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Author Topic: some like it hot?  (Read 9829 times)

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Offline phriendlyguy

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some like it hot?
« on: September 09, 2002, 01:41:51 AM »
dr schoeps.  assuming you run schoeps.  what pre do you run and hot do you run it usually.  do you run the pre hot and the a/d to dial it all in.  or fire the a/d and pre soft.  this just seems to be an on going argument not supported by fact, between friends.  the nuemanns like to be hot, and i have heard different about schoeps.  not as much pre is better?  the rig is only as good as the user.  alwys searching for an opinion.  ??? PEACE  

Offline Bri

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2002, 09:01:02 AM »
Your assumption is correct ;) I run the pre in the Apogee. As for gain, I push it to the pegs, meaning I run as hot as possible. For me, the green light on the apogee means go, the yellow yield and the red stop. I maybe clip once or twice or more trying to get as hot as possible w/o clipping. Essentially maximizing the frequency responce of the recording by using all the bandwidth.

If I were to run a pre, I would run the apogee in it's "line or mic level calibrated" mode. Check the output of the pre. That way the apogee (or whatever pre) knows to expect +4 pr or -10 consumer or mic level -45 dBu, 150 Ohm. This will be a "true bypass" type mode for the amplifiers in the apogee.

Now you can just set levels using the controls on the pre, and the metering on the apogee or your tapedeck, no need to look at the pre. That's how I would do it.

As far as running "hot" for different mic types, I would *think* that it would make no difference. When you have the levels higher, you are essentially increasing the dynamic range of the recording. Maybe  people like the sound of the schoeps w/o the full dyn range, but IMHO if you are going to make a recording, take advantage of the full bandwidth of the recording medium.

cheers
the doc ;)

jpschust

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2002, 03:22:55 PM »
If you are gonna run mics, run em as hot as possible w/o overloading your circuits.  The AD1000 soft limit is great for this.  I can't stress this enough... hotter = more range = more sound.  


Offline phriendlyguy

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2002, 02:11:55 AM »
well i know how my mics sound good.  just wondering how others work.  and the mme i was thinking.  what is an a/d anyway.  truly a rig is only as good as the mics and preamp.  i hate to say it but apogee lacks in the pre department. again i await the V3.  (AD1000 ;D) mme :P

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2002, 10:01:27 AM »
Hye,

I'm guessing you are judging the pre in the MME with the 4v tapes... those tapes just kinda stink.  The pre is a great pre as compared to the 1000, await my tapes :-P

Jonny

Offline twoodruff

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2002, 03:59:03 PM »
Johnny--

I do hope to hear your tapes. I will be getting my u89s in this week to add to the 140s already in my closet. What T- bar are you using to hold the 170s up? I am going to be using the v3 with the ad1k and comparing the v3 a>d with that of the ad1k and the mod sbm-1.
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jpschust

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2002, 04:18:53 PM »
For my T bar I use the Shure Vertical mount.  With mics that big and heavy aint no way you are gonna be getting exact 20cm ORTF spacing.  It's just honestly too hard in the field to do.  So, I just guestimate it.  You can run the 170's sideways and get exactly the same sound as you would if you ran them vertically (polar 3 dimensional patterning).

Jonny

Offline wildman_at_large

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2002, 04:19:01 PM »
"Essentially maximizing the frequency responce of the recording by using all the bandwidth."
 Are you trying to say that a preamps bandwidth is a function of it's gain ? Can you point to any published data to support this ? I looked around and they all seem to say different , maybe I missed something ? I always thought you pushed a gain stage hard for coloration.  Please provide some facts to back this up, thanks.

Offline Bri

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2002, 05:53:46 PM »
you are hot for me wildman!

I am saying that in the digital domain as well as in analog, the more information you put onto the tape without exceeding the limitations (bandwidth of the format), the better sounding tape you will get. You CAN NOT argue here because that is the reality.

"Are you trying to say that a preamps bandwidth is a function of it's gain ? "

I dont even understand that question...

Let me make an analogy, assuming you understand how a->d auctually works....
In 16/48 (DAT standard) audio you have a sine wave with a 16 bit word resolution, so essentially, 65,536 (if I did my math correct) graduations per word, with a total of 48,000 words recorded a second. If you made a recording only using half of the possible 65,536 possibilities, you would essentially be making an 8 bit recording (256 possibilities). When you crank the A/D to it's threshhold you are excersising the entire capability of the format.

