.Now ive got to transfer the footage and hope i dont have problems with dropped frames again like i have before.

[TimeBandit]

Although the US version of the zs-3 can in theory record non-stop, my experience has been otherwise.  I always stop the camera in between songs (or pair of songs).  The few times I have let it run for 15+ minutes it started acting flakey (zoom no longer worked etc.) and the last time it completely froze and I had to take the battery out to get it back to normal.  What puzzles me is that I have recorded concerts where the time between songs was minimal, but stopping/starting still worked.  Initially I thought the freezing was a heat issue, but now I'm beginning to think that the card may be the culprit? 

Is there anyone who runs the zs-3 nonstop with no problems?

To get back on topic: Point-and-Shoots do offer some great recording advantages vs actual video cameras.  However, if you wish to record a concert and not have to worry about getting nabbed, isolate yourself in an area (usually near the back but not always) where essentially no one is behind you.  Good luck!

Part 1: Maybe it an issue the camera went too hot especially its hot enough and high humidity in the venue, so because of the heat it went into abnormal functions. Maybe the SD Card also wasnt that heat resistant.
And always before each session use a card which is fresh formatted - do the format in camera you use not on the home computer.
Think it wasnt the battery if the li-ion gets too hot you get a message in display and later a countdown before cam shuts down for protection.

Part 2: if filming from front or back of the audience depends on the act. On bands or venues with taper paranoia they fishing you out whereever you are. And the sec stuff is trained enough meanwhile if they see someone holding up the P/S for all the time so they suggest youre filming and they get you out.

[shoestringconcerts]

I ended up taking a pair of shorts,and sticking the cam in one leg of them to hide it,and had the lens poking out.Long story short,i got it filmed and no real problems,managed to check the screen for zooms and panning( so no awful shots of the floor/ceiling or anything like that).Not a perfectcly filmed show,but ive seen some stealth films that are not worth watching.Now ive got to transfer the footage and hope i dont have problems with dropped frames again like i have before.

seems like alot of extra effort when you could have taken the Zi8 and most likely held up the cam and filmed the show and no one would have cared

I have a friend in san fran who goes to a TON of shows,  stands in the front row and shoots with a sony hx9v and RARELY gets hassled about shooting video

http://www.youtube.com/user/concertkid2

[pepper]

I do see your point,but not sure i could'nt have zoomed much( was sat at the back of the vnue,as i paid extra for seats) with the zi8 without really using a lot of battery power.Also the battery i have for my sony cam has about 6 hours of life when fully charged so i was free to zoom as much as i wanted.Also the owner of the venue is sometimes hanging around the soundguy,and wipping out my cam( zi8) in full view wouldnt be smart.Hes a bit of a dick tbh,and didnt want to let him see.I think there were also band people ( promoter etc ) hanging around and really didnt feel comftable at times.Anyway i got it done and im sure for a stealth job,i think it may have come out pretty good.I also recorded seperate audio,so maybe a half decent dvd can be created.Not sure im going to make a habit of stealth filming,but when im feeling brave enough,who knows.

[beatkilla]

I was at Primus last week in the front row and i saw a security staff member going up to anyone within his reach who was holding up a phone or point and shoot for any extended period of time other than taking a pic and warning them to stop.

[genesisoh]

Although the US version of the zs-3 can in theory record non-stop, my experience has been otherwise.  I always stop the camera in between songs (or pair of songs).  The few times I have let it run for 15+ minutes it started acting flakey (zoom no longer worked etc.) and the last time it completely froze and I had to take the battery out to get it back to normal.  What puzzles me is that I have recorded concerts where the time between songs was minimal, but stopping/starting still worked.  Initially I thought the freezing was a heat issue, but now I'm beginning to think that the card may be the culprit? 

Is there anyone who runs the zs-3 nonstop with no problems?

To get back on topic: Point-and-Shoots do offer some great recording advantages vs actual video cameras.  However, if you wish to record a concert and not have to worry about getting nabbed, isolate yourself in an area (usually near the back but not always) where essentially no one is behind you.  Good luck!

Part 1: Maybe it an issue the camera went too hot especially its hot enough and high humidity in the venue, so because of the heat it went into abnormal functions. Maybe the SD Card also wasnt that heat resistant.
And always before each session use a card which is fresh formatted - do the format in camera you use not on the home computer.
Think it wasnt the battery if the li-ion gets too hot you get a message in display and later a countdown before cam shuts down for protection.

Part 2: if filming from front or back of the audience depends on the act. On bands or venues with taper paranoia they fishing you out whereever you are. And the sec stuff is trained enough meanwhile if they see someone holding up the P/S for all the time so they suggest youre filming and they get you out.

As far as the "freezing up" issue, I am now almost certain that it is a card issue.  I am currently using a 32 Gig Transcend class 6 card.  I like large cards so that I can film 2+ hour shows without having to change out a card (changing the batteries is hard enough!).  I am not at all surprised that it is most likely the SD card because they can be so finicky at times.

What SD card do you use?  Is there a card that anyone would recommend that performs better in these cameras for HD video shooting?  Thanks much!

