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Author Topic: archiving your recordings?  (Read 9629 times)

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Offline robeti

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2012, 08:54:31 AM »
You sound a bit naive...

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Offline crossthreaded

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2012, 03:33:54 PM »
Well, I don't have that many recordings I made (just one...) but I've been a concert photographer for 8 years now and RAW files from a DSLR (not the JPG) are comparable huge to JPGs. I have an external drive with all my photos on and every now and then copy the raw files to DVD RAM, not DVDR. Still, I never lost any of my burned Verbatim DVDR, which I mostly burn at mid speed or highest speed, not slowest. It's slow enough to copy files to DVD RAM which are only available in 3/5x and the 3x are WAY cheaper. You can do the math how long it would take to backup more than 300GB photos burning at slowest speed. There's only one set of photos I do have three copies of: 1 on an internal drive, and one on each of my portable drives (of which one is just a small pocket drive to take on the road).

I don't have the money to buy more backup drives right now. Additionally, all drive slots in my desktop are used and all the drives are almost full (total of 6.5TB) but I have to say, in way more than 10 years, none of my drives ever died. And actually all I know of that still exist, they are still working. I'm honest - I'm lazy and maybe should spend more time, care and money onto backup solutions. But tho all of this is great memory (photos, recordings and such) - in the end it's all just 0s and 1s, bits and bytes. It's not the actual memory and to erase THIS it takes way more than a power fail or a dying pack of technology ;)

I'm actually feeling quite uncomfortable with external drives to be honest. Cuz the life time of a harddrive is never how long they run but how often they get started and stopped. My desktop pc's ever since have been running 24/7 when I'm at home (so they in the end get starts and stops maybe 10 times a year). So none of my harddrives ever will reach the 10,000 starts and stops they are averagely designed for. An external drive always gets started and stopped way more often. So that actually might die a lot sooner.
Actually backups are quite complicated if you can't buy as many drives as you want. I'd love to have one or two NAS storages, but tho I know they do have great prices for what they offer, it's just out of question for my budget. So I currently stick with getting DVD RAM when they are on sale.

Call me naive but I would actually never do all the effort in doing 3 or 4 copies and store them somewhere else or even in a safe box somewhere. I don't think that me and my tiny little stuff I do might be of any interest for upcoming generations so that I would need to store them that good. Maybe even I don't care for these things in like 30 years....

This will be my last post in this thread as I think my previous response came across somewhat pointed, as will this one.


To have only one copy of your files, on a hard drive that has been running for 10 years, with no plans to back them up at least redundantly much less at a remote locations shows that you have never had a previous data failure.

While your files might not be worth brazilians of dollars, just imagine what you would do if you get home tonight and there had been a power surge and all of your hard drives are fried? or what if there was a leak and your computer had water damage?

I have never had failures like that but I have had a hard drive fail on me, not electronically, physically. the discs were destroyed and there was no chance of data recovery.  Since then I have preached redundant backups to as many people as possible and have had very few who still think it isn't necessary.  What about all the pictures of your partner, kids, dogs, parents, etc that are only in digital form? Taxes, business accountings, etc?

I could go on and on but it seems like you have your mind made up so I will wish you good luck.

I still stand by my statement that backing up files to a physical media that degrades is a poor choice, better than nothing but far from what should be considered and archive.

also, as far as how much data I use.  On average I use about 10 gigs per show when I'm doing a 4 ch matrix.  I record around 100 shows per year = 1 tb or 2 tb for redundancy.  I usually pick up 4 tb of drives at a time when they are on sale.  If sleeping easy at night for the cost of 150-200 bucks isn't worth it to you than I'm not sure what I can say to convince you.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 03:36:45 PM by crossthreaded »
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Offline robeti

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2012, 08:11:27 PM »
what a great post! Thanks!
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
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recorder roland r-05 
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Offline vanark

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2012, 08:19:37 PM »
I sleep perfectly well at night not worrying about my archival method.  It is just a hobby afterall.
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Offline splumer

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2012, 09:27:45 AM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Carbonite or some other online data backup site. Is it cost-prohibitive to upload gigs and gigs of shows?
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Offline ellaguru

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2012, 01:13:35 PM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Carbonite or some other online data backup site. Is it cost-prohibitive to upload gigs and gigs of shows?

im @ ~5tb of recordings here, and i cant even imagine the time needed to complete uploading all of that to an offsite company/server. 

Offline MSTaper

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2012, 02:09:47 PM »
I sleep perfectly well at night not worrying about my archival method.  It is just a hobby afterall.

Right now I have no backup. Everything is on a 1.5TB HDD. Must get the PC repaired so I can backup to the 2TB sitting there inactive. I love living dangerously.

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stevetoney

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2012, 10:58:57 PM »
The services that provide data backup are services.  They're probably reliable while they exist, but I would never trust them solely.  If the company goes bankrupt, your data might be here today and gone tomorrow.  I also enjoy using LMA to backup my sources, but again who knows if they'll be around forever.

Backing up 3 or 4 or 10 times onto DVDRs doesn't provide 100% assurance they'll last and doesn't assure data retention, it just makes your chances a little better that one of the discs will still be readable when they do start to fail.  Experience is that all media will eventually break down over time and become less and less capable of being read, so expecting someting that you make today to still be around years from now is just not IMHO a strategy that provides the best insurance against data loss over time...eventually all 10 DVDRs will fail.  Even analog media fails...Zappa's archive tapes are having to be restored professionally before they can be spun.  Digital media is much more prone to becoming non-functional due to data read errors, where only minor media degradation of some sectors can cause an entire disc to become unreadable.

