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Author Topic: Got mics and recorder need preamp help  (Read 2037 times)

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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2020, 09:14:11 PM »
Try the H4N first.Never tried it, but why not.  Depends on how much the mics output and how quiet the source is.Worth a try.
Good luck.
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline sound bites

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2020, 05:22:18 PM »
i replied to the Shure Fp24 but its over a year old....
i think the zoom is just fine for recording, just need a preamp to get that sound
Just to clarify: the H4n does not have line level inputs, only XLR mic and TRS instrument level. You would need to use an in-line attenuator to get unclipped sound in from your preamp.

Offline voltronic

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2020, 07:38:34 AM »
i replied to the Shure Fp24 but its over a year old....
i think the zoom is just fine for recording, just need a preamp to get that sound
Just to clarify: the H4n does not have line level inputs, only XLR mic and TRS instrument level. You would need to use an in-line attenuator to get unclipped sound in from your preamp.

Yes the XLR outputs on the FP-24 are very hot in level, but there's an easier way. Use the 1/8" output on the FP-24 into the H4n. No attenuator needed. Many FP-24 owners have done this, and that's how I connect to my M10.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

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Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2020, 09:08:31 AM »
i replied to the Shure Fp24 but its over a year old....
i think the zoom is just fine for recording, just need a preamp to get that sound
Just to clarify: the H4n does not have line level inputs, only XLR mic and TRS instrument level. You would need to use an in-line attenuator to get unclipped sound in from your preamp.

Yes the XLR outputs on the FP-24 are very hot in level, but there's an easier way. Use the 1/8" output on the FP-24 into the H4n. No attenuator needed. Many FP-24 owners have done this, and that's how I connect to my M10.

Yep, I ran TAPE OUT like this many times with my M10.

Offline sound bites

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2020, 12:53:03 PM »
i replied to the Shure Fp24 but its over a year old....
i think the zoom is just fine for recording, just need a preamp to get that sound
Just to clarify: the H4n does not have line level inputs, only XLR mic and TRS instrument level. You would need to use an in-line attenuator to get unclipped sound in from your preamp.

Yes the XLR outputs on the FP-24 are very hot in level, but there's an easier way. Use the 1/8" output on the FP-24 into the H4n. No attenuator needed. Many FP-24 owners have done this, and that's how I connect to my M10.

Yep, I ran TAPE OUT like this many times with my M10.

OK, it‘s not what I would do, but I guess aux level at -10 dBu will work.

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2020, 01:29:26 PM »

Yep, I ran TAPE OUT like this many times with my M10.

OK, it‘s not what I would do, but I guess aux level at -10 dBu will work.

tape out is +11dBU which is still pretty hot
currently "banned" for this "controversial" post
email me if you need to connect

re:this R700 door issue (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=196992.0;topicseen) you need to lubricate the mechanism so the limit switch that makes-on-open gets full contact. a hack is a quick tug on the metal bar below where the tape sits, wil close the switch and prevent retraction

Offline voltronic

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2020, 08:23:26 PM »

Yep, I ran TAPE OUT like this many times with my M10.

OK, it‘s not what I would do, but I guess aux level at -10 dBu will work.

tape out is +11dBU which is still pretty hot

This sounded crazy high, so I checked the manual.  That's stated as clipping level, so wouldn't nominal level be much lower?  In practice, I have never overloaded the inputs of my M10 or anything else connected to the TAPE OUT of the FP-24.  With the LINE out, that's a different story.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2020, 02:45:06 AM »
This sounded crazy high, so I checked the manual.  That's stated as clipping level, so wouldn't nominal level be much lower?  In practice, I have never overloaded the inputs of my M10 or anything else connected to the TAPE OUT of the FP-24.  With the LINE out, that's a different story.