Think of it like your computer monitor, when it is in 8 bit color mode, you have a mavimum of 256 colors!

I really dont want to give a lecture, but check around the internet about how a/d and d/a works. You provide me your facts and links, I'll provide the website to post them on.

peace!
bri

Offline scervin

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2002, 12:36:24 PM »
Trey...... U89's :o  What can Ben say now???? ;D  
BTW, tapes and check are on the way!!!
SC

Offline twoodruff

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2002, 01:12:10 PM »
Ben will never know, HA!! gonna run u89s with an oade as well  ???  never seen that but will be interesting to see, loved the sound of my 140s with the oade. I thought the 140s were a bit too thin to run with a v2 but the u89s sound be able to fill in the holes when being used with the v3. Hope to see you on tour somewhere Scott!!
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Offline scervin

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2002, 02:27:48 PM »
I can't wait to hear the Geffels run into the V3 as I might have to get that if I can't find a "Southern Brick" to run with them.  Good luck, have fun and I'm sure our paths will cross. X-mas jam is on my list!
SC

Offline phriendlyguy

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2002, 04:06:36 PM »
whats a "southern brick"?  is this common lingo, never heard it.  

Offline twoodruff

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2002, 04:10:05 PM »
A "southern brick" is an oade preamp. They are known this way because of their look. They have no bells or whistles, just a black box. I have a m148 and it has an on/off switch and two ins, two outs, I had to label which way was on, but I m a "special" taper. Or I was in "special" classes atleast.
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Offline phriendlyguy

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2002, 04:20:01 PM »
oades have a 248 as well?  whats the difference if this exists?  what is the gain set at?  do you get to pick?  heard good things about it, just dont know the facts.  PEACE

Offline mde420

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2002, 04:26:39 PM »
here's the link http://www.oade.com/audiocenter/preamps.html

Cervin spun me up a copy of the Hookah show he taped at the Magic Bag in the Detroit area back in June.  Anyway, I believe it was the m148 he had in here, but man did it rock.  Hookah is usually a bass heavy band, and the m200's with the "brick" just rocked.  I know he loves his V2, but I guess I need to hear some more tapes of his rig.  They are pricey, but they are considered the "best" for live recording.

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Offline phriendlyguy

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2002, 04:39:34 PM »
fixed gain @ 20db works.  i would love to field test one of these bad boys.  when i ran straight into my AD1000, i kept it at 20db always.  i like to be able to adjust the gain in the pre, but i guess i am just spoiled with the V2, and like to see the red lights flashing.  although i dont think i have ever run it hotter than 35 or 40db.  i guess the oades not an option with the mme, unless your sober enough to keep finding the cal pots.  whats your opinion on that?  

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2002, 04:47:42 PM »
The m148 is set at around 16 I believe, works out pretty good for me, I can run the a>d pretty hot. The m248 has gain settings, but I ve never used one so I cant comment on where they are set. I have had both a m148 and v2 for use with my 140s. I found both useable in different situations, but for more occasions, the oade was more preferable to my ears.
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Offline phriendlyguy

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2002, 04:54:52 PM »
i would love to hear some tapes.  since i am not going to go spend 1300 on one, and dont know anyone that owns one.  shoot me an email.  i am down trade something, to hear a 140>148 recording.  i run those mics, so i am very interested in different combos with them.  Thanks PEACE  
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Offline scervin

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2002, 08:06:54 AM »
"although i dont think i have ever run it hotter than 35 or 40db"  :o  (gotta love these little guys!)  I don't think I've run mine any hotter than 20dB. I usually stick to 10dB or 15dB as that lets me run the modSBM-1 at nearly 10.  
SC

Offline phriendlyguy

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2002, 01:15:34 PM »
little guys?  whats that supposed to mean.  i get better sound with more fire to the mics.  if they aren't pickin up all the sound they can, whats the point? a/d is just changing the signal,  highly overated.  believe me i have tryed it both ways.  i used to run an sbm-1 out of the V2, it just wasn't right with it up that high.  i kept the sbm down around 4.  what are you runnin, a stereo mic in the bathroom?  or probably those AKGs that sound like they have a paper bag over em.  its funny all the servers we upload shit to, rave that the tapes we make are some of the best they have ever heard.  educate yourself.

