Topic: Anyone fool enough to accept this challenge?

[Songcatcher]

Hi All
I've been a member here awhile, but I mostly just check in when I'm looking for info and I rarely post.

I've been taping in some form or other since 1965, when I first got a 3" reel-to-reel for Christmas (I was eight years old). 1972 brought me into the cassette world and recording the King Biscuit Flower Hour off the radio. Through the 70's and 80's I had taper friends who recorded lots of Dead shows and whatever else came to town. I soon became spoiled by getting tapes of nearly every show I attended from my buddies. As my tastes began to diverge from that of my friends, I found it necessary to become a live music taper myself. I bought a DAT in 1994 and have continued with it until the present day. As everyone here (except me) knows, technology marches on. I am now faced with an antiquated and deceased recording system and not a clue as to how modern digital recorders work. In addition, I have few computer skills and do not presently have a computer at home. I've scanned a number of posts here trying to learn about things, but with a lack of basic understanding, there seems to be a large volume of material that's plainly over my head. It’s pretty intimidating. Here's where you come in.

Is there anyone here who has a great deal of knowledge (that qualifies everyone) and patience who would be willing to act as a mentor to bring me up to speed on modern day recording skills? I don't know what I could offer in return beyond hours of frustration and annoyance on your part (now there's a perk!) and probably some humorous stories to pass on to your taper friends about the faux pas I commit . I'd prefer to establish a one-on-one relationship and learn outside of,but in conjunction with this site.

I am into taping more as a music fanatic than as a gearhead. I am an insatiable record and cd collector and taping has grown out of that love affair. The hardest part of the transition to digital will be the lack of a physical master of the show.

Thanks to everyone here for all the information and tips you offer! The amount of knowledge and experience gathered here boggles the mind. You have helped me out many times in the past without ever knowing it.


Current rig:  Campbell's soup cans (classic square-seam bottom, not rounded-end cans) -> Billy Bob's bailing wire -> Silvertone wire recorder (functioning as preamp) -> Sony D8

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Everything is recorded to some sort of memory card or hard drive. Just think of that as your tape, except with no moving parts.

You WILL need a computer unless you don't mind buying a new card for every show you record. You CAN have a master copy of you shows, but that would require buying and storing all of those cards. Now that I think of it cards are getting to be so cheap you almost could buy a new one for every show. I don't know of anyone doing this though. It's much easier to just keep everything on your computer. It is really nice to have every show you've ever recorded available by clicking your mouse a few times.

Of course the downside of not having a master copy is that you run the risk of losing all of your recordings if you have a hard drive crash (all of your eggs in one basket). Because of this it is VERY IMPORTANT to have AT LEAST TWO COPIES of you recordings. Three would be better. I keep two identical hard drives in my computer and mirror them (i.e. both drives have the exact same thing on them, so if one dies I still have a backup copy). If you're really anal about not losing your masters then you'd also have an external hard drive that you can keep off site, so if there is a fire, tornado, theft, comet, etc you can retrieve the off site copy.

Basic rundown of the process of recording:

1. Have all the equipment you need (mics > preamp > recorder). Know how to use them.
2. Set up your gear at the show. Hit record. Set your levels. Break down. Go home.
3. At home: Transfer recording to computer (usually via USB cable). Edit recording in audio software (fades, eq'ing, etc). Track out recording (see: CD Wave). Convert WAV (your tracked audio) files to FLAC (see: Traders Little Helper). Optional: Burn tracked files to CD.
4. Playback your files. For FLAC files I use Foobar2000. It's free and will play back just about any file.
5. Optional: Seed your files via BitTorrent. Plenty of tutorials on how to do that. Google it.

Plenty of info here to expand on the above.

[acidjack]

The biggest frustration for you will no doubt be understanding the computer angle.  The actual boxes we use to tape now are very simple; they work more or less just like a D8.  You just need to use the right settings (WAV file, 24bit/48kHz, etc.) and you're good to go.  They're lighter and easier to power, too. 

I got back into taping in 2009 after not taping since 2000, so I missed a lot of the transition from physical media to cards.  The computer stuff at first is daunting. Where it used to be that the most important thing was to just get a tape made and set the levels right at the time, now all of your time is mostly on the back end.  Your levels at the show, within reason, matter very little, as long as you peak around -12dB or higher.