'clipping level' should ideally always be close to 0dBFS on your recorder

'nominal level' is wherever you set it

we are actually agreeing here, that the tape-out level is plenty hot and not a low level -10dBU compromise of dynamic range
currently "banned" for this "controversial" post
email me if you need to connect

re:this R700 door issue (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=196992.0;topicseen) you need to lubricate the mechanism so the limit switch that makes-on-open gets full contact. a hack is a quick tug on the metal bar below where the tape sits, wil close the switch and prevent retraction

Offline drfunkenstein2k

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2020, 03:01:01 AM »
i found in the Yard Sale Shure-FP24 for $240 shippped, what do you guys think?

Offline voltronic

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2020, 07:27:42 AM »
This sounded crazy high, so I checked the manual.  That's stated as clipping level, so wouldn't nominal level be much lower?  In practice, I have never overloaded the inputs of my M10 or anything else connected to the TAPE OUT of the FP-24.  With the LINE out, that's a different story.

'clipping level' should ideally always be close to 0dBFS on your recorder

'nominal level' is wherever you set it

we are actually agreeing here, that the tape-out level is plenty hot and not a low level -10dBU compromise of dynamic range

I got it now; thanks.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline drfunkenstein2k

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2020, 07:36:23 AM »
Berliner CM-33 (Pair) > shure FP24 > Zoom H4n recorder.

should be decent right?

Offline carpa

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2020, 12:39:39 PM »
About the risk of feeding hot signal into the Zoom: if I recall fine, the H4n doesn't accept signals as hot as the improved H5 and H6. I second the advice not to spend so much money trying to improve the H4n, but if you go that route better check the overload risk anyway....

I own a Zoom H6 which I like (flexibility, 6 channels, interchangeable  capsule for point and shoot). In close- medium miking, both with stock capsules and external mics I can pull  good noise free recordings, but it's preamps get a bit noisy going beyond 6/10 of the dial range. So absolutely usable and flexible but with some limitations in terms of distance/mic sensitivity/music genre. Plugging in my Naiant Littlebox gives better results sound wise, but not really an appreciable upgrade in noise performance. Tried to plug my Audient evo4 interface  out to Zoom input and I can get an audible less noise. The EIN of my interface ( -129db) is a lot better than -120db on the Zoom so, still not bypassing the recorder's preamps there is still a plus. BUT I need to engage the -20 pad on the recorder, otherwise the overload risk is there.  Don't know if the H4n has an attenuation pad.

 A viable solution if you want to keep the H4n could be a couple of fethead phantom inline preamps. The Phantom version passes power to the mics after keeping a part for self powering and it should give a 18 db boost with less gain needed from the recorder.  There is a video by Curtis Judd on YouTube testing these gadget with H4n and the improvement sounds substantial, as shown also in a DAW.   Yet it is a matter of thinking if spending 150 bucks for these....however the improvement with the old H4n is there, more questionable with better stock preamps as, while very convenient, unobtrusive and cable free it is always a preamp feeding another preamp. Berliner 33 had a - 40 db sensitivity so you'll end up turning them into a -22 mic; maybe still too hot?
I also would sell the H4n....

Offline drfunkenstein2k

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2020, 02:00:46 AM »
ok guys 1st i made a mistake my recorder is the Zoom H4n PRO
according to chris judd on youtube the preamps are  the same to the h5 and h6

Offline carpa

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Re: Got mics and recorder need preamp help
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2020, 03:32:17 AM »
Ok, this is better than the older version. Still, it doesn't have input pads like H5 and H6 and I'm not sure about what the max input level is on the 4nPro but I think is -10.  H5 and h5 specs say +2 without the pad and +22 with the pad engaged.

Before everything, did you already try your mics with the H4n Pro? Then, at which distance from the source did you place the mics? What kind of source were you recording?   I looked at the specs and they are rated at -40db sensitivity and -22 Self noise, which is quite a bit on the high side.  I suspect the noise you hear is the microphone self-noise before the Zoom shows his preamp limitations. You need to move closer to the source, and you should with any preamps I guess.  Do you have any other mic with less noise just to give a try?

 

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