Topic: FOB vs. Matrix in this situation

[ScoobieKW]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

If you unpatch the snake channels from the board's inputs it's not an issue. If the FOH engineer wants to leave the channels patched into the board and routes the channels to an output for you, then he'll have to deal with phantom.

[Gutbucket]

Actually, here's a better variant on the 'expanding upon your known good' setup I mentioned earlier-

Swap the M10 and the DR-680.  Run your AUD mics located at your normal FOB position into the M10 since you only need to record two channels there.  That moves the DR-680 back to the board location to record the 2ch SBD mix, leaving an additional 4 channels on that machine to which you could record ambient room mics at the board location, submixes or individual board channels. 

That provides you with lots of options without changing things too much and lets you push the optional complications to the end of your setup after your FOB pair and SBD pair are set.  If everything goes smoothly you can go bananas with the extra channels you have available back there.  If not you can forget about the extra stuff and fall back on your FOB pair and a straight SBD pair.  Well hedged.

[edit- I'd still prefer mics on stage, but if that's out of the question this is a good, relatively low-stress option]

[F.O.Bean]

Actually, here's a better variant on the 'expanding upon your known good' setup I mentioned earlier-

Swap the M10 and the DR-680.  Run your AUD mics located at your normal FOB position into the M10 since you only need to record two channels there.  That moves the DR-680 back to the board location to record the 2ch SBD mix, leaving an additional 4 channels on that machine to which you could record ambient room mics at the board location, submixes or individual board channels. 

That provides you with lots of options without changing things too much and lets you push the optional complications to the end of your setup after your FOB pair and SBD pair are set.  If everything goes smoothly you can go bananas with the extra channels you have available back there.  If not you can forget about the extra stuff and fall back on your FOB pair and a straight SBD pair.  Well hedged.

100% agreed! great  info!

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If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

If you unpatch the snake channels from the board's inputs it's not an issue. If the FOH engineer wants to leave the channels patched into the board and routes the channels to an output for you, then he'll have to deal with phantom.

I always try and unplug from the sbd if possible. It gives me control of the channels and prevents them from having to deal with it (a win/win in my environment). I actually have a venue that won't let us plug our stuff into the sbd and only lets us use the snake if we pull the channels.

[ScoobieKW]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

If you unpatch the snake channels from the board's inputs it's not an issue. If the FOH engineer wants to leave the channels patched into the board and routes the channels to an output for you, then he'll have to deal with phantom.

I always try and unplug from the sbd if possible. It gives me control of the channels and prevents them from having to deal with it (a win/win in my environment). I actually have a venue that won't let us plug our stuff into the sbd and only lets us use the snake if we pull the channels.

+1

[F.O.Bean]

I feel left out. I have been recording for a pretty long time, and have MAYBE patched from a SBD 10 times MAX!!! I guess if I did more often I would def have a 680!!!

[danlynch]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

If you unpatch the snake channels from the board's inputs it's not an issue. If the FOH engineer wants to leave the channels patched into the board and routes the channels to an output for you, then he'll have to deal with phantom.

I always try and unplug from the sbd if possible. It gives me control of the channels and prevents them from having to deal with it (a win/win in my environment). I actually have a venue that won't let us plug our stuff into the sbd and only lets us use the snake if we pull the channels.

I agree that's the best possible scenario, but that's not always possible or not always something the FOH wants to do.

[Gutbucket]

Bean, IMO a truely perfect AUD needs no SBD with which to matrix.  Of couse much of what makes that perfection possible is well outside of our control. Perhaps you've had the cosmic luck to nail a near-perfect AUD most every time. 

[page]

I always try and unplug from the sbd if possible. It gives me control of the channels and prevents them from having to deal with it (a win/win in my environment). I actually have a venue that won't let us plug our stuff into the sbd and only lets us use the snake if we pull the channels.

I agree that's the best possible scenario, but that's not always possible or not always something the FOH wants to do.

yeah I agree, it's not always possible. 

its one of those reasons that I try and make friends with the venue staff; my odds of getting them to do that improves.

[taperj]

Just one point to add about this kind of situation, taped from the back of the room a sparse room with just a few talkers makes your ear really go to the talkers on the tape(even with a SBD feed to mix in), I've had this happen at venues in Chicago that are about the same kind of room you're talking about taping. A packed room with everyone talking and hooting almost becomes white noise, your ear doesn't get drawn to it so much. I'd probably be doing a pair on-stage(through the snake)+SBD. Also remember when using more mics there can be more cancellation, I'd lay down all the pairs on separate tracks and mix in post to be sure you get just the sound you are looking for. Good luck with it, hope it turns out great 

[Phil Zone]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

Why would you need that? Wouldn't you normally still run it through your preamps like normal. Just patching out where snake opens by the sbd

[acidjack]

I know there are those who claim FOB AUDs are better than matrixes. I am not one of those people.

If the FOH is competent/the board mix includes most of the instruments, I'd take matrix every single time. It's just less unpredictable - less guarding your stand, less chance of some idiot talking under it.  You know the SBD won't have an idiot talking in it, no matter what else happens.

Obviously onstage+SBD is ideal, and I've done it by just running a long cable back (taped down carefully). But if not, assuming the SBD is a fairly full mix, I'd take the matrix.

[Gutbucket]

I agree with that.  The truly perfect AUD which doesn't benefit from at least a touch of (decent) SBD is a rare breed.. those with vocals on the endangered list.  Always best to hedge one's bet IMO and record the SBD if possible without hassle.  One needn't (over)use it just because it's recorded, but I'm already on record around here for advocating not going overboard with too much SBD in the matrix.  That always seems a crutch for a shity AUD to me and takes the focus off the skill and effort required to make truly great live recordings.  Anyone can patch into the board, it takes learned skill to make a truly great AUD.

I'm amazed at how well on-stage can work to reduce, not eliminate, quite bad crowd yap that is simply depressingly annoying out in the room, and even without any SBD if it's an appropriate instrumental band.  I mostly do a pretty good job of avoiding those situations, but had one last month that turned out much better than I expected it would from actually being there.  Something of a pleasant surprise.

[danlynch]

This is an example of an onstage with minimal soundboard (maybe 20% board):
http://www.nyctaper.com/2013/12/the-notekillers-november-5-2013-trans-pecos-flacmp3streaming/

Its a small room and the show wasn't packed, so I was able to run my cables (taped down) all the way to the board on the side of the stage.  No vocals, so I only really "needed" the board for the saxophone in one song.  I love how the guitar is heavier in the right channel and the bass heavier in the left, and drums centered.  A real "soundstage".

[F.O.Bean]

Bean, IMO a truely perfect AUD needs no SBD with which to matrix.  Of couse much of what makes that perfection possible is well outside of our control. Perhaps you've had the cosmic luck to nail a near-perfect AUD most every time. 

No luck here But I must admit, since getting my schoeps back in 2011, I honestly can't think of ONE recording I haven't been happy with