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Author Topic: Three mics - two cards XY and one omni. Working?  (Read 369 times)

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Offline Popmarter

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Three mics - two cards XY and one omni. Working?
« on: June 02, 2021, 02:37:13 PM »
Picture this.
 >:D situation. Typical 500 people venue, black box. Hanging PA and some on stage.
Cards in XY setup and one  omni mic above it. FOB.

XY could be a bit thin, lacking low end, they say. Not sure if that would be the case in this scenario. If so, would a third omni mic help in this situation? Or be necessary? Any experiences?
Recorders: SD MixPre 3 II; Sony A10; Edirol R44; Sony M10; Sony WM-D6; Edirol R-09HR; iRiver IHP-120; Sharp MD-MT20; Sharp MD-MT190
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Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Three mics - two cards XY and one omni. Working?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2021, 04:33:32 PM »
I did this in an awful room (bar) for the same reason and debated whether or not to even use the omni in the final mix. I ended up mixing it in -10 db. I knew there would be a lot chatter so ended up recording just the background noise and used noise reduction -3db and it seemed to help. You also have the option of EQing the bass up (or putting a warm plugin) on the cards. I'd say more channels is more options!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Three mics - two cards XY and one omni. Working?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2021, 07:34:34 PM »
Well, you can always record it all to separate tracks and figure it out if it was worthwhile later by playing around with it in various ways.  You don't have to use it all.  I'm a big proponent of that. Its a good way to learn what works and what doesn't.

It makes sense to low-pass the omni afterward and just use it to fill in where the cardioid response drops off.  No one will call you crazy for doing that.  But it may not be that useful in an awful room.

If you aren't low-passing the omni you'll get a lot of monophonic reverberance.  A cardioid pattern is 50% omni and 50% bi-directional, so you have a lot of omni already without any spacing between coincident X/Y elements to decorellate the reverberant pickup. You really need to increase the angle between X/Y cardioids to compensate even without the omni, but that's problematic in a bad room. 

In general if I was recording an omni too and not low-passing it I'd want to space the cardioids out more than I would otherwise..  and if I did that I'd feel free to use less angle between the cardioids in a Point At Stacks arrangement that would be likely to work much better in an awful room.  In a bad room I'd Point At Stacks with sufficient spacing between mics to compensate for the narrow angle.. regardless of any omni or not (and probably not). 

If stuck with X/Y for whatever reason, consider vertical spacing on the stand, with the omni up a lot higher than the X/Y pair.  That will decorellate the high and mid frequency room pickup of the omni in comparison the the X/Y pair at least.
 
 
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline crackmc

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Re: Three mics - two cards XY and one omni. Working?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2021, 10:47:59 PM »
i’ve been toying with the idea of running split omnis w/ a cardioid in the center
or AB hypers with an omni in the middle
or a pair of __________ in a ___________ config with a __________ in the middle
…and encoding them to mid-side


i’ve been mildly obsessed since seeing the Reaper YouTube tutorial mid-side video
you'll love it
it's a way of life

Offline dyneq

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Re: Three mics - two cards XY and one omni. Working?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2021, 10:50:40 PM »
Since we’re talking LTO (less than open), I agree with Gutbucket that PAS with cards would work well. I use this method with a fixed distance and angle and try to position where the angle matches the stacks. If you can maximize proximity effect by getting closer, you will have more to work with in post.

Full PAS thread for reference (thanks, Gutbucket!):
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.0

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Three mics - two cards XY and one omni. Working?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2021, 09:58:04 AM »
^ I like dyneq's approach.
I overlooked the OP comment that this is a >:D situation, so the option of placing the omni high above the X/Y pair is obviously out.

I'd say go with near-spaced PAS cardioids from the center of the sweet spot up front if you can.  If X/Y, move a bit closer without placing yourself forward of the horizontal high-frequency radiation pattern drop off of the PA, which essentially defines the forward edge of the sweet spot.  That position will best fit the wider pickup angle of X/Y, and the proximity and impact there with a predominance of direct-sound will make the tendency toward a more monophonic ambient pickup and the need for the omni to extend bass response less important.


musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Popmarter

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Re: Three mics - two cards XY and one omni. Working?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2021, 04:35:19 AM »
Thanks for the replies. I read the PAS piece from Gutbucked, excellent although bit too dufficult to understand complete.

I was running into some phase issues running PAS as mics (nevaton) were rather close to each other (10 cm). so i might try XY someday to see that fix things in those situations.
Recorders: SD MixPre 3 II; Sony A10; Edirol R44; Sony M10; Sony WM-D6; Edirol R-09HR; iRiver IHP-120; Sharp MD-MT20; Sharp MD-MT190
Microphones: Nevaton MC59/S (cards); Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 7.4mod (cards); AT831 (cards); Nakamichi CM300 (all CP's); Soundman OKM II Rock Studios
Preamps: Beyerdynamic MV100; JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b; Naiant IPA; Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Three mics - two cards XY and one omni. Working?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2021, 12:10:54 PM »
Here's the basic gist:

In less than ideal acoustic situations, it pays to make efforts toward getting the clearest recording of the PA as possible.  Good clarity is more important than a nice wide stereo image.  Easiest way to do that is get closer, and point a pair of directional mics directly at the PA speakers.  When you do that you'll find that in many situations the resulting angle between the microphones isn't very large, often less than 90 degrees.  So in the interest of making an even better recording with decent stereo qualities in addition to good clarity, it helps to use more spacing between microphones to compensate for the overly narrow angle between them.  The whole improved PAS thing is all about determining the most appropriate spacing based on whatever the angle between mics ends up being when you point them at the PA speakers.  As the angle becomes narrower, the spacing becomes greater, and vice-versa.  That increased spacing helps to improve the stereo qualities.  It can also help reduce problematic phase interaction problems.  It will at least shift the comb filtering around in frequency, possibly making it less audibly problematic.

X/Y takes that the opposite direction.  Because there is less spacing between microphones (none at all), phase differences between channels are minimized.  Ideally you would want to use increased angle between the microphones to retain good stereo qualities, but that may point the microphones well outside the PA making clarity suffer.   However, if you find that a coincident X/Y configuration solves the phase interaction problems that may be more important to you than getting a wider stereo image.  If you are okay with the more narrow/monophonic stereo quality that results from X/Y using a relatively narrow angle needed to keep the mics pointed toward the PA so as to retain clarity, no problem. You might then play with how wide you can angle the mics while still retaining sufficient clarity from the PA.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 12:29:34 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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