The key IMHO is to anticipate that media fails...so you need to always be proactive about failures.  You do this by ensuring that the your strategy is data focused, not media focused.  To guard against data loss, the best methodolgies imitate how company's protect their intellectual property that's stored on electronic media...engineering documents, legal documents, etc.  That involves frequent data backups, data redundancy, offsite storage, and keeping current with technology. 

I don't necessarily consider my music data to be so essential that I need to keep it on the latest greatest technology, but I do make sure my method includes frequent backups, redundancy, and offsite storage.  I have 6 hard drives and follow exactly the same strategy that Ed Tyre mentioned a page or two back.  If a hard drive shows the first sign of a problem, I back it up and plan on retiring that drive soon.  I've retired I think 4 or 5 drives over the last 5 years or so...about one a year.  I consider one drive a year to be the cost of ensuring I'll never lose my music.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 11:46:59 PM by tonedeaf »

Offline splumer

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2012, 11:05:21 AM »
  If a hard drive shows the first sign of a problem, I back it up and plan on retiring that drive soon.  I've retired I think 4 or 5 drives over the last 5 years or so...about one a year.  I consider one drive a year to be the cost of ensuring I'll never lose my music.

What are the warning signs of a dying external HDD? Are there diagnostic tests that can be run on one? I used to use the old chkdsk utility back in the DOS days. Is there a similar animal now? What about things like disk defrag or disk cleanup?
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stevetoney

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2012, 12:20:04 PM »
  If a hard drive shows the first sign of a problem, I back it up and plan on retiring that drive soon.  I've retired I think 4 or 5 drives over the last 5 years or so...about one a year.  I consider one drive a year to be the cost of ensuring I'll never lose my music.

What are the warning signs of a dying external HDD? Are there diagnostic tests that can be run on one? I used to use the old chkdsk utility back in the DOS days. Is there a similar animal now? What about things like disk defrag or disk cleanup?

To be honest, I'm not sure if there's any software that helps diagnose a drive failure.  I think the programs you mention help to diagnose bad sectors on a HDD and move data away from those sectors.  The issues I'm more concerned about involve the mechanical failures of the hard drive that made a complete drive un-readable.  These are catastrophic failures and can't be recovered from without sending your drive to an expert and having them somehow perform a miracle to get your info back (at a high expense).

Keep in mind though that not all drives give you warning signs before they fail.  A drive motor can stop without warning.  But the most typical warning sign I know of is a drive that starts to make a clicking noise.  I've had that happen to me on two impending drive failures.  The first time I didn't know what the issue was...even though I should have realized that it was time to back up my drive and that it was about ready to fail.  The drive continued to operate for quite a while with the noise, but eventually failed.

A second warning sign is that the drive would not mount consistently every time I connected it.  This actually was a second symptom of the above drive while it was clicking.

I third warning sign is probably related to the first, but it's to feel your drive and feel if the drive has any odd feel...if the drive feels like it isn't spinning smoothely or if they're some odd bumping or grinding feeling to it.  Sometimes, you gotta know what your drive feels like normally though in order to be able to 'go by feel'.

I'd say none of these are definitive methods, but they can all be helpful in anticipating if your drive is on it's way out.

After learning my lesson the hard way (I lost a bunch of digital pictures that I didn't realize I hadn't backed up) for the first drive failure, I've tried to be as proactive as possible with drive management.  So, when I hear any extra clicking, for example, that's when I realize it's time to run out and buy a replacement drive, if the data on the clicking drive isn't backed up.

If the data IS backed up, I might wait until that drive fails, rather than just retiring the drive.  It probably just depends on the info I have (weither to wait or buy a new one at first warning sign).  However, if the drive does finally fail for good, I'll make sure and buy a replacmenet right away because once I have a failure, that means that I have data that's no longer redundant.  Obviously, once I get a replacement, the first thing I do is re-back-up the data from the existing good drive to restore redundancy.

I'm not a huge fan of buying the most expensive drives out there.  Personally, I've bought expensive drives and cheap drives.  They all fail and I don't see any evidence that the expensive drives last any longer than the cheap drives.  Of the 6 drives I've got downstairs, a couple were el cheapo and they're still spinning five years later.  So I tend to just go with whatever is available for a reasonable price and just stay on top of it.  Fortunately, I've never had a drive fail soon after purchase, but even if I did I would still use the same strategy as above.  Like I said, one new drive a year is about what I plan for as an average.

Offline Ultfris101

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2012, 01:34:33 PM »
Keeping with the theory of varying media for the best backup reliability, how about recording the shows off to cassette  ;)
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Offline justink

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2012, 12:11:37 AM »
i have everything on my Drobo.  if that fails for some reason, i figure that i've shared them enough to the point where they'll be easily reobtained.  that's motivation enough to actually convert and seed.  also, i try to get every band possible on the LMA that i can... just extra insurance that my tapes will stay preserved.
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cashandkerouac

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2012, 03:49:51 PM »
i've got three copies of everything and i still don't feel safe.  actually i do feel pretty safe, but i've had hard drives fail and it sucks! 

Offline tedyun

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Re: archiving your recordings?
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2012, 05:23:03 PM »
There is a similar thread in Taper Chat:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=158870.0

I recommended CrashPlan as a cloud backup service. It was pointed out that as a consumer level service, there is no guarantee that it will be around in a few years (whether it goes belly up, or gets bought out). I've since found out that they do offer business and enterprise scale backup services, so perhaps this gives me a bit more confidence that they'll be around for the foreseeable future.

Anyway, I am running 3 copies of my precious data (personal pix, videos and recordings). I have a live hard drive, a backup and on Crashplan. For now, this seems to work and it is cost effective. If I change my mind, I will probably set up a RAID.
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