So basically, your front-end is the same.  Set up stand, connect mics to preamp, preamp to deck, hit record.  (Oh, or you can get a deck now that has decent internal preamps... though I guess the DA-P1 did too...)

AFTER that, it's:

1. Move WAV files from SD card in deck to computer.
2. Edit.  For this you need a program like Audacity or other editors. Some guys do little more than boosting the recording's levels to peak at -0.1dB, setting the recording to fade in/out and cutting the thing into tracks.  But with the computer, you can pretty much go nuts on EQ, decoding to M/S, adding reverb, adding various tube/tape effects, reducing peaks, reducing noise between songs, compression, etc. etc. etc.  My suggestion would be to at least start by just cutting tracks and amplifying to avoid massive annoyance.
3. Export.  Basically a part of "Edit", this means exporting the edited WAV file into individual tracks in the FLAC format.  Most people also like to still downsample to CD format (16bit/44.1kHz) even though they record at 24/48 or 24/96.  Software like Audacity can handle all of this in one step. It's not hard to do - just clicking a setting or two - but it takes time. 

Some people (especially Windows users) use multiple programs for this stuff - Audacity or something else for editing, CDWave to cut into tracks, and then Trader's Little Helper to do the downsample and FLAC and to make a "checksum" file which is how people now verify that a digital recording is unaltered from the original. 

4. Listen.  FLAC can be listened to on a variety of computer players such as Foobar for Windows, WinAmp for Windows or Cog for Mac.  They can also be burned to CD, of course.  For listening on the go, you either need a portable that plays FLACs, or use a program to change the FLACs into MP3 (lossy, but sound pretty darn good these days at the higher bit rates) or, for Apple iPhone/iPod users, ALAC (lossless Apple compression scheme)

5. Upload.  If you want to share the recordings the main way to do it is a BitTorrent site like bt.etree.org (for bands that allow taping) or DIME or Trader's Den (for bands that maybe don't), or uploading to the Live Music Archive.  I'll call all of that "Lesson 2" and let someone else take over on that end of things

[bhadella]

Songcatcher,

There are tons of us TapersSection freaks out there!  Many of us would love to coach someone local thru this process.  I'd suggest posting within the "Team Boards" for your region if someone would be willing to help.

[BlingFree]

For several years I was an active admin at shnflac.net (which qualifies me as fool enough) and I've spent a lot of time helping "old heads" modernize. You're welcome to PM me for my phone number. No doubt you don't live too far from someone who will pee their pants just to see your stash.. not to mention help you organize, transfer and modernize.

Songcatcher,
I'd suggest posting within the "Team Boards" for your region if someone would be willing to help.

Excellent first step.

Here's a link.. http://taperssection.com/index.php?board=35.0

[OOK]

Some have offered some good advise already.

Just don't be intimidated, as hard as it may seem at first you will find the phrase repeating through your head...wow this is easier than ever...don't know hay i didn't make the change sooner!  You can PM me with any questions any time....

OOK

[Songcatcher]

Thanks to everyone for the tips and encouragement!

I've been poking around the site quite a bit in the last few days. I've been looking at the Tascam DR100 MKII,and it looks like I understand a good amount of the features. Special thanks to tonedeaf for such an in-depth play-by-play review. I really like the ability to adjust the gain on either channel independently. Can anyone think of a good reason not to begin with this deck? It looks pretty user-friendly for the novice.

I'm seeing them for just under $300 on Amazon,which includes shipping. Is that a reasonable price, or would it be better to buy elsewhere. Anyplace that sells them also offer service should it be needed?

[BlingFree]

B&H has the for $255 shipped. It says something different when you first go there but look for the  "click for current price" link. Almost bought one the other day but decided to use my loaner preamp instead for predictability. Don't want to take new gear on a 5 day taping mission.

[Songcatcher]

Thanks for the tip on B&H.

Ignorant newbie digital guy question #1:

Is there a usb -> coax cable available where I could digitally send the recording I make on the DR100 to my Tascam CDRW900SL cd burner as a safety backup while I learn about computer-related recording? That would help keep me in my comfort zone during the learning process. Nothing worse than making the effort to record a show and then screwing it up later. Tried a couple searches on the cable page,but didn't come up with a definitive answer.

