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Author Topic: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout  (Read 14392 times)

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Offline DigiGal

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2013, 05:08:10 PM »
1. Power. If a cable has a short, or bad ground it can cause an issue. A new 10 dollar cable will sound much better.

I tried many "new 10 dollar power cables" that did not get rid of the low level noise in my system.

I never in a million years thought the Sablon cable would be any different. I was wrong. I have no idea why or how, but frankly I don't care. All I know is that it was an obvious improvement that I could have easily measured if I had wanted to by simply putting my microphones in front of the speakers and recording the old hum.

GOOD GRIEF - exotic $675.00 power cables are not necessary to achieve clean audio, no matter what the claims or testimonials would have you believe so buyer beware!  :facepalm:

I'll recommend seeking out a excellent technical reference paper titled, "Noise Susceptibility in Analog and Digital Signal Processing Systems" by Neil A. Muncy.  It is available from the AES E-Library and was originally presented at the 97th Convention of the Audio Engineering Society, San Francisco, CA, 1994 November 10-13; revised 1995 April 13.  http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=7945
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 05:11:17 PM by DigiGal »
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Offline scb

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2013, 05:24:28 PM »
1. I never said I spent $675 on anything
2. You can tell me you think I'm lying all you want, but it's not going to change the fact that a power cable made a dramatic effect on my system

Offline DigiGal

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2013, 05:46:04 PM »
1. I never said I spent $675 on anything
2. You can tell me you think I'm lying all you want, but it's not going to change the fact that a power cable made a dramatic effect on my system

No offense intended to you and my apologies if that is how I came across to you.  I am not implying that you are lying or stating that changing a power cable did not make a dramatic difference for your system.  I am presenting a counter point that achieving clean audio does not require exotic power cables.  Of course quality cables are important but there is a point of diminished return(s) and there are a lot of overpriced cables out there. 

You never stated what was spent on the cable, I am specifically referencing a price taken from here http://sablonaudio.com/index.php/robusto "Pricing Model  In the best interests of transparency and providing value to end users, we have adopted an internet direct sales model, with pricing being inclusive of expedited worldwide shipping by UPS and paypal commission. Robusto is priced at $675 per 5ft length with USA plug / 15amp IEC. We offer a further 10% discount for multiple / subsequent purchases. Please contact us for pricing on different lengths / terminations."



I would have agreed with you 100% and been the first to call bullshit on aftermarket power cables.

Then I tried one and it made a dramatic difference in my system.  I used to have a low level hum/hiss in my system that a power conditioner reduced but could not get rid of.  A friend offered me his Sablon Audio Uber Robusto power cable to try for a week.

It completely removed the hum and hiss to the point that I couldn't even tell my amp was on or off if I wasn't looking at it.  Dead quiet.

So power cables can help in ways you may not have thought of
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 06:21:11 PM by DigiGal »
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Offline scb

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2013, 07:41:25 PM »
No offense intended to you and my apologies if that is how I came across to you.  I am not implying that you are lying or stating that changing a power cable did not make a dramatic difference for your system.  I am presenting a counter point that achieving clean audio does not require exotic power cables.  Of course quality cables are important but there is a point of diminished return(s) and there are a lot of overpriced cables out there. 

I should have added a :) to my post

Offline anr

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2013, 03:33:40 AM »
I had to smile at this;

Quote
The very flexible, hand-assembled Synchestra Silver Reference interconnect is made up of high quality/purity 22-gauge solid-core five 9s silver conductors coated with military specification virgin Teflon to prevent oxidization of the conductors.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/luminous2/synchestra.html


In the 70s, repairing Main Servos in our helicopters was a routine job (still is).  You'd order up the individual servos from stores, made by Honeywell, and they'd have four 50 foot lengths of teflon coated silver cable attached.  Our Main Servos only needed about 18", so 4 x 48 foot was going spare, on a regular basis.  The queues of audio buffs lurking around the avionics workshop waste bins was a sight to behold!


Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2013, 06:30:45 AM »
No offense intended to you and my apologies if that is how I came across to you.  I am not implying that you are lying or stating that changing a power cable did not make a dramatic difference for your system.  I am presenting a counter point that achieving clean audio does not require exotic power cables.  Of course quality cables are important but there is a point of diminished return(s) and there are a lot of overpriced cables out there. 

I should have added a :) to my post
The reason why most people are having a hard time believing some of the claims your making about your power cable is pretty simple. Some of what your saying about a power cable just can't be true. for example a reduced hiss. It's impossible for a cable to do that. Now if your other cheaper euro cables had a weak ground connection and because of that you had a weak signal ground from component to component maybe. but you certainly don't need to spend big bucks to fix that problem you simply need a low resistance cable and connectors. I suspect that is the real issue especially with an unbalanced audio system. the other issue is how does one compare the before and after? in a studio when sounds are way to much alike it's very hard almost impossible never mine the subtle differences if any that a power cable could bring. And there is the rub to all audiophile products when it comes to wire. perceived changes when you can't directly and instantaneously compare  are bound to flawed to one degree or another. I call this the Jesus injust spent $1000 on a pair of speaker cables they better dam wel sound better syndrome ;) this is exactly what some of these companies Not all rely on to sell product and I am not saying the company in question is one of them. but I am saying that any company that does sell expensive cable should dam well be able to demonstrate  the differences.  Plain and simple and having a demo room does not cut it when you can't instantaneously com pair between plain copper and the product being demonstrated don't you think? 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 06:34:58 AM by Church-Audio »
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Offline scb

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2013, 08:19:27 AM »
the other issue is how does one compare the before and after?

Before: if you walked into the room and the amp was on with no signal going to it, you'd know it because you could hear a hum (amp at the time was a 7 channel Arcam P7). I could never leave my amp on by accident because I could always hear that it was on and would remember to turn it off when done.

After: the hum was gone.

This is not anything where I was biased because I spent x amount of dollars on a cable and wanted to convince myself that it was worth it. This was a friend saying "I know you don't believe any of this bullshit, but plug this in for a week and give it a shot. If you can't notice a difference, give it back. But I think don't think you'll want to give it back."

I ended up buying it from him. I didn't want to hear a difference because I didn't see how it was possible and thought it would be a waste of money. But it was an obvious difference. I hooked the cable up between my power conditioner and the wall and the hum was gone the minute I turned everything on. The previous cables I had used (thinking maybe the hum was from a bad cable) were a bunch of plain old 15A power cables of various gauges and an Audio Magic x-stream cable that came with the conditioner.

I can't tell you why and frankly I don't care. I just know it made a difference, I'm not imagining anything, and I'm not the only one who compared the before and after in my system.


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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2013, 11:21:32 AM »
the other issue is how does one compare the before and after?

Before: if you walked into the room and the amp was on with no signal going to it, you'd know it because you could hear a hum (amp at the time was a 7 channel Arcam P7). I could never leave my amp on by accident because I could always hear that it was on and would remember to turn it off when done.

After: the hum was gone.

This is not anything where I was biased because I spent x amount of dollars on a cable and wanted to convince myself that it was worth it. This was a friend saying "I know you don't believe any of this bullshit, but plug this in for a week and give it a shot. If you can't notice a difference, give it back. But I think don't think you'll want to give it back."

I ended up buying it from him. I didn't want to hear a difference because I didn't see how it was possible and thought it would be a waste of money. But it was an obvious difference. I hooked the cable up between my power conditioner and the wall and the hum was gone the minute I turned everything on. The previous cables I had used (thinking maybe the hum was from a bad cable) were a bunch of plain old 15A power cables of various gauges and an Audio Magic x-stream cable that came with the conditioner.