Offline scervin

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2002, 01:31:29 PM »
name doesn't seem to fit  :-\  As far as the little guy's I was talking about the faces you can put in the posts. Educate myself hummm... I think I've done that (Engr degree and currently going towards Integrated Vehicle System MSE)  The A/D uses a variable resistor therefore atteunating the signal (introduces noise) and that gain, well less is more really. Oh and your not doing anything to the mics, you just boost the signal with gain, it just makes it louder.  This also introduces noise.  I just commented on how much gain I use, never was knocking your preference.  You said you could live with the fixed gain of 20dB correct?? I once tried the V2 at 25dB and had to be at 4 on the modsbm-1 and that is not where I would like to run it. Thanks for your input though. I've run AKG 480's, but I currently run Microtech Geffel  M200 or M210>V2>modSBM-1. Curious to know your playback system??
SC

Offline schoeps t00bes

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2002, 03:17:30 PM »
Hey Phriendlyguy, mutual respect will make this forum much more fun!  I think he has a good point about how "hot" you run your V2.  Having owned one and loved it, and talking to Mike Grace about how he would run it since I owned unit #0002 which was his original prototype unit, I can give all V2 owners this advice.  Read the owner's manual where it talks about the red clipping lights!!!!!

I personally cannot imagine running the V2 to the point where the clipping lights come on. More gain equals more noise and more distortion.  I have always found that the best results are yielded by keeping all resistor circuits as open as possible.  However, all of us have different tastes and we should run our gear in a manner that satisfies them.  Every tech person I know understands that a variable resistor used as a level control should be set on or near maximum for the best possible performance.  As long as you can get enough level, a preamp on a low gain setting will sound cleaner .  

Now, having said all that, I have to say the noise and distortion is so low and headroom so high in the V2 that running it as high as 40 dB is not a problem in most instances.  However, I will stick to what the Mike Grace says....
Fuck MSG!!!

Offline phriendlyguy

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2002, 05:17:54 PM »
sorry for getting defensive, i thought scervin ment that i didnt know what i was talking about.  i have run both ways, and red is good as far as i have heard.  read the manual, and tryed things tell i found the sound i liked.  if you guys want to e-mail me with you addresses i'll send you some of these robert shows we taped.  listen for yourselves.  i think different mics react differently to how hot the pre is, as the original post on this page.  i ran geffel 300s before i got the neumanns, and didnt run as hot, but still up around 30.  again i apologize for the disrespect.  get in touch. have some extras.  PEACE  
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Offline schoeps t00bes

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2002, 12:56:06 AM »
No problem Phriendlyguy, we all get passionate about our rigs and taping in general sometimes!!  I also want to clarify one more thing with this thread.

I run my Schoeps tubes hot, meaning my levels are peaking at roughly -2 to 0 the entire show.  I try to run them as hot as possible without overloading my circuits.  So, by leaving the resistor circuits on my NT222's wide open and cranking the P-1 to between 8-10 depending on the show I am still gettting the full dynamic range and therefore more sound on my tape without running the chance of clipping.


Fuck MSG!!!

Offline ben

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2002, 03:39:26 PM »
The m248 is a variable gain  PCB-based design.  The m148 is a fixed gain unit (20db).  The m248 was designed to add a HF emphasis generally to compensate for HF loss in Taper sections at venues like red rocks.   The m148 has a warmer tone that is in some ways tube-like...although it is infact a solid state design.  I like the m148 much better...and i have run both of them wuite a bit.  I find the m248 to be fatiguing...especially if run with mics like km140s, schoeps 4v;s...or other models which already feature a slight HF boost.  The m248 is out of production since what...like mid 1999.   I cant remember,  The m248 retailed for around 850 I believe...and the m148 (which doug still makes although the waiting list is considerably more than a year long) sells for 1300.   Both units, however, feature inpecable craftsmanship and will last a lifetime in the worst taping situations.  Designed by a taper for tapers...


DOug has said for a while he will be coming out with the m248i...which will be anoher mass-produced pcb-based deisgn that will be some what of an integration b/w the 148 and the 248.  Well see....he's been sayin this for like 2 years now.  His neck is still in bad shape...and he continues with surgery and recovery cycles.

Ben      

Offline phriendlyguy

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2002, 02:05:32 PM »
hey thanks for the full update, i was really starting to wonder.

Offline twoodruff

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Re:some like it hot?
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2002, 07:10:44 PM »
so the technical geek comes in a ruins this topic, way to go ben, i got the batteries by the way. thanks partner, hope you didn t mind me posting your picture on this here site.
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