[genesisoh]

I do see your point,but not sure i could'nt have zoomed much( was sat at the back of the vnue,as i paid extra for seats) with the zi8 without really using a lot of battery power.Also the battery i have for my sony cam has about 6 hours of life when fully charged so i was free to zoom as much as i wanted.Also the owner of the venue is sometimes hanging around the soundguy,and wipping out my cam( zi8) in full view wouldnt be smart.Hes a bit of a dick tbh,and didnt want to let him see.I think there were also band people ( promoter etc ) hanging around and really didnt feel comftable at times.Anyway i got it done and im sure for a stealth job,i think it may have come out pretty good.I also recorded seperate audio,so maybe a half decent dvd can be created.Not sure im going to make a habit of stealth filming,but when im feeling brave enough,who knows.

Congrats on successfully getting your gear in and making a descent recording!  Over time, you will be able to tweak your filming as you see the results afterwards.  You'll see what looks good and what doesn't and will make changes the next time you shoot.  I remember filming some songs where I thought I was getting an amazing capture and then watching it later and asking myself what was I thinking??? :-)  You're vibe for filming in a venue will improve as well.  I used to be really paranoid (especially when I first started out) but have just been amazed at how many times I observed that basically security didn't give a hoot about anyone filming.  There are so many of these phone cameras that it provides alot of cover. 

Also, great idea to record audio as well.  It will almost always be better than the cam audio.  If not, you had best invest in some CA-14 mics! :-)  Good luck with any future shows you film.

[pepper]

Here is a clip of the show,its not perfect but i have seen worse stealth filmed shows.

http://www.youtube.com/user/djspl51bw?feature=mhee#p/a/u/0/H2IPyerI_ko

[tapeheadtoo]

Is there anyone who runs the zs-3 nonstop with no problems?

I routinely run my zs3 for up to 75 minutes (moderate zooming, on an extended battery) with no problems.
I use Sandisk 16gb class 6 cards.

[guitard]

Is there anyone who runs the zs-3 nonstop with no problems?

I shot Rush in Baltimore non-stop with a ZS7 - no problems whatsoever.

[genesisoh]

Is there anyone who runs the zs-3 nonstop with no problems?

I shot Rush in Baltimore non-stop with a ZS7 - no problems whatsoever.

What card are you using?  I am almost certain my "freezing" issues are caused by the card I am using (Transcend 32Gig class 6).  I am trying to figure out if it is the brand or class (or both) that is the culprit.  Thanks in advance for any info! :-)

[TimeBandit]

do a full format on the card in the camera.

if the camera only does a quick format (it's fast but only deleting / rewriting the FAT) do a full format of the card on n the computer (FULL format, not quick format). Put it into the cam and format with the camera again.

try a test recording with not so critical stuff when it's lost over a long time. iff the dropouts also appearing even it's not hot around the camera you should replace the card to a new one. these dropouts and freezes are a sign that the card is just before it's death.

i don't know which sd Cards is best for the zs. Maybe you should try class10 cards.

[guitard]

What card are you using?

Mostly Kingston class 4 / 16 GB cards.

I don't think I've ever had a malfunction, freeze, or dropped frames.  And I've shot dozens of hours of video.  Although - much of what I shot is short family video clips.  But several full concerts also.

[genesisoh]

do a full format on the card in the camera.

if the camera only does a quick format (it's fast but only deleting / rewriting the FAT) do a full format of the card on n the computer (FULL format, not quick format). Put it into the cam and format with the camera again.

try a test recording with not so critical stuff when it's lost over a long time. iff the dropouts also appearing even it's not hot around the camera you should replace the card to a new one. these dropouts and freezes are a sign that the card is just before it's death.

i don't know which sd Cards is best for the zs. Maybe you should try class10 cards.

I just bought a SanDisk 32 Gig class 10 card.  Sandisk (as well as Kingston) seem to be reliable in most products.  However it may not just be the brand.  Class 10 may do the trick.  My most recent odd zs3 experience was while filming a concert where there were many flashing lights going off during most of the song.  About 8 minutes into the song I noticed that the flashing video recording icon was not there.  I figured I just forgot to press start, but when I did nothing happened.  In fact, I had to take the battery out of the camera to get it to respond again.  Very strange behavior!  My guess is that the card I was using (Transcend class 6) was not fast enough to keep up with the intense bombardment of lights.  Hoping that class 10 will do the trick.  I have a show coming up in a few weeks so I'll find out :-)

[TimeBandit]

looks like your camera has a problem of fast picture changes, like the flashes on stage, simple explained the processor has more to do to convert this as just filming a steady scene.

maybe test it at home too with your class 10 card.. just record in front of the TV - or use a computer game or video where flashes appear, if you camera freezes there to maybe it's really the problem of your camera that she might be defective.

[mec111272]

I also have a ZS-7 and I got a killer pull of Disney Princess on Ice  , and A North Mississippi All Stars Show.  Mounted the camera to the mic stands set it and forget it. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/mec111272?feature=mhee

Keep in mind that although it tapes seamless, it creates files only up to 4 gig, so the whole show ends up split in 4 gig chunks. I have a 16 gig transcend SDHC card, never a problem.