I can't tell you why and frankly I don't care. I just know it made a difference, I'm not imagining anything, and I'm not the only one who compared the before and after in my system.
You had a better ground plain and simple no magic mojo going on. just a better ground. Other possibility is they rf  shielded the hot and neutral from the ground.   that just means you have a poorly designed power supply in your power amp. My point is before anyone spends this kind of money on cables you have to ask your self is there something that is cheaper that will produce the same results chances are there is. One last thing sometimes moving power cables away from unbalanced signal lines will also achieve the same result ;) much cheaper than spending $$$ on fancy power cables!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 11:23:39 AM by Church-Audio »
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Offline datbrad

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2013, 02:55:59 PM »
You guys are actually making a great point about cost, but if you knew the range of audiophile cables available and at what price points, you would see why Luminous is so well regarded. Tim learned a great deal from Bill Low and Bob Crump in the early days of Luminous Audio, a company he started while a dealer in audiophile components. Tim realized that he could make cables using all the same level of materials for a fraction of the price. Take Audioquest products, for example. Tim built his top line speaker cable, the Synchestra Signature, as a direct answer to the Audioquest Everest that sells for $8,000 for a 6ft pair. A $300 version of an $8000 speaker cable I would not call "overpriced", any more than I would call an Acura overpriced that's sitting next to a Porsche.

 
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2013, 03:14:46 PM »
Brad,

What we are saying is, cheap compared to other even more overpriced cables can still be overpriced.

People on this forum are more than willing to spend money where it counts. Quality mics and preamps. Reliable recorders. Accurate speakers, etc...

We also tend to be engineering oriented and skeptical of the claims of audiophile products. The science and engineering of audio reproduction is well understood.

Unless you can link to quality science to back your claims you'll keep running into the same questions.

Proper shielding, proper grounding, well built connectors are important. However quality cable runs no more than $5 a foot, well made low impedence connectors run less than $10 a piece for audio, under $20 a piece for electrical connectors.

I would challenge you to compare in an ABX test a cable built by Bluejeanscable.com, who use Canare and Neutrik connectors with high quality Belden cables with your "audiophile" cables.

In fact, I'll go a step further and suggest you contact the James Randi foundation. They are offering a million dollar prize to any audiophile cable company that can prove that their speaker cables are better than Monster Cables (which are also overpriced) http://randi.org. Good luck.

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Offline DigiGal

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Offline dallman

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2013, 04:14:28 PM »
It is well worth the time to absorb the material presented here...

Audio Myths Workshop (Abridged Video) from AES Show #127, October 2009

AES Audio Myths Video - Support Files
The above was really enjoyable! Thanks!
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Offline raymonda

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2013, 10:09:31 AM »
IMO, cables can have an effect on the sound for a number of reasons and some come with a cost........but $6,000 for 6 feet of cable is money not wisely spent. That being said, although I use Canare mic cables for live sound........they are built well.......my Audio Quest out performs them in my playback system, as well as my DIY cables of teflon, silver plated copper.

The measurement crowd should be careful of saying show me the measurement that proves there is a difference. Observation often comes before measured proof. Not until we know what we need to measure and have the tools to do so can we then have scientific proof, which supports, or doesn't support, the observation. Think "round vs. flat earth" and "digital jitter".


Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2013, 10:46:47 AM »
IMO, cables can have an effect on the sound for a number of reasons and some come with a cost........but $6,000 for 6 feet of cable is money not wisely spent. That being said, although I use Canare mic cables for live sound........they are built well.......my Audio Quest out performs them in my playback system, as well as my DIY cables of teflon, silver plated copper.

The measurement crowd should be careful of saying show me the measurement that proves there is a difference. Observation often comes before measured proof. Not until we know what we need to measure and have the tools to do so can we then have scientific proof, which supports, or doesn't support, the observation. Think "round vs. flat earth" and "digital jitter".
We have the technology now, that if there is a difference it can be measured. When you are selling a product and saying its so much better than a standard available product you should be able to say more than "just because I said so" If you cant then something is wrong.
You should also be able to pass standard blind tests.

But so far most of these companies are fine with taking your money but don't seem to want to "bother" to do any real blind listening tests..... Funny how that works? Am I saying quality cables don't make a difference in the way a system performs.. NO what I am saying is you don't need to spend $6k to get a quality cable no where near that.