[eman]

Nope the USB is just a way for the computer to get the files off of the Tascam, not for the Tascam to put them on the computer. You may be able to go coax out on that but I don't think so. Analog out is the most likely way to do what you want.

[ScoobieKW]

Thanks for the tip on B&H.

Ignorant newbie digital guy question #1:

Is there a usb -> coax cable available where I could digitally send the recording I make on the DR100 to my Tascam CDRW900SL cd burner as a safety backup while I learn about computer-related recording? That would help keep me in my comfort zone during the learning process. Nothing worse than making the effort to record a show and then screwing it up later. Tried a couple searches on the cable page,but didn't come up with a definitive answer.

I highly doubt it, the usb cable that connects to modern flash recorders allows you to treat the recorder as an external hard drive. your files are then available as WAV files.

What you can do, is get the Squeezebox Touch by Logitech.
http://www.logitech.com/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/5745

It works either with a computer or more importantly for you in standalone mode. Plug in an external hard drive (your recorder) and it will output coax.

[BlingFree]

You will likely want a DVD burner if not just buy an external hard drive. Not many shows I record clock in under 1gb so CD is a bad way to go. My personal route if I have the money would be dr100mkii to PC's hard drive then to an external. I don't have the $ so I back up to DVD for now. That will all change shortly.

Don't hesitate to PM if you need help.

[Songcatcher]

The deed is done. Tascam DR100MKII coming from B&H. Procrastination worked in my favor as the price dropped a little to $249. I feel like I'm at the crest of a roller coaster.

[bhadella]

Thanks for the tip on B&H.

Ignorant newbie digital guy question #1:

Is there a usb -> coax cable available where I could digitally send the recording I make on the DR100 to my Tascam CDRW900SL cd burner as a safety backup while I learn about computer-related recording? That would help keep me in my comfort zone during the learning process. Nothing worse than making the effort to record a show and then screwing it up later. Tried a couple searches on the cable page,but didn't come up with a definitive answer.

You can connect the DR100 via the 1/8 Line Out to your external cd burners analog RCA input.   Not ideal (you end up with and digital to analog and analog to digital conversion) but it will allow you to make a preliminary backup copy.  You will find that transferring to a computer and your CD with it will be easier than using a stand alone burner. 

[chrisnubar]

I thought I was the only one here with a wire recorder! haha

[Walstib62]

Since you will HAVE TO have a computer, just copy your raw files to DVD, or better yet an external hard drive, or better yet 2 drives, as previously mentioned. Drives are inexpensive. Storage capacity is really no longer an issue.

[stevetoney]

As far as storage to medium, seems like there are a variety of preferences.  Some like storing to DVDs, but I'm not doing that anymore and I personally advise against it because I'm having fairly high DVD failure rates after only five years of storage...on the order of 1 out of 30 to 50 DVDs are unreadable.  That's unacceptable to me.

I have moved to hard drive storage with redundant back-up drives.  I'm up to I think six 1TB drives, but you can start with any size drive, as long as you back-up your data onto a separate drive.  The idea here is to save your master recording onto a drive and back it up onto another drive and store that drive in a separate place...at work or at a relative's house.  This protects your master recordings against both natural disasters and hard drive disasters.  Update your back up drive every so often so that you have frequent back-ups. 

So many people complain that they don't trust hard drives with their data...and they use that as a reason why they prefer the physical media of DVD or CDR.  I just think that's silly, short sighted thinking.  All drives fail...but as I've said DVDs and CDRs fail too.  The key to long-term data retention is BACKING IT UP, so that when your medio does fail (did I mention that it will eventially fail?) you're safe.  The other key is that, as soon as you do have a drive failure, restore your redundancy ASAP by going out and buying another drive to replace the drive that failed. 

Using this method of data management, you should never risk losing your master recordings.

[acidjack]

There is also online storage - several ways to back up that way.  Your own FTP site, cloud storage services, not to mention the LMA, which is a great backup at least for your final product, as long as it's an LMA-approved band).

I'm personally less concerned about backing up my raw masters as the finished files.  Most of it's only really valuable to me anyway, and if one of my masters happens to take on historical significance... well, the finished files may just have to do... Not that I don't generally save the raw files, but I'm more concerned with saving "the recording" than the various components that make it up.