[guitard]

I also have a ZS-7 and I got a killer pull of Disney Princess on Ice  , and A North Mississippi All Stars Show.  Mounted the camera to the mic stands set it and forget it. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/mec111272?feature=mhee

Keep in mind that although it tapes seamless, it creates files only up to 4 gig, so the whole show ends up split in 4 gig chunks. I have a 16 gig transcend SDHC card, never a problem.

If you had knocked the exposure down a notch or two - that NMAS video would have looked a lot nicer.  It's really simple to do and well worth the trouble.

Just sayin...

[mec111272]

I read that earlier in the thread,  I am going to try that next time. 

Mike Gordon at The Met, Pawtucket, RI

That coffee can guitar is pretty cool. My first exposure to NMAS, they are really a good time.

[calawler]

My ZS3 has frozen at least twice in the past, I just did it again a few days ago. When it freezes, I have to remove the battery to get it to function again. My memory card is a Transcend 32GB class 10. Both times that it has frozen, it's done so near the end of the show which made me think it was some sort of a heat issue.

[hellawaits77]

My ZS3 has frozen at least twice in the past, I just did it again a few days ago. When it freezes, I have to remove the battery to get it to function again. My memory card is a Transcend 32GB class 10. Both times that it has frozen, it's done so near the end of the show which made me think it was some sort of a heat issue.

Could be.  My ZS-10 get's hot as hell after about 40 minutes.

[hellawaits77]

So only like 3 people in this thread crotch a legit cam?  Shoot, I'd rather be uncomfortable for a few minutes and film w/ a legit hi definition camcorder than film w/ a digicam.  Of course, at some venues, you simply CAN'T film a/ a legit camcorder, cause it's too easy to get busted.  And some digicams are great, but none of them (at least regular P+S versions) can touch a legit hi-def camcorder, quality-wise.  But most places, you just gotta be ballsy and hope for the best.

[tapeheadtoo]

It all comes down to risk analysis... with a good measure of luck.

So only like 3 people in this thread crotch a legit cam?  Shoot, I'd rather be uncomfortable for a few minutes and film w/ a legit hi definition camcorder than film w/ a digicam.  Of course, at some venues, you simply CAN'T film a/ a legit camcorder, cause it's too easy to get busted.  And some digicams are great, but none of them (at least regular P+S versions) can touch a legit hi-def camcorder, quality-wise.  But most places, you just gotta be ballsy and hope for the best.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

It all comes down to anyone who is any good at this is not saying stupid shit on a public forum.

[Chrisedge]

So only like 3 people in this thread crotch a legit cam?  Shoot, I'd rather be uncomfortable for a few minutes and film w/ a legit hi definition camcorder than film w/ a digicam.  Of course, at some venues, you simply CAN'T film a/ a legit camcorder, cause it's too easy to get busted.  And some digicams are great, but none of them (at least regular P+S versions) can touch a legit hi-def camcorder, quality-wise.  But most places, you just gotta be ballsy and hope for the best.

Several of my shoots have been right on the rail where it would have been next to impossible to pull off with a real camcorder. My HX9V P&S does almost as good a job, and I would rather have a rail shot steady show, with it, than attempt to shoot from further back with a "real" camcorder.

[tapeheadtoo]

...I would rather have a rail shot steady show, with it, than attempt to shoot from further back with a "real" camcorder.

Yeah.  If you want to display your balls with a "real" camcorder and get busted midway through, go right ahead.  The rest of us will be quietly getting the job done any way we can.

[hellawaits77]

...I would rather have a rail shot steady show, with it, than attempt to shoot from further back with a "real" camcorder.

If you want to display your balls

 

[Chrisedge]

One other thing to think about is camera are all so good now, that so many other factors besides the camera determine how good the video will end up looking. How close you are, how steady can you hold a camera, sneaking in tripods, having good separate audio, etc...The videos "watchability" has more to do with that now a days than the camera. I'd take a well shot Lumix show over a ok shot "real camcorder" any day.

Edited to add...

Your Metallica
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy0zAvkHzv8

My Metallica
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsWrgpG-bR0

[guitard]

One other thing to think about is camera are all so good now, that so many other factors besides the camera determine how good the video will end up looking. How close you are, how steady can you hold a camera, sneaking in tripods, having good separate audio, etc...The videos "watchability" has more to do with that now a days than the camera.

Not to mention...tweaking your camera's settings for optimal footage.

[hellawaits77]

Your Metallica
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy0zAvkHzv8

My Metallica
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsWrgpG-bR0

Yeah, Big 4 was tough.  Nose bleeds w/ a 10x zoom.  Never claimed it was great.  And your Battery vid is very nice

My Metallica - Albany 2009 (downgraded to standard def for quicker uploading) - Better conditions and such:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_XQI8QKBCE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpnAsndUGds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22g_HBpV1M8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHZZnede00&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL6337ABA82CA4DA08