That's the bottom line. Some of these companies are selling snake oil some are selling a quality product but without doing measurements and blind listening tests how can we be sure what we are hearing?? By the time you switch out a pair of speaker cables you are really going to tell me you remember exactly what you old system sounded like and thus can compare the two ? maybe major differences but not minor ones that's for sure especially after all that time elapses. And major differences would and should be absolutely expected with a quality cable vs a crappy quality speaker cable that has high resistance. 

Again am I saying that there wont be a difference between a crap cable and a quality one no. But how many degrees of change would be noticeable after spending 6k I don't think much and certainly not enough to justify spending that kind of money. I think if you cant find a good pair of speaker cables 10 foot pair for under $250 something is really wrong. And I don't think to many people here would disagree with me.

I am sure you did not spend 6k on cables and you seem to be like me willing to spend a few bucks for cables because you realize like I do that they are not all equal my problem is with the companies charging so much for cables and willing or able to prove nothing in exchange except look at my shiny cables!! Thats b.s Its better because I said it is now pay me $6k for these cables lol really? Reminds me of the guy selling "Rolex" watches on a street corner.

Chris


Chris
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Offline raymonda

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Re: Stereophile article - $60K system using Luminous Audio Cables throughout
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2013, 01:13:55 PM »
IMO, cables can have an effect on the sound for a number of reasons and some come with a cost........but $6,000 for 6 feet of cable is money not wisely spent. That being said, although I use Canare mic cables for live sound........they are built well.......my Audio Quest out performs them in my playback system, as well as my DIY cables of teflon, silver plated copper.

The measurement crowd should be careful of saying show me the measurement that proves there is a difference. Observation often comes before measured proof. Not until we know what we need to measure and have the tools to do so can we then have scientific proof, which supports, or doesn't support, the observation. Think "round vs. flat earth" and "digital jitter".
We have the technology now, that if there is a difference it can be measured. When you are selling a product and saying its so much better than a standard available product you should be able to say more than "just because I said so" If you cant then something is wrong.
You should also be able to pass standard blind tests.

But so far most of these companies are fine with taking your money but don't seem to want to "bother" to do any real blind listening tests..... Funny how that works? Am I saying quality cables don't make a difference in the way a system performs.. NO what I am saying is you don't need to spend $6k to get a quality cable no where near that.

That's the bottom line. Some of these companies are selling snake oil some are selling a quality product but without doing measurements and blind listening tests how can we be sure what we are hearing?? By the time you switch out a pair of speaker cables you are really going to tell me you remember exactly what you old system sounded like and thus can compare the two ? maybe major differences but not minor ones that's for sure especially after all that time elapses. And major differences would and should be absolutely expected with a quality cable vs a crappy quality speaker cable that has high resistance. 

Again am I saying that there wont be a difference between a crap cable and a quality one no. But how many degrees of change would be noticeable after spending 6k I don't think much and certainly not enough to justify spending that kind of money. I think if you cant find a good pair of speaker cables 10 foot pair for under $250 something is really wrong. And I don't think to many people here would disagree with me.

I am sure you did not spend 6k on cables and you seem to be like me willing to spend a few bucks for cables because you realize like I do that they are not all equal my problem is with the companies charging so much for cables and willing or able to prove nothing in exchange except look at my shiny cables!! Thats b.s Its better because I said it is now pay me $6k for these cables lol really? Reminds me of the guy selling "Rolex" watches on a street corner.

Chris


Chris

Seems like a lot of repetition of statements already made. Most people agree on what has been presented and would agree that there is a lot of "snake oil" salesmen in all aspects of audio beyond cables. How about a $150,000 amp that uses $700.00 worth of parts and engineering that was designed 75 years ago. How about those inexpensive mic clips and accessories that cost $1.25 to make and they charge $75.00 to $200.00 to their customers. How about using 50 year old mic technology and $50.00 worth of parts and charge $5,000 to customers for the end product.


 

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