[newplanet7]

Seeding is a great way to back your shit up.
Usually only takes a quick ISO on a forum to be re-united if you lose a recording.

[ScoobieKW]

The key to long-term data retention is BACKING IT UP, so that when your medio does fail (did I mention that it will eventially fail?) you're safe.  The other key is that, as soon as you do have a drive failure, restore your redundancy ASAP by going out and buying another drive to replace the drive that failed. 

Using this method of data management, you should never risk losing your master recordings.

Test your backups. If you can't recover after a failure they are less than useless.

[stevetoney]

^  That's a good point.  I shuffle my drives after a full backup. I imagine this helps but probably isn't fool proof.

[jbou]

I shuffle my drives after a full backup.

Can you elaborate on this - Do you mean you actually switch which drive you are running off of after a backup? What program do you use?

[stevetoney]

What I do is simple really.  ok, so I'll have a 1tb drive thats my backup.  I'll copy all of the files from the active drive to the backup.  At that point both drives have identical content so I swap and that's when i start using the drive that used to be my backup as my active drive.  This way my drives get reasonably equal usage.  the reason I started doing this actually had nothing to do with periodically checking the integrity of the backup...but was more that I was worried thtthat the backup might become less reliable if only used once in awhile.

What software?  I don't use anything...just copy paste from one drive to another.  Since i'm just backing up my music, I just add as I go.  So updates amounts to copying my latest masters over so they exist on both drives.

[ellaguru]

i use a program for the pc called 'free file sync' which can do comparisons, back up, etc, on a schedule so you dont have to.

[stevetoney]

i use a program for the pc called 'free file sync' which can do comparisons, back up, etc, on a schedule so you dont have to.

Handy.  That's got to be easier and more reliable than doing what I do. 

Can it somehow verify that a file is corrupt?  In other words, if you have two files on two drives, one good and one bad, how does it select which is the good one?  Asked another way, could it possibly eliminate the good file in favor of the bad one when doing the comparison?

[Brian Skalinder]

Handy.  That's got to be easier and more reliable than doing what I do. 

Can it somehow verify that a file is corrupt?  In other words, if you have two files on two drives, one good and one bad, how does it select which is the good one?  Asked another way, could it possibly eliminate the good file in favor of the bad one when doing the comparison?

I use FFS, too (and recently updated the reasonable redundancy without RAID thread).  There are two configuration options for comparing files:  file size and date, or binary.  The former is faster and less rigorous, the latter more rigorous but slower.  You may configure FFS to perform different actions when it finds a file comparison conflict:  overwrite left with right, overwrite right with left, or leave the conflict unresolved (requiring manual resolution).  FFS doesn't know which file is "good" and which is "bad" -- it just knows there's a difference between the two files -- so either you trust your source data, or manually tell it which file to keep.

[capnhook]

i use a program for the pc called 'free file sync' which can do comparisons, back up, etc, on a schedule so you dont have to.

Great tip, guys.....I will give it a whirl.  Thanks

Kevin

[F.O.Bean]

As far as storage to medium, seems like there are a variety of preferences.  Some like storing to DVDs, but I'm not doing that anymore and I personally advise against it because I'm having fairly high DVD failure rates after only five years of storage...on the order of 1 out of 30 to 50 DVDs are unreadable.  That's unacceptable to me.

I have moved to hard drive storage with redundant back-up drives.  I'm up to I think six 1TB drives, but you can start with any size drive, as long as you back-up your data onto a separate drive.  The idea here is to save your master recording onto a drive and back it up onto another drive and store that drive in a separate place...at work or at a relative's house.  This protects your master recordings against both natural disasters and hard drive disasters.  Update your back up drive every so often so that you have frequent back-ups. 

So many people complain that they don't trust hard drives with their data...and they use that as a reason why they prefer the physical media of DVD or CDR.  I just think that's silly, short sighted thinking.  All drives fail...but as I've said DVDs and CDRs fail too.  The key to long-term data retention is BACKING IT UP, so that when your medio does fail (did I mention that it will eventially fail?) you're safe.  The other key is that, as soon as you do have a drive failure, restore your redundancy ASAP by going out and buying another drive to replace the drive that failed. 

Using this method of data management, you should never risk losing your master recordings.

I sorta agree with you but I have and ALWAYS WILL backup to High-Quality Verbatim DVDR's. They are worth the extra lil $$ and I have extremely great failure rates with them!

And thanks for the FFS idea. I just use an internal HDD and an external HDD of the same size, and my EXHDD auto 'syncs' w/ my internal so I NEVER have to do anything. The EXHDD just updates itself whenever I delete/add/etc more shows to my INHDD

[Songcatcher]

Again,thanks to everyone who has commented on this thread. You are most informative and a valuable source of information. I'm starting to think I'll be able to do this eventually.

The Tascam arrived the other day,but aside from charging the battery I haven't had a chance to use it. I did read all 17 pages of Tonedeaf's amazing review, and I hope Tascam is giving him a kickback for his promotional efforts. One question I saw raised there but not answered that I am curious about.  Can anyone who's used one of these (DR100MKII) recommend a brand of SD card that's reliable and compatible?

Also,as I am new to the computer-related recording,can anyone mention a little about the care and feeding of SD cards? I see they have exposed contacts. Are they succeptable to loss of data or damage if those contacts accidentally get shorted? Is static electricity lethal to the cards? What is reasonable care - can I carry one around in my pocket with no concern or is that foolish?

Thanks for the contInuing education!

[heath]

I've got 5 working wire recorders here at the studio.  I've been contemplating bringing one to the Thunderbird and telling Swampy to give me a board patch. 

[splumer]

Again,thanks to everyone who has commented on this thread. You are most informative and a valuable source of information. I'm starting to think I'll be able to do this eventually.

The Tascam arrived the other day,but aside from charging the battery I haven't had a chance to use it. I did read all 17 pages of Tonedeaf's amazing review, and I hope Tascam is giving him a kickback for his promotional efforts. One question I saw raised there but not answered that I am curious about.  Can anyone who's used one of these (DR100MKII) recommend a brand of SD card that's reliable and compatible?

Also,as I am new to the computer-related recording,can anyone mention a little about the care and feeding of SD cards? I see they have exposed contacts. Are they succeptable to loss of data or damage if those contacts accidentally get shorted? Is static electricity lethal to the cards? What is reasonable care - can I carry one around in my pocket with no concern or is that foolish?

Thanks for the contInuing education!

SD cards are pretty tough. Static might be an issue, just like with any electronic device, as well as magnetic fields, but you don't need to treat them all that special. SanDisk makes good ones, and they're a fairly common brand. I bought an 8GB one at Big Lots for my son's camera for maybe $12 last Xmas. Having a spare would be a good idea, too, just in case.

Having a computer is pretty important, too. Not just for recording but for doing all that computer stuff, too. What's great is that all the programs you'll need to process your recordings are free: CDWav, Audacity, Trader's Little Helper, etc.

Making the jump to a solid-state recorder was the best thing that ever happened to me, taping-wise.

[rocksuitcase]

The Tascam arrived the other day,but aside from charging the battery I haven't had a chance to use it. I did read all 17 pages of Tonedeaf's amazing review, and I hope Tascam is giving him a kickback for his promotional efforts. One question I saw raised there but not answered that I am curious about.  Can anyone who's used one of these (DR100MKII) recommend a brand of SD card that's reliable and compatible?

Thanks for the contInuing education!

When I bought my PMD 661 from Oade Brothers, Doug told me that he recommends SD cards with class 6 or higher. I found a 16GB class 10 Transcend online and have had great results with it. I hear the Sandisk Extremes are excellent especially for HD video. Basically it is the transfer rate (noted in MB/s) that is important with the types of recording we do. According to Doug we want at least 10 MB/s transfer rates for live audio.

[Brian Skalinder]

all the programs you'll need to process your recordings are free: CDWav, Audacity, Trader's Little Helper, etc.

CD-Wave is not freeware; it's shareware.  A license costs a mere $15, which, if you use the s/w a lot, is well worth the price.

[Songcatcher]

I'm pleased to report an initial success with the DR100MKII. I went to a show last night in an odd venue for taping. It's an old house converted into a bar. When shows are indoors,the band sets up in a small alcove opposite the bar area. Due to the layout,getting good mic placement would be difficult. The areas where a stand could be set up are limited,and of those preferred areas, most have ceiling fans directly overhead,and ceilings are moderately low. I was pleased to find that while the opening act played indoors,the headliner (Hayes Carll) was playing outdoors in the back porch / back yard area. Mic placement opportunities were many,but I instead opted for a soundboard feed,as I wasn't sure I'd have time to set up prior to the start of Hayes' set. The Tascam proved to be as easy to use as I had hoped. The soundboard was located immediately next to the stage,and my presence there would have been a distraction for the band,soundman and audience, so I had to adopt a "set it and forget it" plan. My guesswork on the moderate level settings proved to be accurate,although probably a little more conservative than I would have ran if I had been there babysitting the unit. I was a little disappointed with the AA battery life. The show was about two hours,but the Tascam had seemlessly (as far as I know) transitioned to the li-on internal at some point. I was running Panasonic alkaline batteries,based on the 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hours of run time I would get from them with my DAT. I was running the Tascam with no internal mics, no phantom ,and no backlight so I guess I was expecting more. I would have guessed that transferring energy to motion (as with the DAT) would have been the greater strain on the batteries.

I only listened to a brief snippet of the show when I got home,due to having only 4 hours (and counting) of sleep available to me before work this morning. I picked up some kind of noise,like a low level hiss or buzz. It may have been the guitarist's amplifier's hum coming throuh the PA, or maybe interference from the lighting. I was listening on headphones,which made it seem more pronounced,but it was really only evident between songs or during dialog. The quality of the music was very nice indeed. Looking forward to a listen tomorrow.

Thanks again for the help and support from all of you here who lent a hand. I felt fairly confident going in due to the support I found here. I will take the analog out and burn the show to cd before I attempt to do anything with the file, thereby securing the recording in some form. I still need to buy a computer and learn the next steps.

Hayes Carll played a new song about one of his fantasies called "One bed,two girls and three bottles of wine" that was quite amusing,as you might guess.

[trustthex]

Been following this thread...

Congrats on your success.

[F.O.Bean]

Congrats buddy Welcome aboard. It only gets more and more addictive

[Songcatcher]

Congrats buddy Welcome aboard. It only gets more and more addictive

Thanks for the welcome. I've been taping long enough to well understand it's addictive nature. That addiction had been waning in recent years as I have been afflicted with LAS (leaded ass syndrome) which makes it difficult to get my ass up off the couch to go to shows. A new recorder definitely reverses that trend. I'm eyeing some new mics from Church Audio after reading about them here (CAFS or CA-11, hmmm) which should provide a great deal more incentive.

I scour garage sales for vinyl LP's to feed one of my other music addictions. I had to stop prematurely last week as there was literally no room in my car's trunk for more albums. I'd write a book about music addiction except it would take away from the time I spend listening to music.

[rocksuitcase]

songcatcher,
it is quite common to have some hum or hiss on a SBD recording. Sometimes it comes from the SBD itself, more often it is from a musicians rig which has poor grounding or shielding. Especially guitarists (all kinds) where they often have multiple effects boxes ganged together. one poorly soldered cable or low 9V battery is usually the culprit here. Of course, if it is a guitar rig, it would also be present on an audience recording, but less prominent than on a SBD. Final thought from me, usually when the hum is most pronounced between songs, it is a guitar cable or bad ground on the pickups; when the musicians hands are on the guitar, it gets grounded by the human body, and when (s)he takes hands off the guitar the ground is broken, and the hum commences.

[capnhook]

With a spectrum analyzer, look for peaks at 60, 90, 120, and 180 Hz when you hear hum.  Make a tight little hi-q notch filter and suck them out if you find any.

[Songcatcher]

When I had the opportunity to sit back and listen to the show on my home speakers,the hiss I encountered was only on the initial tuning before the show started. Once the music began,even in the lapses in between songs,there wasn't any noise I could hear. I noticed immediately the improved clarity and definition that's a benefit of 24 bit recording. Nice!

[F.O.Bean]

When I had the opportunity to sit back and listen to the show on my home speakers,the hiss I encountered was only on the initial tuning before the show started. Once the music began,even in the lapses in between songs,there wasn't any noise I could hear. I noticed immediately the improved clarity and definition that's a benefit of 24 bit recording. Nice!

Congrats! I LOVE 24bit recording! I still run my levels kinda high at times, but not pushing 0db by any means